Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Varche on 30 October 2011, 18:23:28
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I know that there are three taboo subjects for forums.(Religion, politics and sex) but I can't help having to post on the protestors outside St Pauls cathedral.
What would Jesus have said? I think he would have joined the protestors.
Do I think the church has handled the situation well? An emphatic no. They have behaved no better than the capitalists banking pigs that the protestors are railing against.
Do I think the protestors are making a valid protest? Yes. For everyone of them there (including any rent a mob individuals or misguided souls) there are many, many more sitting at home in the warm and dry feeling the same thing.
Should people be allowed to protest? Yes It is a fundamental part of our democracy. Remember the "grubby urchin women" at Greenham Common villified by the British public and the Press. Well they succeeded in their protest. Without that and the swell of public opinion, I have no doubt whatsoever that we would now have been a nuclear carrier for the Yanks.
It isn't a perfect world but with a bit of give and take St Pauls could and should have stayed open. They managed it during the war.
What do you think?
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They are the same faces who turn up at every anti capitalist/anti establishment event, all middle class rebels who live off daddies salary from his well paid capitalist job.They will grow up and get jobs as bankers/accountants/solicitors etc.
Most of the tents are empty at night time,as they have all gone home to their warm comfy beds under the roof of Mummy and Daddies house - mortaged by a bank,and paid for from Daddies salary.
Having listened to their "protests" on the news etc. I quickly came to the conclusion that they aint got the first idea what they are talking about.
People should have the right to protest in a free society as long as they dont interfere with other people going about their daily lives and businesses - this lot are interfering with other peoples lives etc. so I dont have much time for them.
If they stay there long enough to get in the way of remembrance day services that will be the time to turn the fire hoses on them.
If they are too dim to realise that the nation wishes to spend that day remembring those who fought and died to give them the right to protest,then they dont deserve to be listened to imo.
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If they are too dim to realise that the nation wishes to spend that day remembring those who fought and died to give them the right to protest,then they dont deserve to be listened to imo.
Very well said! :y
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What would Jesus have said/done ?
Well he threw the money men out of the temple,so I think his beef would be with the men of the cloth who run St. Pauls as a business rather than a place of worship for the most part.
Dont forget, the original banking crisis started because banks lent too much money to people who couldnt afford to pay it back,so its hardly surprising that they are very cautious about lending money now.They are also required to keep a lot more money "in stock" now by governments, so they dont have as much money to lend as they used to.
Share prices which were £10 plus around five years ago and dropped to around 5p within a year have only recovered to 50p at best, so they arent in the same position as they once were,which is probably why it was reported last week that bonuses have dropped this year by over 40%.
The industry is still very weak and trying to recover from the huge job losses etc it suffered about 3 years ago.
Two sides to evey coin Varche. ;)
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Do we really think there is a socialist utopia which we are being prevented from reaching by the "capitalist pigs" ? ::)
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What would Jesus have said/done ?
Well he threw the money men out of the temple,so I think his beef would be with the men of the cloth who run St. Pauls as a business rather than a place of worship for the most part. ...
A member of the audience on Question Time last week said the same ............... apparently its' £14.50 entrance fee! :o :o
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Jesus would have said...' Go Forth and Multiply, and get a job' ;D ;D
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What would Jesus have said/done ?
Well he threw the money men out of the temple,so I think his beef would be with the men of the cloth who run St. Pauls as a business rather than a place of worship for the most part. ...
A member of the audience on Question Time last week said the same ............... apparently its' £14.50 entrance fee! :o :o
Pretty sure when I walked past it a few weeks ago, just as these unclean were just setting up their protest, access was 'free' (as I didn't pay ::)) to the main part, but a 'donation' was encouraged. I walked out in disgust when a bit of nosh (my reason for entering) was gonna cost me £21.75 :o
It is in the toff area of London (so only other nosh was those wanky, overpriced sandwich bars), so I headed back towards Baker Street, and got my face around The Colonel's secret recipe of 11 herbs and spices, with change from a fiver iirc....
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The right to demonstrate is a fundamental right in the UK. This does not give anybody the right to stop individuals or businesses effectively going about their lawful activities.
Unfortunately, as we are too tolerant of idiots, we have allowed a culture of professional protester to become trendy, starting with that idiot Swampy back in the 90s
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Whatever happened to Swampy ?
Answer ? When his son was born he stated on the birth certificate that his job/profession was - market researcher. ::)
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If they dont like it, get on the ferry, vote with thier feet and F-off!
Nobody is making them stay here in this terrible corrupt capitalist horror of a place.
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Setting aside the encampment issues:
I am horrified to learn that the iconic locus of 'our' national-faith (effectively) charges admission fees to visitors/pilgrims. :o
Sadly......it would appear that, somewhere along the way, 'someone' appears to have taken the christian out of Christianity. :'(
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I think it's ridiculous that such a small number of protestors calling for a change to our accepted way of life should be given so much broadcast time. Anyone would think the BBC is in agreement with their demands. ;)
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Setting aside the encampment issues:
I am horrified to learn that the iconic locus of 'our' national-faith (effectively) charges admission fees to visitors/pilgrims. :o
Sadly......it would appear that, somewhere along the way, 'someone' appears to have taken the christian out of Christianity. :'(
Not wrong there, Debs. Sadly. :(
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from jesus to protesters
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e397/adam5172/even_jesus_hates_you-cheetos.jpg)
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Now then, BEFORE i start , let me clearly state i am a humanist agnostic, with atheistic leanings...
BUT..... i work professionally in a number of churches and other places of worship, on a regular basis... including St Paul's, (and Westminster Abbey, St Martin in the fields, St Bartholomew the great, St James's , all the regional cathedrals, etc etc , the list goes on) recording live events for broadcast on Classic Fm, and the BBC, and also, for classical music CD Album releases....
(This week for example, was recording a choral event , just round the corner from St Paul's, at St Batholomew the Great , in Cloth fair, just off West Smithfield... )
the running costs and maintenance of such buildings is astronomical, and in these days of reduced attendance, reduced income from collections and bequests , either they make what they can from the tourist, or the place falls down...
so.... no i do not think they've taken the christian out of christianity....
in the vast majority of places, access for private prayer is still free, (but wandering around taking photos, and saying oh gosh, is NOT praying... and the people running the place are NOT complete idiots ..... (okay, they have a bad case of religion, but other than that, they still have enough sense to catch out the cheapskate fee dodgers... )
some places set aside times of day for people to pray, others set aside non tourist access sections of the church..... but nowhere i've been charges the faithful to carry out the articles of their faith.
(frankly, I would...... but then i'm not one of them..... i'm a realist.... if you have an avenue to acquire legitimate funding for your survival, then use it i say..... )
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Setting aside the encampment issues:
I am horrified to learn that the iconic locus of 'our' national-faith (effectively) charges admission fees to visitors/pilgrims. :o
Sadly......it would appear that, somewhere along the way, 'someone' appears to have taken the christian out of Christianity. :'(
Welcome to modern-day Britain - where the new religion is the worship of the material and the result of its practice mere avarice. :(
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Now then, BEFORE i start , let me clearly state i am a humanist agnostic, with atheistic leanings...
BUT..... i work professionally in a number of churches and other places of worship, on a regular basis... including St Paul's, (and Westminster Abbey, St Martin in the fields, St Bartholomew the great, St James's , all the regional cathedrals, etc etc , the list goes on) recording live events for broadcast on Classic Fm, and the BBC, and also, for classical music CD Album releases....
(This week for example, was recording a choral event , just round the corner from St Paul's, at St Batholomew the Great , in Cloth fair, just off West Smithfield... )
the running costs and maintenance of such buildings is astronomical, and in these days of reduced attendance, reduced income from collections and bequests , either they make what they can from the tourist, or the place falls down...
so.... no i do not think they've taken the christian out of christianity....
in the vast majority of places, access for private prayer is still free, (but wandering around taking photos, and saying oh gosh, is NOT praying... and the people running the place are NOT complete idiots ..... (okay, they have a bad case of religion, but other than that, they still have enough sense to catch out the cheapskate fee dodgers... )
some places set aside times of day for people to pray, others set aside non tourist access sections of the church..... but nowhere i've been charges the faithful to carry out the articles of their faith.
(frankly, I would...... but then i'm not one of them..... i'm a realist.... if you have an avenue to acquire legitimate funding for your survival, then use it i say..... )
Considering the vast wealth organised religion holds Max - across all the main denominations - I would have thought 'they' could afford to give the punters a better deal all the same.
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The Anglican Church is an extremely wealthy organisation.It owns huge amounts of property,including many in west London - mayfair Knightsbridge etc. It also owns large forests and greenfield sites etc.It may well be the largest landowner in the country.
It also holds an enormous investment portfilio of bluechip shares, such as BP etc.
Perhaps the protesters should turn their angst on the church, as it seems to be more succesful at capitalism than the banks round the corner that they (and the hypocrites in the church) are complaining about. ;)
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might be taboo, but when it does crop it does crop up it makes interesting reading. ::)
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Do we really think there is a socialist utopia which we are being prevented from reaching by the "capitalist pigs" ? ::)
Yep, North Korea they have to keep their borders closed to keep us westerners out. ;D ;D ;D Brain washing, starving population, execution of locals trying to cross into China, is all Western propaganda spread by capitalist pigs, just like it was in the days of the USSR ::) ::) ::)
Socialism is so good, China hasn't thought of adopting capitalism to increase the countries wealth. :o :o :o
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:y ;) :)
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the Chinese game plan is as plain as the nose on my face.....
provide incredibly cheap manufacturing and labour, till they have total economic dominance of the planet, then increase the cost till it virtually bankrupts the rest of the world.... then take over, by economic necessity....
i know it, you know it, the governments know it, but are so beholden to the great god consumerism, that they are unable to do anything about it.
in 100 years time, we will ALL be chinese ruled.
it's simple economics.
sadly the vast overwhelming majority of consumers are too stupid and too greedy to spend their money elsewhere, and manufacturers in the west are faced with the choice of go to china to build, or go bust through being unable to compete.
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I agree on the short term view of using Chinese labour, western countries are allowing a closed society and dictatorship to gain much of their technology. Not all countries use China, but other Asian countries with similar cost structures. Both Triumph Motorcycles and Dyson have manufacturing facilities in Malaysia.
By 2050 it expected that 70% of the worlds GNP will be from Asia, however the dominant country by then will probably be India, due to India by then having a much bigger population and much more importantly a much younger population. China already has an aging population problem due to their one child policy and this is going to get much worse. Fortunately India is a democracy and an open society.
The West will only have an answer to Asia and BRIC countries by dramatically lowering their cost base by considerably improving their educational systems, skills base and attitudes to learning. Sadly, on all counts the UK is going in the wrong direction on this!
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Of the religion subject nothing has ever been shown as absolute proof of existence and as for the other lot ...who gives a t*ss?
They should all get back to reality and stop the dreamworld escapades. Does anyone realise that the church is the richest institution in the world? There again I give nothing and best of all being a realist I expect nothing! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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all this "the church is the richest institution in the world" stuff, is largely 'dangle berries'....
in much the same position , frankly, as some of the "landed gentry" owners of dilapidated country house estates....
but lets start with "the church"
which church, there's lots and lots, and they all hate each other..... or they'd all be the same church....
Roman Catholic is considerably larger and financially more robust than the church of england....
but they are suffering similar issues with income streams......
(and poor investment management and so on)
i may be agnostic, but several Uncle's are clerics of various levels, including a bishop, , my grandmother sat on General synod, and bemoaning the financial state of the organization, and the seeming inability and incompetence of the management to get it in to better order.... is a favourite topic at family gatherings..... owning loads of land and property does not necessarily translate in to financial security..... it can even be quite the opposite... any idea how much it costs to repair and maintain a grade 1 listed building?????? or how un-sale-able some are... by the very nature of their protected Listed status..... who the hell wants to buy a building that can only ever be used as a church, and can't be modified in any way..... and ditto therefore cannot be effectively rented.....
an absolute gobsmacking fortune..... contractors hear the words "listed building" and immediately the price goes up exponentially .... (not always without some cause, insurance cost for any major operations is astronomical, but usually it goes up more than is really defensible... )
even for non destructive modernisation of facilities like Lighting and PA, networking and such like, churches get stung badly....
i for one am very glad NOT to be in the employ of an organisation that's facing bankruptcy unless they pull their fingers out
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seen on Telegraph letters page....
Sir,
Wasn't St Paul a tent maker ?
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seen on Telegraph letters page....
Sir,
Wasn't St Paul a tent maker ?
PMSL.
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26795734/Smilies/rofl.gif)
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all this "the church is the richest institution in the world" stuff, is largely 'dangle berries'....
in much the same position , frankly, as some of the "landed gentry" owners of dilapidated country house estates....
but lets start with "the church"
which church, there's lots and lots, and they all hate each other..... or they'd all be the same church....
Roman Catholic is considerably larger and financially more robust than the church of england....
but they are suffering similar issues with income streams......
(and poor investment management and so on)
i may be agnostic, but several Uncle's are clerics of various levels, including a bishop, , my grandmother sat on General synod, and bemoaning the financial state of the organization, and the seeming inability and incompetence of the management to get it in to better order.... is a favourite topic at family gatherings..... owning loads of land and property does not necessarily translate in to financial security..... it can even be quite the opposite... any idea how much it costs to repair and maintain a grade 1 listed building?????? or how un-sale-able some are... by the very nature of their protected Listed status..... who the hell wants to buy a building that can only ever be used as a church, and can't be modified in any way..... and ditto therefore cannot be effectively rented.....
an absolute gobsmacking fortune..... contractors hear the words "listed building" and immediately the price goes up exponentially .... (not always without some cause, insurance cost for any major operations is astronomical, but usually it goes up more than is really defensible... )
even for non destructive modernisation of facilities like Lighting and PA, networking and such like, churches get stung badly....
i for one am very glad NOT to be in the employ of an organisation that's facing bankruptcy unless they pull their fingers out
Interesting indeed Max :y,
In terms of material wealth - property holdings, investments, accoutrements, tools of the trade and so on, can the C of E (for example) then be considered to be poor?
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The church has always made money from people, without doing so it could not exist. Pilgrimages to Canterbury we all about paying homage to god and paying the church money for gods favour. The building of many of the countries churches by rich merchants was also for similar reasons.
It is not surprising that the Church of England is struggling, where they have now lost their Sunday trading monopoly.
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I take my hat off to the Black's Outdoor Group - the business development strategist who a long time ago selected Paternoster Square EC4 for the location of a camping shop has had a coup - they must be rewarding him now ;D ::)
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Do we really think there is a socialist utopia which we are being prevented from reaching by the "capitalist pigs" ? ::)
Yep, North Korea they have to keep their borders closed to keep us westerners out. ;D ;D ;D Brain washing, starving population, execution of locals trying to cross into China, is all Western propaganda spread by capitalist pigs, just like it was in the days of the USSR ::) ::) ::)
Socialism is so good, China hasn't thought of adopting capitalism to increase the countries wealth. :o :o :o
Socialism is so good, China hasn't thought of adopting capitalism to increase the countries wealth
And that, inter alia, will be the rock upon which they perish I would suggest.
Too big, too much, too soon and too much expectation from the formally downtrodden masses.
There may well not be sufficient room in the sun for all those in that vast country who aspire to a suntan.
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Setting aside the encampment issues:
I am horrified to learn that the iconic locus of 'our' national-faith (effectively) charges admission fees to visitors/pilgrims. :o
Sadly......it would appear that, somewhere along the way, 'someone' appears to have taken the christian out of Christianity. :'(
That's the story in majority of our countries cathedrals Debs, sadly. We paid £18 to visit York Minster recently. Shocking, but the sheer cost of the upkeep of these buildings is astronomical! :o
My Dad was Estate Manager for Chester Cathedral for many years and as a result of the Dean and Chapter refusing to charge visitors watched more and more jobs being cut, his own included, as the struggle for funding became more difficult.
The present Dean has brought in admission fees now. :(
Chester Cathedral will let you in free if you wish to ''use'' the church as a place of worship but visitors must pay.
Sad state of affairs but there doesn't seem to be much religion in the religious these days. :-X
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Setting aside the encampment issues:
I am horrified to learn that the iconic locus of 'our' national-faith (effectively) charges admission fees to visitors/pilgrims. :o
Sadly......it would appear that, somewhere along the way, 'someone' appears to have taken the christian out of Christianity. :'(
That's the story in majority of our countries cathedrals Debs, sadly. We paid £18 to visit York Minster recently. Shocking, but the sheer cost of the upkeep of these buildings is astronomical! :o
My Dad was Estate Manager for Chester Cathedral for many years and as a result of the Dean and Chapter refusing to charge visitors watched more and more jobs being cut, his own included, as the struggle for funding became more difficult.
The present Dean has brought in admission fees now. :(
Chester Cathedral will let you in free if you wish to ''use'' the church as a place of worship but visitors must pay.
Sad state of affairs but there doesn't seem to be much religion in the religious these days. :-X
Isn't that discrimination - I would have to pay purely because of my (lack of) beliefs?
Surely, the worshippers' should pay as well, if funding is required, as they are the ones benefitting ;)
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Setting aside the encampment issues:
I am horrified to learn that the iconic locus of 'our' national-faith (effectively) charges admission fees to visitors/pilgrims. :o
Sadly......it would appear that, somewhere along the way, 'someone' appears to have taken the christian out of Christianity. :'(
That's the story in majority of our countries cathedrals Debs, sadly. We paid £18 to visit York Minster recently. Shocking, but the sheer cost of the upkeep of these buildings is astronomical! :o
My Dad was Estate Manager for Chester Cathedral for many years and as a result of the Dean and Chapter refusing to charge visitors watched more and more jobs being cut, his own included, as the struggle for funding became more difficult.
The present Dean has brought in admission fees now. :(
Chester Cathedral will let you in free if you wish to ''use'' the church as a place of worship but visitors must pay.
Sad state of affairs but there doesn't seem to be much religion in the religious these days. :-X
Isn't that discrimination - I would have to pay purely because of my (lack of) beliefs?
Surely, the worshippers' should pay as well, if funding is required, as they are the ones benefitting ;)
That's what the collection plate during the services are for.....in theory anyway!
Had to pay a sodding fortune to get wed there, be damned if I'm gonna keep paying to go in! ;)
I actually think a reasonable donation should be asked for and given to visit these places. Religious or not, the buildings hold precious history and architecture the likes of which we will never see again. It's everyone's duty to protect our history and culture.
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Setting aside the encampment issues:
I am horrified to learn that the iconic locus of 'our' national-faith (effectively) charges admission fees to visitors/pilgrims. :o
Sadly......it would appear that, somewhere along the way, 'someone' appears to have taken the christian out of Christianity. :'(
That's the story in majority of our countries cathedrals Debs, sadly. We paid £18 to visit York Minster recently. Shocking, but the sheer cost of the upkeep of these buildings is astronomical! :o
My Dad was Estate Manager for Chester Cathedral for many years and as a result of the Dean and Chapter refusing to charge visitors watched more and more jobs being cut, his own included, as the struggle for funding became more difficult.
The present Dean has brought in admission fees now. :(
Chester Cathedral will let you in free if you wish to ''use'' the church as a place of worship but visitors must pay.
Sad state of affairs but there doesn't seem to be much religion in the religious these days. :-X
Isn't that discrimination - I would have to pay purely because of my (lack of) beliefs?
Surely, the worshippers' should pay as well, if funding is required, as they are the ones benefitting ;)
That's what the collection plate during the services are for.....in theory anyway!
Had to pay a sodding fortune to get wed there, be damned if I'm gonna keep paying to go in! ;)
I actually think a reasonable donation should be asked for and given to visit these places. Religious or not, the buildings hold precious history and architecture the likes of which we will never see again. It's everyone's duty to protect our history and culture.
well said :y
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Setting aside the encampment issues:
I am horrified to learn that the iconic locus of 'our' national-faith (effectively) charges admission fees to visitors/pilgrims. :o
Sadly......it would appear that, somewhere along the way, 'someone' appears to have taken the christian out of Christianity. :'(
That's the story in majority of our countries cathedrals Debs, sadly. We paid £18 to visit York Minster recently. Shocking, but the sheer cost of the upkeep of these buildings is astronomical! :o
My Dad was Estate Manager for Chester Cathedral for many years and as a result of the Dean and Chapter refusing to charge visitors watched more and more jobs being cut, his own included, as the struggle for funding became more difficult.
The present Dean has brought in admission fees now. :(
Chester Cathedral will let you in free if you wish to ''use'' the church as a place of worship but visitors must pay.
Sad state of affairs but there doesn't seem to be much religion in the religious these days. :-X
Isn't that discrimination - I would have to pay purely because of my (lack of) beliefs?
Surely, the worshippers' should pay as well, if funding is required, as they are the ones benefitting ;)
That's what the collection plate during the services are for.....in theory anyway!
Had to pay a sodding fortune to get wed there, be damned if I'm gonna keep paying to go in! ;)
I actually think a reasonable donation should be asked for and given to visit these places. Religious or not, the buildings hold precious history and architecture the likes of which we will never see again. It's everyone's duty to protect our history and culture.
I agree, everyone should contribute *IF* they use it (or want to look around it). I do feel, however, the commercialism of the churches will be their downfall.
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Setting aside the encampment issues:
I am horrified to learn that the iconic locus of 'our' national-faith (effectively) charges admission fees to visitors/pilgrims. :o
Sadly......it would appear that, somewhere along the way, 'someone' appears to have taken the christian out of Christianity. :'(
That's the story in majority of our countries cathedrals Debs, sadly. We paid £18 to visit York Minster recently. Shocking, but the sheer cost of the upkeep of these buildings is astronomical! :o
My Dad was Estate Manager for Chester Cathedral for many years and as a result of the Dean and Chapter refusing to charge visitors watched more and more jobs being cut, his own included, as the struggle for funding became more difficult.
The present Dean has brought in admission fees now. :(
Chester Cathedral will let you in free if you wish to ''use'' the church as a place of worship but visitors must pay.
Sad state of affairs but there doesn't seem to be much religion in the religious these days. :-X
Isn't that discrimination - I would have to pay purely because of my (lack of) beliefs?
Surely, the worshippers' should pay as well, if funding is required, as they are the ones benefitting ;)
That's what the collection plate during the services are for.....in theory anyway!
Had to pay a sodding fortune to get wed there, be damned if I'm gonna keep paying to go in! ;)
I actually think a reasonable donation should be asked for and given to visit these places. Religious or not, the buildings hold precious history and architecture the likes of which we will never see again. It's everyone's duty to protect our history and culture.
I agree, everyone should contribute *IF* they use it (or want to look around it). I do feel, however, the commercialism of the churches will be their downfall.
Certainly will be! That said, they can't rely on their religion! >:(