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[anV6]

If GM were willing to develop a V8 insignia that would be an interesting concept, built as a proper executive express and only with 7 speed maybe 4x4?
automatic transmission so as not to compete with the VXR?
Full of kit discussed previously it may work but the V8 would intrude on the floor pan making it smaller and less cabin space for people?

Question is would it work, Audi RS4 rival or more subtle because you don't want to compromise VXR sales?

When you say compete with the VXR, do you mean the VXR8 or are you talking about the VXR branch in general? Because like I mentioned before, they don't need to worry about competing with the VXR8. It will only be around till around fall. The VXR8 is EOL. It is being discontinued with all the other Commodore variants. 

If they use a modified version of the Insignia platform, I'm sure a V8 could be made to fit. This is what Holden did to fit a V8 to the Omega platform. Modified it.

[Doctor Gollum]

Time to debunk a few myths...

Firstly, The Elite is a model within the Insignia range, not a stand alone product.
Secondly, the VXR8 is exactly the same length as the Insignia, the perceived difference stems from the fact that the chassis is wider.
Thirdly, you won't get an LSx engine anywhere within the front of the Insignia.
Fourthly, Buick is pitched as a premium brand using rebadged European models, including two variations of the Insignia platform. You will also note that half its product line are SUVs.
Finally, HSV is owned by both Holden and Walkinshaw Racing and was established to develop Holden as a motorsport contender in the late 80's. The VXR8 is a rebadged HSV R8, which in turn a Holden VE/F Commodore SS that has been driven through the Australian equivalent of Halfords.

[Doctor Gollum]

As for trolling... Utter pish.

My Grandparents and their parents gave everything to presrve the concept of certain freedoms, including free speech. So I reserve as much right to disagree with your views, and comment on those views, as you have to hold and express them yourself.

[Pmacca2000]

My thought was that VXR is VXs sports brand and the premium brand would compliment that, not compete aganst it. VXR is all about pure performance and the premium branded car is all about comfort opulent soroundings, with the ability to exploit the V8 if it has to do so.
As for the insignia platform, I was aiming for the class above as other than the VXR8 VX has nothing in that class, by its very nature the insignia is everywre as a popular company car.
One thing no one wants is VX to develop a £50-60,000 car that looks exactly like a standard insignia.
If the VXR8 and insignia are the same length, would GM widen the platform as a base for a new HSV performance car?

[anV6]

My thought was that VXR is VXs sports brand and the premium brand would compliment that, not compete aganst it. VXR is all about pure performance and the premium branded car is all about comfort opulent soroundings, with the ability to exploit the V8 if it has to do so.
As for the insignia platform, I was aiming for the class above as other than the VXR8 VX has nothing in that class, by its very nature the insignia is everywre as a popular company car.
One thing no one wants is VX to develop a £50-60,000 car that looks exactly like a standard insignia.
If the VXR8 and insignia are the same length, would GM widen the platform as a base for a new HSV performance car?

VXR is to Vauxhall what OPC is to Opel. Over here people still see OPC as just an Opel. Just a more expensive one, or to some a more chaved up Opel. Is VXR perceived as something special as of lately in the UK?

If the premium brand is to be done right, people will have to be able to forget/overlook/not know it is a Vauxhall all together. This is the point. So I disagree it should complement VXR. It should be its own thing. VXR is "just" Vauxhall. The point of the premium brand is to distance itself from Vauxhall so it can sell cars for more money and for that reason, better cars. Exactly the same as Acura, Infinity and Lexus.  If it will be its own thing I don't think it would compete with VXR, even if it also offered performance models. Because they would have to be performance-luxury and VXR is not luxury or premium. So in my opinion it wouldn't compete with VXR. But I see your point.

I agree with you that nobody wants an expensive car that looks exactly like a standard insignia. This is not what I meant. Using the same platform doesn't mean looking like it. They don't even have to use the Insignia. It would be just more feasible to happen since it's the largest current made Opel platform. But they could as well use the Alpha platform or even build an entirely new one. There are all sorts of possibilities. But the more complex and expensive, the less likely it is for them to do it. To be honest, I don't see them doing it at all. But it's fun to ponder and discuss it.

But one thing is for sure. If they would of do it, I think it would be better to be a single brand for the whole of Europe. Not a separated names for UK and Continental Europe.

From the information that is out so far, it's looking like the new Holden Commodore will be just a rebadged new shape Insignia. To be honest I don't think Holden will do anything to it, as they didn't with the other imported Opels they have had. They just stuck a Holden badge on them.

As for the HSV versions, it will be interesting to see what they come up with. There are people who fear for HSV's demise. Regardless, I'm sure they will focus only on the AWD versions. So maybe Commodores will be all FWD and the AWD versions will be reserved for HSV to help differentiate it. But probably not. Who knows. The thing is HSV has to do a lot if they want to stand out. Because the OPC/VXR Insignia is already enhanced. So for HSV to really make it better they have to be serious about it. If they would go all out and put a V8 in it, it would only make it easier for a Vauxhall/Opel premium brand to do the same by using the platform. But that would cost a lot more. Or they may choose to break with HSV tradition of large displacements and go V6 twin turbo or something. But then the question is, is there a real need for HSV if they can't be HSV? Or is Holden better off just importing VXR Insignias? It's all too early to tell and nobody but Holden and HSV know at this point. 

[Pmacca2000]

In my opinion VXRs fall into different categories, corsa and Astra maybe Chavy but insignia and VXR8 are recognised as a bit different.

I was cultivating the idea that VX could have a premium brand as well as the VXR performance brand, I came up with elite and used the VXR8 platform as examples of how the car could be marketed.

Trying to sell an up market insignia would be a waist of time and money but the idea of useing different bodywork and far more kit with a different badge would put the car in a place above the standard VX and put distance between the brands?

Ideally the luxury car should match the power of the VXR sports brand but have power in reserve rather than be telling everyone wha it's about.

[Doctor Gollum]

Here's one they made earlier...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_XTS

Won't happen as long as I have a hole in my arse

Oh and it's wwd

[Nick W]

Trying to sell an up market insignia would be a waist of time and money but the idea of useing different bodywork and far more kit with a different badge would put the car in a place above the standard VX and put distance between the brands?

That's exactly what they tried with the last Saab: it's not obviously Insignia based until you park them side by side and compare them closely. Even using an established and well regarded brand wasn't enough: we all know how that experiment ended.


As an Insignia is already bigger than an Omega and engineered for a transverse engine, a bigger RWD V8 would be forced into the tiny and niche S-class/7 series/XJ market. And GM are never going to create an orphan platform for just a few thousand sales(if they're lucky!) each year. The big RWD Fords were deleted for the same reasons. Those other manufacturers use RWD in their other models, and share the parts with them: the 7 and 5 series have been basically the same car for generations.


Lexus succeded because many of the expensive parts were designed to be shared with other vehicles: the V8 was used in their big 4x4s, and the straight sixes were already in use. They also managed to launch a developed at any cost Mercedes competitor at the time MB were publicly going the other way. Honda and Nissan's attempts to do the same have hardly been a success, have you even seen an Infiniti or Legend outside of a showroom?

[Mr Gav]

Here's one they made earlier...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_XTS

Won't happen as long as I have a hole in my arse

Oh and it's wwd

Good cause it`s as ugly as sin 

[anV6]

In my opinion VXRs fall into different categories, corsa and Astra maybe Chavy but insignia and VXR8 are recognised as a bit different.

I was cultivating the idea that VX could have a premium brand as well as the VXR performance brand, I came up with elite and used the VXR8 platform as examples of how the car could be marketed.

Trying to sell an up market insignia would be a waist of time and money but the idea of useing different bodywork and far more kit with a different badge would put the car in a place above the standard VX and put distance between the brands?

Ideally the luxury car should match the power of the VXR sports brand but have power in reserve rather than be telling everyone wha it's about.

Is VXR really a separate badge? Like, do VXR cars say only VXR in the registration or do they say Vauxhall VXR? I'm not close with anybody who actually owns an OPC, but I'm pretty sure it says Opel Astra OPC or something. OPC not being the brand but more a trim or series.

Like I already said, I completely agree with you on the Insignia.

It would have to be something that would be different enough. Look for example at the current Camaro and the current Cadillac CTS. Both use the Alpha platform. But it's hard to say they have a whole lot in common from a consumer's point of view. I very much doubt any trim of the Cadillac would drive anything like a ZL1.  So a platform is just a foundation. It doesn't have to be like an Insignia, as long as they don't cheap out.

[anV6]

Trying to sell an up market insignia would be a waist of time and money but the idea of useing different bodywork and far more kit with a different badge would put the car in a place above the standard VX and put distance between the brands?

That's exactly what they tried with the last Saab: it's not obviously Insignia based until you park them side by side and compare them closely. Even using an established and well regarded brand wasn't enough: we all know how that experiment ended.


As an Insignia is already bigger than an Omega and engineered for a transverse engine, a bigger RWD V8 would be forced into the tiny and niche S-class/7 series/XJ market. And GM are never going to create an orphan platform for just a few thousand sales(if they're lucky!) each year. The big RWD Fords were deleted for the same reasons. Those other manufacturers use RWD in their other models, and share the parts with them: the 7 and 5 series have been basically the same car for generations.


Lexus succeded because many of the expensive parts were designed to be shared with other vehicles: the V8 was used in their big 4x4s, and the straight sixes were already in use. They also managed to launch a developed at any cost Mercedes competitor at the time MB were publicly going the other way. Honda and Nissan's attempts to do the same have hardly been a success, have you even seen an Infiniti or Legend outside of a showroom?

Talking from an UK perspective right? In the U.S., the largest car market in the world, both Acura and Infinity are successful. 

I know the proposed brand we are discussing would have to compete in the European market. But Honda and Nissan being Japanese are in a very big disadvantage before they even begin to compete in Europe. The only snobbery stronger than that against popular European cars is the one against Japanese and Korean cars. So Opel would be starting from a place of more acceptance already.

As for the Saab 9-5, it had quite a few problems before we even start to look at the Epsilon platform. It was developed and released during a time Saab was a mess and about to be shut down. They definitely not only rushed it out but cheaped out as well. Have you driven one? I have. Because I really like the way it looks. But when you get behind the wheel it just scares any good impressions the looks may have had on you away. I was seriously considering buying one till I drove it. I don't think it's fair to blame it all on being based on the Insignia. The Insignia is actually better than it in most ways besides the external looks IMO.

[Nick W]

Talking from an UK perspective right? In the U.S., the largest car market in the world, both Acura and Infinity are successful. 

I know the proposed brand we are discussing would have to compete in the European market. But Honda and Nissan being Japanese are in a very big disadvantage before they even begin to compete in Europe. The only snobbery stronger than that against popular European cars is the one against Japanese and Korean cars. So Opel would be starting from a place of more acceptance already.

UK, yes.


But Honda and Nissan were hardly unsuccessful in America before they created 'new' brands.


And as for snobbery against Asian cars in favour of European ones, you ARE joking? Toyota/Nissan/Honda in a car-as-white-goods/wake-me-up-for-the=test-drive/dull-dull-dull sort of way are mass market cars, and Hyundai and Kia's market share is increasing year after year. Fiat has long been a joke in the UK, and the French manufacturer's share is fading fast.

[anV6]

Talking from an UK perspective right? In the U.S., the largest car market in the world, both Acura and Infinity are successful. 

I know the proposed brand we are discussing would have to compete in the European market. But Honda and Nissan being Japanese are in a very big disadvantage before they even begin to compete in Europe. The only snobbery stronger than that against popular European cars is the one against Japanese and Korean cars. So Opel would be starting from a place of more acceptance already.

UK, yes.


But Honda and Nissan were hardly unsuccessful in America before they created 'new' brands.


And as for snobbery against Asian cars in favour of European ones, you ARE joking? Toyota/Nissan/Honda in a car-as-white-goods/wake-me-up-for-the=test-drive/dull-dull-dull sort of way are mass market cars, and Hyundai and Kia's market share is increasing year after year. Fiat has long been a joke in the UK, and the French manufacturer's share is fading fast.

I'm talking about continental Europe. They never managed to make a dent here to the point of Toyota giving up in trying to make Lexus work here.The UK has the advantage of being RHD like Japan. That certainly helps.

 Kia and Hyundai market share is increasing here too. Mainly because of the 7 years warranty and the cheap price. But the same is happening to Dacia for example. I see more and more of them on the road. But they are not premium. Nobody here sees any Japanese cars as a serious alternative to Mercedes, BMW, Audi or even VW.

As for French cars, here the joke is, they already start rusting on the brochures. 

[Doctor Gollum]

Considering the correct side of the road, I would wager there are more lefthand drive cars in Japan than there are righthand drive cars on the Iberian peninsula 

[Pmacca2000]

So reinstate the 100,000 mile warranty to the whole VX range and launch a car in the executive class, with a standard kit as mentions above and we are on the right track?