Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Varche on 20 November 2011, 11:05:10
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Am I the only person who thinks it is very strange that scrapyards and recyclers haven't been made by law to keep records of payments and to pay by cheque/bank transfer.
I saw a piece on TV about a bunch of Police officers making a snap visit to a yard looking for suspicious church lead roofing, copper railway signalling cable, manhole covers and so on. Tough job with so many yards to visit.
How hard would it be to introduce some legislation?
I remember back in the seventies taking 3 car batteries and 3 radiators to a scrap yard at Enderby and being given a grilling before being handed the cash.
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here, most
all scrapyard owners are unbelievably rich (not joking, 3-4 of them can buy half of the city)
because they are all mafia and in cooperation with cops >:(
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Am I the only person who thinks it is very strange that scrapyards and recyclers haven't been made by law to keep records of payments and to pay by cheque/bank transfer.
Nope, 37,068 people agree with you: http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/406
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I'm suprised the vat man has not forced something threw yet.
I know for a fact that when the price of scrap goes up, HMRC tend to send one of there investigation people down to our local scrappy and take the reg numbers of any firms vans that turn up there >:(
If it happens too often, they have been known to knock on your door to inspect your books ::) >:( >:(
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Am I the only person who thinks it is very strange that scrapyards and recyclers haven't been made by law to keep records of payments and to pay by cheque/bank transfer.
Even if the VAT man did have the power to introduce new legislation, you can't force someone to use a particular method of payment.
How hard would it be to introduce some legislation?
Our government shows us on an almost daily basis how easy it is to introduce new legislation no matter how barmy it is, but enforcing it is another thing altogether.
Unless you have witnessed it, proving that a cash transaction has taken place would be very difficult indeed.
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Am I the only person who thinks it is very strange that scrapyards and recyclers haven't been made by law to keep records of payments and to pay by cheque/bank transfer.
I saw a piece on TV about a bunch of Police officers making a snap visit to a yard looking for suspicious church lead roofing, copper railway signalling cable, manhole covers and so on. Tough job with so many yards to visit.
How hard would it be to introduce some legislation?
I remember back in the seventies taking 3 car batteries and 3 radiators to a scrap yard at Enderby and being given a grilling before being handed the cash.
Unless I am mistaken, laws are coming into force in the next month or two, outlawing cash transactions and forcing customers to show ID, which must be recorded by the dealer. This was mentioned on a programme about the recent spate of thefts of cabling from railways. :y
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The only references I can find are:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8883823/MPs-to-consider-move-against-cable-thieves.html
and
http://www.mrw.co.uk/news/mp-seeks-regulation-to-curb-metal-theft-crisis/8622577.article
But nothing since to say whether it passed the first stage or not..
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Unless I am mistaken, laws are coming into force in the next month or two, outlawing cash transactions and forcing customers to show ID, which must be recorded by the dealer. This was mentioned on a programme about the recent spate of thefts of cabling from railways. :y
Outlawing cash isn't feasible, and keeping a copy of your ID isn't going to prove how much the transaction was for or the method of payment used.
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This is one area where a dreaded ID card would actually be useful.
In Spain for example you can't do anything without producing your ID card. The unique number is then recorded against your transaction. Yes and why can't the transaction be recorded. Every other business has to. Plenty of ways to skin a cat. Cash transactions at a scrapyard could be illegal for example. Bona fida persons wouldn't object to payment by cheque or by bank transfer. The technology is there. It might even help the tax man tax people who are making a living from scrap sales......
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why can't the transaction be recorded.
It can be recorded, but you still can't prove whether cash changed hands.
Example:
You come to me with scrap worth £100.
I pay you £50 and record the transaction for that amount, and I then give you the other £50 in cash.
You won't be complaining because that is £50 the VAT/Tax man knows nothing about where you are concerned, and I doubt very much the buyer will be complaining because it works the same way for him/her as well.
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You want to extract tax from scrap metal merchants ? :o.................have you no sense of culture/tradition/history ? Shame on you. >:(
::) ;D ;D ;D
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why can't the transaction be recorded.
It can be recorded, but you still can't prove whether cash changed hands.
The bill includes a provision that all transactions take place on CCTV..
So when (presumably, not if) they raid check the scrap yard, if there is something in there that didn't appear on the CCTV, yer nicked, son.
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Well I suppose I am one of those people who takes scrap to the scrap yard 2 or 3 times a year. I work for a large organisation which seems to value scrap paper and cardboard above scrap metal. I hoard the scrap metal and then weigh it in.
If the new rules come in and I am prevented from doing this then my emplyer will pay a licenced scrap yard to take the metal away and I will loose a few quid each year. I am about to take alod this week, I will use some of the money to pay for our units Xmas bash and yes pocket the rest. A bit black market if you like but ultimatly the money all goes back into the system so is not lost.
Just get the scrapyards to stop taking man hole covers. road signs and the like and leave the rest of us to help recycle and make a couple of quid extra.
I have received about £400 this year so far and expect to make about £200 this week.
So total £600 in a year I have made outside of the system. For this I have to take a days holiday to get it there and use my own trailer and petrol.
I am hardly an offshore company avoiding millions in tax eh.
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Quite agree. It is the folk who make a living at it without declaring any of the stuff taken in.
After all there are plenty of areas where people are as near as damn it trading - EBay and so on but there is a trail there if the authorities wanted to fololow it up..
The real purpose would be to stop in its tracks the current theft of a say a hundred yards of copper cable worth say 50 quid, getting paid 30 for it at a bent/disinterested scrap yard and then having no trains till the cable is replaced at a cost of say 500 pounds. It would be cheaper all round just to pay the thieves and the scrap yard a retainer NOT to steal of say 100 pounds a week and call it dole. ;D ;D
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Cook the tax man, we are already taxed to death and beyond, VAT @20% National In 12% Income tax 22% Gas and Elec 5% + fuel, tobacco, alcohol I could go on but I'm sure you all know the script. He is the biggest bandit of them all and this not to mention the greedy MP's who not satisfied with there salary and TAX FREE perks twist the system into even more personal wealth whilst dodging coughing up on any personal gains.
Weighing a bit of scrap in a couple or so times a year for a bit of back pocket money or a bit towards the kiddies christmas is nothing to what the above twisting ******** get up.
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Our government shows us on an almost daily basis how easy it is to introduce new legislation no matter how barmy it is, but enforcing it is another thing altogether.
Unless you have witnessed it, proving that a cash transaction has taken place would be very difficult indeed.
You've knocked that one right through the thin atmosphere Martian. 8) :y
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The bill includes a provision that all transactions take place on CCTV.
I'll see you in the pub at lunchtime and square you up the other £50 mate ;)
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All scrap merchants should be registered and all cash transactions illegal, payment only made to/from designated and registered accounts. Electornic monitoring of transactions by the scrap yard compare with what they declare on recycling to next stage. Full records kept and liable to "no-notice" checking.
Sounds draconian, but I don't care .. if a little inconvenience is put to those who scrap the odd car/pile of metal it matters not to me .. what IS important is some way of stopping this sort of activity.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3897382/Sick-thieves-steal-war-memorial-statue.html
This was stolen because the thieves had a known way of getting rid of it. Stop the trade and you stop the thefts.
Legislation won't totaly stop the trade, but it will make it far harder and would proscribe sentences for breaches.... now if those sentences wrere tough enough .....
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Why not, we are already monitored like no other country, lets agree to cctv in our house then they can have it, All hale Big Brother
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The other side of the argument is that this would tie yet another industry up in a huge web of red tape. There is a huge problem in this country with scrap metal being stolen from locations where it endangers lives and causes huge inconvenience,but arent we all ignoring the elephant in the room - the thieves. We all know "who" they are,but to speak of that issue would brand us as right wing knee jerk reactionary racists,in this PC world we now have to exist in. ;)
A clue - the problem has only become a big one in the last 10-15 years. ::)
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Messed up modifying. :-[ ::)
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No doubt, when such legislation is enacted, it will be policed by means other than a real police officer wandering in to a look around while basing his/her observations on a sound local knowledge of the proprietor and frequenters of any such establishment.
When I was a probationer constable all those years ago a lack of local knowledge was not allowed and, to prevent it, we were tested frequently.
Should there have been a scrap merchant on the patch we knew who he was, what he was dealing in and had a fair idea who he was buying from.
Nowadays I suppose this would be deemed to be too labour intensive and, of course, would only result in the horrific requirement for officers to dismount from their vehicles or actually walk around talking to people and taking note of what’s going on.
Still, I suppose some quasi private organisation will be looking forward to getting a contract to police this (in place of real police officers).
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Scrap dealing - Its the second oldest profession. ;D
If there were no resetters then their would be no thieves.........
And like DD, we needed to know the scrappy 'resetters' when I was a proby and regularly entered the yards for a good rake around, particularly when there was a spate of cojoined thefts such as drain covers, ally beer barrels, copper earth strapping from leccy sub stations (brave but stupid...) and similar.
If such neferious proceeds was unearthed then relevant register entry was required to be produced. If not, prosecution ensued. Its not really more legislation thats required, just a frekking good dose of coppers nouse - and the freedom/knowledge to use it, with a supportive following court system.
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The other side of the argument is that this would tie yet another industry up in a huge web of red tape. There is a huge problem in this country with scrap metal being stolen from locations where it endangers lives and causes huge inconvenience,but arent we all ignoring the elephant in the room - the thieves. We all know "who" they are,but to speak of that issue would brand us as right wing knee jerk reactionary racists,in this PC world we now have to exist in. ;)
A clue - the problem has only become a big one in the last 10-15 years. ::)
Bang on the money Albs :y :y :y
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All scrap merchants should be registered and all cash transactions illegal, payment only made to/from designated and registered accounts. Electornic monitoring of transactions by the scrap yard compare with what they declare on recycling to next stage. Full records kept and liable to "no-notice" checking.
Sounds draconian, but I don't care .. if a little inconvenience is put to those who scrap the odd car/pile of metal it matters not to me .. what IS important is some way of stopping this sort of activity.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3897382/Sick-thieves-steal-war-memorial-statue.html
This was stolen because the thieves had a known way of getting rid of it. Stop the trade and you stop the thefts.
Legislation won't totaly stop the trade, but it will make it far harder and would proscribe sentences for breaches.... now if those sentences wrere tough enough .....
Do you have any idea what this would mean for the average joe (me)
Secondly, large business and rich individuals manage to avoid payng huge amounts of tax and that is through as much checking by the authorities as there can be but they still get away with it.
I wholeheartedly agree that anyone stealing a memorial for scrap should be hung drawn and quartered.
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The new rules will make it more difficult, and reduce the size of the problem but unfortunately wont stop it. Like chip and pin has reduced debit / credit card fraud but has not eliminated it. The fraud methods have just changed, like false fronts on ATMs. >:( >:( >:(
All it will mean is that the metal will be taken abroad, along with the car spares that there is already a big market for in Eastern Europe or there will be a fence who will melt down the material and then take it for scrap or send it abroad.
Unfortunately, scum that are quite happy to cause major disruption to make a few £'s are not going to stop trying to make an easy living at our expense. >:( >:( >:(
An appropriate punishment for scum that deface our war memorials should be to serve queen and country as IED detectors in Afghanistan. :y
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For me, something needs doing.
I could not give a flying about the tax, its a case of discouraging the low lifes who have no concern over steeling metal (I wont use the word scrap as it often isnt) because they know they can simply weigh it in, get a few quid and repeat as required.
The proposals I have seen are based around a no cash transaction where the cash is paid to a uk registered bank account in order to create a trail, this is no bad thing and having spoken to Steve at Thompsons on Stockton (one of the bigger scrap yards about!) about it a few times, hes more than happy as it means he goes fully electronic banking.
If as a result the revenue also get the tax they are due then all the better.
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I do a weigh in every couple of months and get cash
Rules around here are that;
car reg, name & address recorded on receipt.
No on-foot sellers or taxi arrivals will be dealt with
All lead is scanned with UV for smart water (now free to churches)
Everything put in a big pile or container
They do not record what I have actually weighed in so difficult to know if i got legit or not.
If found out later to be stolen who brought it in ??????.
This is the problem even with an ID check or cheque payment
"I didnt take that in there officer, I took in something else" !!!! ::)
There will always be a way for the pikeys to get around any system. >:( >:( >:(
Only the honest will be inconvenienced as usual ::)