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[MaxV6]

Now then,  BEFORE i start , let me clearly state i am a humanist agnostic, with atheistic leanings...

BUT.....  i work professionally  in a  number of churches and other places of worship,   on a regular basis...   including St Paul's,  (and Westminster Abbey,  St Martin in the fields,  St Bartholomew the great, St James's ,   all the regional cathedrals,  etc etc , the list goes on)   recording live events for broadcast on Classic Fm,  and the BBC,  and also, for classical music CD Album releases.... 

(This week for example,  was recording a choral event , just round the corner from St Paul's, at St Batholomew the Great ,  in Cloth fair, just off West Smithfield... )


the running costs and maintenance of such buildings is astronomical,  and in these days of reduced attendance,  reduced income from collections and  bequests , either they make what they can from the tourist, or the place falls down...



so....    no i do not think they've taken the christian out of christianity.... 


in the vast majority of places,  access for private prayer is still free,   (but wandering around taking photos, and saying oh gosh,  is NOT praying... and the people running the place are NOT complete idiots .....  (okay, they have a bad case of religion,   but other than that,  they still have enough sense to catch out the cheapskate fee dodgers... )

some places set aside times of day for people to pray,  others set aside non tourist access sections of the church.....   but nowhere i've been charges the faithful to carry out the articles of their faith.


(frankly, I would......    but then i'm not one of them.....   i'm a realist....  if you have an avenue to acquire legitimate funding for your survival, then use it i say.....   )

[Dishevelled Den]

Setting aside the encampment issues:

I am horrified to learn that the iconic locus of 'our' national-faith (effectively) charges admission fees to visitors/pilgrims.

Sadly......it would appear that, somewhere along the way, 'someone' appears to have taken the christian out of Christianity.

Welcome to modern-day Britain - where the new religion is the worship of the material and the result of its practice mere avarice.

[Dishevelled Den]

Now then,  BEFORE i start , let me clearly state i am a humanist agnostic, with atheistic leanings...

BUT.....  i work professionally  in a  number of churches and other places of worship,   on a regular basis...   including St Paul's,  (and Westminster Abbey,  St Martin in the fields,  St Bartholomew the great, St James's ,   all the regional cathedrals,  etc etc , the list goes on)   recording live events for broadcast on Classic Fm,  and the BBC,  and also, for classical music CD Album releases.... 

(This week for example,  was recording a choral event , just round the corner from St Paul's, at St Batholomew the Great ,  in Cloth fair, just off West Smithfield... )


the running costs and maintenance of such buildings is astronomical,  and in these days of reduced attendance,  reduced income from collections and  bequests , either they make what they can from the tourist, or the place falls down...



so....    no i do not think they've taken the christian out of christianity.... 


in the vast majority of places,  access for private prayer is still free,   (but wandering around taking photos, and saying oh gosh,  is NOT praying... and the people running the place are NOT complete idiots .....  (okay, they have a bad case of religion,   but other than that,  they still have enough sense to catch out the cheapskate fee dodgers... )

some places set aside times of day for people to pray,  others set aside non tourist access sections of the church.....   but nowhere i've been charges the faithful to carry out the articles of their faith.


(frankly, I would......    but then i'm not one of them.....   i'm a realist....  if you have an avenue to acquire legitimate funding for your survival, then use it i say.....   )

Considering the vast wealth organised religion holds Max - across all the main denominations - I would have thought 'they' could afford to give the punters a better deal all the same.

[albitz]

The Anglican Church is an extremely wealthy organisation.It owns huge amounts of property,including many in west London - mayfair Knightsbridge etc. It also owns large forests and greenfield sites etc.It may well be the largest landowner in the country.
It also holds an enormous investment portfilio of bluechip shares, such as BP etc.
Perhaps the protesters should turn their angst on the church, as it seems to be more succesful at capitalism than the banks round the corner that they (and the hypocrites in the church) are complaining about.

[tidla]

might be taboo, but when it does crop it does crop up it makes interesting reading.

[Rods2]

Do we really think there is a socialist utopia which we are being prevented from reaching by the "capitalist pigs" ?

Yep, North Korea they have to keep their borders closed to keep us westerners out.    Brain washing, starving population, execution of locals trying to cross into China, is all Western propaganda spread by capitalist pigs, just like it was in the days of the USSR   

Socialism is so good, China hasn't thought of adopting capitalism to increase the countries wealth. 

[albitz]

 

[MaxV6]

the Chinese game plan is as plain as the nose on my face.....

provide incredibly cheap manufacturing and labour,  till they have total economic dominance of the planet, then increase the cost till it virtually bankrupts the rest of the world.... then take over,  by economic necessity....


i know it, you know it, the governments know it, but are so beholden to the great god consumerism,  that they are unable to do anything about it.

in 100 years time, we will ALL be chinese ruled.

it's simple economics.

sadly the vast overwhelming majority of consumers are too stupid and too greedy to spend their money elsewhere,  and manufacturers in the west are faced with the choice of go to china to build, or go bust through being unable to compete.

[Rods2]

I agree on the short term view of using Chinese labour, western countries are allowing a closed society and dictatorship to gain much of their technology. Not all countries use China, but other Asian countries with similar cost structures. Both Triumph Motorcycles and Dyson have manufacturing facilities in Malaysia.

By 2050 it expected that 70% of the worlds GNP will be from Asia, however the dominant country by then will probably be India, due to India by then having a much bigger population and much more importantly a much younger population. China already has an aging population problem due to their one child policy and this is going to get much worse. Fortunately India is a democracy and an open society.

The West will only have an answer to Asia and BRIC countries by dramatically lowering their cost base by considerably improving their educational systems, skills base and attitudes to learning. Sadly, on all counts the UK is going in the wrong direction on this!

[Bionic]

Of the religion subject nothing has ever been shown as absolute proof of existence and as for the other lot ...who gives a t*ss?
They should all get back to reality and stop the dreamworld escapades. Does anyone realise that the church is the richest institution in the world? There again I give nothing and best of all being a realist I expect nothing!

[MaxV6]

all this "the church is the richest institution in the world" stuff, is largely 'dangle berries'....

in much the same position , frankly,  as some of the "landed gentry" owners of dilapidated country house estates....   

but lets start with "the church"

which church,  there's lots and lots, and they all hate each other.....     or they'd all be the same church....


 Roman Catholic is considerably larger and financially more robust than the church of england.... 

but they are suffering similar  issues with income streams......   

(and poor investment  management and so on)



i may be agnostic,  but several Uncle's are clerics of various levels,  including a bishop, , my grandmother sat on General synod,  and bemoaning the financial state of the organization, and the seeming inability and incompetence of the management to get it in to better order....   is a favourite topic at family gatherings.....        owning loads of land and property does not necessarily translate in to financial security.....    it can even be quite the opposite...          any idea how much it costs to repair and maintain a grade 1 listed building???  or how un-sale-able some are... by the very nature of their protected  Listed status.....      who the hell wants to buy a building that can only ever be used as a church, and can't be modified in any way.....  and ditto therefore cannot be effectively rented.....

an absolute gobsmacking fortune.....      contractors hear the words "listed building" and immediately the price goes up exponentially ....    (not always without some cause,  insurance cost for any major operations is astronomical, but usually it goes up more than is really defensible...   )

even for non destructive modernisation of facilities like Lighting and PA, networking and such like, churches get stung badly....   


i for one am very glad NOT to be in the employ of an organisation that's facing bankruptcy unless they pull their fingers out

[2woody]

seen on Telegraph letters page....

Sir,

Wasn't St Paul a tent maker ?

[Kevin Wood]

seen on Telegraph letters page....

Sir,

Wasn't St Paul a tent maker ?

PMSL.

[Dishevelled Den]

all this "the church is the richest institution in the world" stuff, is largely 'dangle berries'....

in much the same position , frankly,  as some of the "landed gentry" owners of dilapidated country house estates....   

but lets start with "the church"

which church,  there's lots and lots, and they all hate each other.....     or they'd all be the same church....


 Roman Catholic is considerably larger and financially more robust than the church of england.... 

but they are suffering similar  issues with income streams......   

(and poor investment  management and so on)



i may be agnostic,  but several Uncle's are clerics of various levels,  including a bishop, , my grandmother sat on General synod,  and bemoaning the financial state of the organization, and the seeming inability and incompetence of the management to get it in to better order....   is a favourite topic at family gatherings.....        owning loads of land and property does not necessarily translate in to financial security.....    it can even be quite the opposite...          any idea how much it costs to repair and maintain a grade 1 listed building???  or how un-sale-able some are... by the very nature of their protected  Listed status.....      who the hell wants to buy a building that can only ever be used as a church, and can't be modified in any way.....  and ditto therefore cannot be effectively rented.....

an absolute gobsmacking fortune.....      contractors hear the words "listed building" and immediately the price goes up exponentially ....    (not always without some cause,  insurance cost for any major operations is astronomical, but usually it goes up more than is really defensible...   )

even for non destructive modernisation of facilities like Lighting and PA, networking and such like, churches get stung badly....   


i for one am very glad NOT to be in the employ of an organisation that's facing bankruptcy unless they pull their fingers out

Interesting indeed Max ,

In terms of material wealth - property holdings, investments, accoutrements, tools of the trade and so on, can the C of E (for example) then be considered to be poor?

[Rods2]

The church has always made money from people, without doing so it could not exist. Pilgrimages to Canterbury we all about paying homage to god and paying the church money for gods favour. The building of many of the countries churches by rich merchants was also for similar reasons.

It is not surprising that the Church of England is struggling, where they have now lost their Sunday trading monopoly.