Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega Electrical and Audio Help => Topic started by: Dave DND on 21 December 2011, 10:18:29
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Been racking my brains trying to recall who did a two Ohm speaker that could be used for a BOSE replacement.
We used to do a coaxial set of speakers by JBL called GTO628 that were a 2 way 6 1/2" speaker and were rated at 2 Ohms.
Infinity Reference Series also did a 2 Ohm component set 6030CS (6.5") and 5030CS (5 1/4")
I am not able to obtain these myself, nor have any other pointers at the moment as to who may or may not stock them nowadays, but maybe someone out there who is bored over christmas can do a bit of googling and come up with something that they can add here.
;)
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Hi Dave,
Halfords seem to stock the JBL ones & seem quite reasonably priced.
Are all 4 door speakers the same size in an Omega or are the fronts & rears different?
Thanks
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F/L are 6inch (15cm) and 5inch (13cm) front and back respectively, would imagine same across the range possibly :-\
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I don't see any reason to change currently. Except if the "empty" sound at low volume levels can be improved....?
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Halfords seem to stock the JBL ones & seem quite reasonably priced
be wary of anything stocked in Halfords - just make sure that they are 2 Ohms, as they do have a 4 Ohm counterpart that is not suitable.
I don't see any reason to change currently. Except if the "empty" sound at low volume levels can be improved....?
Most of the paper cone BOSE ones I`m being asked about have got to the stage of "Bio-degrading" and trying to find suitable secondhand ones that are not in a similar condition is proving difficult.
At least its a partial solution for those intent on keeping the BOSE system going
;)
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As allways Dave, if there is a fully functional system that will replace it, then i'm all ears. Until then lets not try to sell incomplete chaved up systems as a viable fully functional option. The oe system IS the best system for the omega. Accept it, move on. ;)
Although any improvements to it will be greatly appreciated obviously. Interesting the ice industry cant sell us a set of speakers to improve the thing. Must be a good system to start with!
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As allways Dave, if there is a fully functional system that will replace it, then i'm all ears. Until then lets not try to sell incomplete chaved up systems as a viable fully functional option. The oe system IS the best system for the omega. Accept it, move on. ;)
Although any improvements to it will be greatly appreciated obviously. Interesting the ice industry cant sell us a set of speakers to improve the thing. Must be a good system to start with!
gayboy, think you're missing the point. Many Bose fans have tired speakers. Replacement 2nd hand speakers are tired normally. Dave DND is trying to find a way for those of us (erroneously in his eyes ;D) who wish to retain the OE Bose to get suitable, bose compatible speakers to replace those that are shagged.
The Bose amp needs 2ohm speakers, making it hard to find many that will work for us ;)
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Yep exactly that.
If I had my way, everything BOSE would be ripped out in favour of an upgrade.
And whilst the speakers I have mentioned would probably unbalance the BOSE system design, it does offer a solution to those who really do only want to replace a knackered set of paper cone speakers and retain the NCDxxxx head units. I don`t see this as an upgrade in any shape or form, I see it purely as replacement parts.
And yes, BOSE was a good design way back when Noah first commissioned it, and the reason that the ICE industry in the 21st is not trying to upgrade it, is that the system is now so flawed by modern standards that virtually anything would be seen as an upgrade, but you have to rip out all of the obsolete parts first.
No matter how hard you polish a turd - its still a turd !!
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No matter how hard you polish a turd - its still a turd !!
please tell Simon Cowell that !!!!!!
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Dave is on a worthy mission in the quest to keep us happier for longer in our migs..
(even though he can;t stand em..... bless him, i say he's due a medal )
we have been talking about some theoretical "bit of a kludge" solutions , "back stage" as it were.... and they're staying theoretical and out of sight for the time being.... so as not to confuse the masses, or indeed, make someone's life more complicated....
but they may yet bear some fruit, it is however, almost at the point of needing a Bose equipped car volunteered to be a guinea pig, with no guarantee of success, .
or some Bose bits , and i'll volunteer my own vehicle as a test bed for all our crazy ideas. ....
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No guys, your missing the point. Constant inferance that that oe system is "a turd", reguardless of the thread title means the unwary will wonder off looking for ways to improve it, only to find this and that doesnt work. Costing members money and agro.
The only reason the ice industry dont like the system is they cant sell us anything to add to it or replace it with. Frustrating for both partys true enough. But to insite anyone to go the only way is essex, turn the yoof into chavs and fill the dash with gay leds because of it, well, they deserve shooting, if i had MY way!
I mean have been to an in car entertainment supplier lately? Chav city! No i'll take the ie system thanks. Keep my cash in my pocket, not thiers.
20 years on the oe system. Lets see the latest chav crap last as long.
Although obviously i take your perfectly reasonable point re paper speakers. If only the rest of Daves views where as reasonable.
I would suggest save the turd polishing, and find a solution! I mean who's the expert here? The perfectionist? This trim piece doesnt quite fit etc. Yet we're expected to accept loss of functions with chav crap instead. Yeah, wo'ever! Seriously...!
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Andcre latedt posts on testing. As always, most interested, as always, if that helps take things forward. :)
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Is there no way of fooling the system with a parallel resistance across the speaker?
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Is there no way of fooling the system with a parallel resistance across the speaker?
I'm guessing it relies on the low impedance drivers to get a reasonable power output out of a low supply voltage, so whilst this would indeed keep the amp happy, it probably wouldn't go loud enough.
I think my route would be aftermarket speakers and an amp that takes speaker level inputs. No visible difference from standard and a much greater choice of components.
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No guys, your missing the point. Constant inferance that that oe system is "a turd", reguardless of the thread title means the unwary will wonder off looking for ways to improve it, only to find this and that doesnt work. Costing members money and agro.
This thread started as a search for speakers to replaced broken/faulty/worn Bose ones, without having to rip it out. Allowing us to keep our beloved OE Bose stuff ;)
Take a chill-pill ;)
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I would suggest save the turd polishing, and find a solution! I mean who's the expert here?
Fair comment -
Option 1 that I am working on: I have modified a Porsche / Bose adaptor that should allow ANY aftermarket head unit to run in place of the OEM one, but will full integrate with teh BOSE amp / speaker setup - needs a bit ow tweaking.
But you may be more interested in Option 2, for those of you who like OEM stuff, as not only do I have a CD70 up and running, but it is also starting to show some of the data on the screen from the check control - Admitedly its a bit "heath robinson" at the moment with a couple of extra circuit boards hung off the rear, but I have about 70% of the fuel computer functions and bulb warnings operating through it at the moment !!
But, you are missing the point - This thread is not about replacing or upgrading BOSE, its about a replacement speaker solution for those of you refusing to move on.
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The only reason the ice industry dont like the system is they cant sell us anything to add to it or replace it with.
No, its because the car is old and dead - there is no money left in it
When most of the cars are worth significantly less than a grand, what is the point in spending tens of thousands in research and development when most of you are not going to spend more than the car is worth on the finished product.
I think my route would be aftermarket speakers and an amp that takes speaker level inputs. No visible difference from standard and a much greater choice of components.
And I have been banging on about that for ages - keep the visual appearance and retain full functionality, but upgrade all teh bits that cannot be seen by the visable eye - You all do it to the engines, tweaking and tuning and adding bits, yet refuse to apply the same logic to the audio
I just don`t understand why not?
And no, it does not have to be chavved up with gay blue LEDS, nor anything you will find in 99% of car audio shops, I agree with you there, most of it nowadays is utter tat - but thats not what I am trying to offer you all is it?
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No matter how hard you polish a turd - its still a turd !!
please tell Simon Cowell that !!!!!!
Amen to that one !!! ;)
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Is there no way of fooling the system with a parallel resistance across the speaker?
Did have a play with this, but the volume levels were all out of balance with the cabin and the sub became really "boomy" by comparison - Also tried two pairs of lower wattage 4 Ohm speakers in parallel to try to get the volume right that way, but the sound was truly awfull.
No, the BOSE system was designed to run just about as well as it could at the time, and very difficult to upgrade a single component of it without really upsetting the balance - hence the emphasis on the need to replace and not retain bits
Its also going to be very intersting to see what some of the Ideas from MaxV6 throw up, as he is certainly coming at this problem from a very different direction, but cannot fault some of his theories and ideas !!!
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Interesting the ice industry cant sell us a set of speakers to improve the thing.
Actually they do, and always have - but you also need a new amp to run them.
(http://www.dndservices.co.uk/smiley/brick wall.gif)
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Interesting the ice industry cant sell us a set of speakers to improve the thing.
Actually they do, and always have - but you also need a new amp to run them.
(http://www.dndservices.co.uk/smiley/brick wall.gif)
I fully expect you to be told to take a chill pill Dave. But I won't hold me breath.
;D
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since someone mentioned it, i'll take a moment to deal with it..... in public..
the resistor across speaker to fool the amp thing.
the problem with this is three fold really..
1) a Speaker is not a straight resistor, it's a reactive load, the impedance it presents to the amp varies with frequency (and power )
so while it may nominally be say 2 Ohms at 1KHz, it maybe 4 Ohms at 15Khz, and 2.5 Ohms at 65 Hz , or some other such nonsense... (figures here are entirely made up to illustrate a point, not pulled from actual data on the system)
the trouble here is that with only a nominal 2 Ohms as the starting point, , ANY measurable variance is quite large with respect to the nominal average...
2) A resistor, is NOT a reactive load, it's broadly flat line , (*at audio frequencies anyhow) and does not present any back thrust to the amplifier.... whereas the moving coil of the driver does.... as it moves around in the magnetic field due to the drive signal, it in turn generates current by the same process...
thus , slapping a straight resistor across a higher impedance speaker in parallel, to "fool" the amp, changes how the speaker reacts to input.... and the impedance presented, and frequency response sensitivity changes....
so, the only way to do it, is to build a dummy reactive load, with the appropriate impedance characteristics to compensate correctly across the required audio bandwidth, , and present the the amplifier with the drive load it is expecting.... at all frequencies..
of course doing so, wastes a significant portion of the power the amplifier is putting in to the system, and you end up with a lower maximum volume....
the complication here , is that since the Bose system, as i understand it, is response compensated for volume... this may result in a very odd spectral balance
there are still ways to cheat a bit further, but it potentially gets increasingly complex , and still may not be a perfect result...
3) 2 Ohm drivers use a thicker voice coil winding wire , and have a different motor mass , making the transient response different from an otherwise identical driver (say a 4 Ohm or 8 Ohm coil, using the same cone and spider assembly.. ) and their efficiency is also different... (dB/W) , this is not really something that can be compensated for in a parallel reactive load....
with all that in mind, it is potentially cheaper and quicker to find a source of new replacement 2 Ohm drivers for those users who want to keep their Bose rigs, but have failing , biodegrading drivers...
that said, i still fancy having a play with the idea.... seeing if i can get the relevant performance parameter specs for the original drivers, and a range of alternatives, and if it's possible to calculate a compensatory reactive load that would use commonly available cheapish components.... the moment you start needing custom wound components, it becomes financially silly..... but IF that's all possible, seeing how well it performs....
the suspicion Dave and i share, is that it's not feasible in a practical reality, and certainly not for the average DIY miggy owner.
my interest is largely theoretical, rather than any urgent need.... my car is non bose, so i can change drivers any time i like.....
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as to how much current a speaker generates by moving, did you know a common trick in recording is to tape a Yamaha NS10 bass driver to the front of a kick drum, and then hook it up to a mic pre-amp and use it as microphone....
it's small in comparison to the amplifier output, but it IS there....
indeed yamaha even started manufacturing a kick drum mic based on that ..... it's called the sub-kick.
(i'll get me anorak and go sit quietly in the corner for a bit ..... )
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i was looking on fleabay re speakers and there a company in america selling the 2ohm ones, but for some unknown reason he has in his listing will post worldwide but not to the eu countries wtf is that about
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Guessing it's not straightforward to replace the cone? No? Thought not. :-\
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well, actually , now you mention it, i guess wembley speaker services might be able to find a cone kit for them..... unlikely , but possible....
in other drivers, (bearing in mind i am so NOT a car audio specialist.... so have only "normal-ish, if somewhat picky" experience with the specific environment, ) often it's the edge materials that are the problem, foams and rubbers that decay and rot.... and are A) near impossible to completely remove, making a good seam join around the edge and former.... and B) going to fail again anyway....
paper cones in the dry, are MUCH longer lived than the rubber and foam surrounds... .... I've got paper coned guitar speakers from the 1960's that still work just fine.... but have been refitted with new edgings.... it depends on the glue and the edge material really in those cases.... coz there are other similar aged drivers that are likely to disintegrate if used in anger....
PA & Instrument amplifier drivers and high end Studio monitor speakers are my field.... not car speakers..
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i was looking on fleabay re speakers and there a company in america selling the 2ohm ones, but for some unknown reason he has in his listing will post worldwide but not to the eu countries wtf is that about
probably something daft like lead solder used on coil feed wire....
;)
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Re foam kits seem available on eBay, so guess it's doable. Depends where they fail i supose?
A new market reparing Bose speakers for Dave perhaps? :)
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Re foam kits seem available on eBay, so guess it's doable. Depends where they fail i supose?
A new market reparing Bose speakers for Dave perhaps? :)
The foam does seem to dissapear in large chunks rather than simply deteriorate, and yes, this is certainly a weakness of the speaker. The other problem is that due to the high moisture content of the environment that the speakers are in, ie: the door, they are constantly subject to dripping water from the window seals, condensation from low overnight temperatures and fairly fast changes of temperatures when the haeter is put on. The result is that the compressed paper cone has largely lost its structure over the years. Visable deterioation is very easy to identify with a quick inspection.
A good experiment for you over the winter - put a piece of cardboard outside overnight, let it get damp and cold, but not wet, then dry it out with a hairdryer and leave it to bake in the sun during the day - repeat this process for a week or so, and at the end of it, have a look at the state of the cardboard - the surface will be knackered (so will the inside, but you can`t see that bit) - well, thats broadly whats happening to the speakers.
It is also important to bear in mind how car audio has evolved over the years, and I`m not talking about the technology, more the requirements. In the early days, the manufacturers felt it a very good idea to install speakers in all four corners as it distracted from the noise and rattles of the car, and industry statistics also proved that more vehicle faults were reported when the stereo had failed, which they obviously did in the early days. We`ve all been there, you are either singing along or thinking "I`m sure that thud wasn`t there before" when the volume is turned down. As "radio noise" was far more important than "radio sound" at the time, remember it was still very much a novelty, the speaker components were built on an absolute shoestring and had little or no quality whatsoever - the budget for a Cavalier speaker was around 10 cents, and that wouldn`t buy you any quality at all. And this also explains why the makers like BOSE achieved such phenominal success with the systems they designed - rather than noise makers, they designed something that sounded very good - and had speaker manufacturing been more advanced, then yes, plastic may well have been used instead of paper, but it wasn`t. Nowadays, the emphasis on car audio has once again shifted from how it sounds, to "how many gadgets can you cram in" and all of us who have been driving for a few years will all see this as a backwards step - me included. Car audio was better ten years ago than it is now, and that really hurts me to say that.
Many companies do actually offer a recone and repair service for many of the older subwoofers, but it is not a cheap or easy job. But typical prices for this are around £80+ per speaker, hardly worth it for such a cheap speaker, which is why a modern replacement is often considered.
Speakers are certainly out there, an amplifier solution is certainly out there, they always have been, but the underlying argument is not about BOSE, its about putting your hands in your pockets and justifying what is being offered as a very good alternative many years later.
And there lies the real problem - the subject of "Vehicle running costs".
But I will now eagerly await an answer to this question from the BOSE purists out there who refuse to accept that anything could ever sound better.
And my question is, If the BOSE system was so good all those years ago, then why has the company themselves always been at the cutting edge of audio technology and have indeed remained a strong contender in the 21st century by designing new and innovative, and often stunning sounding systems incorporating modern speaker technolgy instead of remaining with the paper cone technology and limited sound quality of a very early system design, or did they not see themselves that there was significant room for improvement 20 years later?
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chrisgixer, just so I know I am going in the right direction, I need you to answer a question for me.
Are you hoping that I can find a solution to:
A) Upgrade the sound quality of the BOSE audio system, and accept that this will mean the replacement of various BOSE components within - (excluding the head unit)
or
B) Find a workable solution for those of you who have broken elements of the BOSE system and need to replace the now discontinued faulty BOSE components within so that the BOSE system can be retained as much as possible - (excluding the head unit)
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I have a nice top end alpine headunit Id like to fit to the omega, its able to drive an amp through pre outs, but the bose wont accept the cables obviously. Im happy with the bose, as itsounds pretty good when the volumes up tbh.
Speaker upgrades sound good too, along with replacement headunit as suggested.
The porsche/bose fix sounds good for a start.
Dean
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I have a nice top end alpine headunit Id like to fit to the omega, its able to drive an amp through pre outs, but the bose wont accept the cables obviously. Im happy with the bose, as itsounds pretty good when the volumes up tbh.
Speaker upgrades sound good too, along with replacement headunit as suggested.
The porsche/bose fix sounds good for a start.
Dean
Please don`t confuse "Speaker Upgrades" with "replacements for broken ones" -
Thats not really the intended direction of this thread -
Upgrade speakers will require an upgraded amp also, and then you can fit the head unit of your choice, this is more intended towards those who wish to retain the BOSE enable head units and what can be done when the speakers fail in order to maintain functionality.
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With the option I thought you gave on the previous page, for head unit replace, hence why I mention my alpine.
As for upgrade, I meant 2 ohm direct replacement.
Sorry if I put my foot in my mouth!
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With the option I thought you gave on the previous page, for head unit replace, hence why I mention my alpine.
As for upgrade, I meant 2 ohm direct replacement.
Sorry if I put my foot in my mouth!
yep, you are right - I started it !! My bad !! :-X
The only 2 Ohm replacements I am currently aware of, are the ones mentioned at the start of this thread.
I am hoping to have an aftermarket head unit solution available very very soon - just on the final mock up of it, and then I will need a few people to try it out.
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chrisgixer, just so I know I am going in the right direction, I need you to answer a question for me.
Are you hoping that I can find a solution to:
A) Upgrade the sound quality of the BOSE audio system, and accept that this will mean the replacement of various BOSE components within - (excluding the head unit)
or
B) Find a workable solution for those of you who have broken elements of the BOSE system and need to replace the now discontinued faulty BOSE components within so that the BOSE system can be retained as much as possible - (excluding the head unit)
I would say B, but with A not far behind,
i suspect the issue for many of us, is the additional functionality of the head unit when used in conjunction with the GID/CID , not just the audio aspects..... I personally much prefer the built in Sat Nav to that on my iPhone, and my Tom Tom, i dislike cluttering up the car , and finding somewhere to put the screen and so on.... likewise, the screen functions, and warnings, and so on , that you seem to lose if you rip out the head unit....
the bose systems sound acceptable to me , not great, but acceptable, and given the acoustic arse of an environment, that's all i'm really hoping for.....
okay, so my situation is a little different now, in that my current Mv6 does NOT have Bose.... so i can upgrade along other paths.... or rather i COULD if i was prepared to rip out the damn head unit,.... which i'm not..... for aesthetic AND practical reasons.... none of which relate to the sound quality....
since my previous 2 cars both had it, and i liked it well enough, at some stage, i would like to retrofit Bose, IF, i could do so with new drivers... having seen the state of a couple of removed drivers.... i would much prefer something less knackered....
it's far from an ideal scenario, sure , money no object, i'd fit a mega expensive pro-audio grade system (not a loud-boi abomination) if it could replace all the functionality....
but money is not an infinite resource, especially if i keep spending it on other toys for work rather than for the mig,... in a better cash flow period (recession and seasonal industry shifts are biting right now) i might go as far as £500 on it.... but really.... it'd have to be pretty bloody special for that much.....
i really like the other concept you've been working on with the later unit (CD70?) as well..... if one can be got up and running and keep the TC , sat nav and check control functions and a GID/CID running
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chrisgixer, just so I know I am going in the right direction, I need you to answer a question for me.
Are you hoping that I can find a solution to:
A) Upgrade the sound quality of the BOSE audio system, and accept that this will mean the replacement of various BOSE components within - (excluding the head unit)
or
B) Find a workable solution for those of you who have broken elements of the BOSE system and need to replace the now discontinued faulty BOSE components within so that the BOSE system can be retained as much as possible - (excluding the head unit)
specific to this thread and speakers...B, surely? Given your own arguments, that we both agree on. Ie weighing up the economics of car value/system value v outlay to improve or repair. Its got to be B surely.
Although, ahem, depends on cost. My only minor annoyance with bose is low volume levels(although I haven't had to source new parts yet).
So it's a question of finding how much I'd pay to fix that issue, provided the solution works with 2015. A fubar cone might be the catalyst to pay out. But I bet a breaker will come to the rescue first tbh, however short term a solution that might be. Having said that, thinking about it, I would pay to upgrade speakers with 2015 to fix low volume levels if cheap enough.
So, depends on cost I guess...?
Over all view.
As said so many times
IMO it's not a Bose or nothing approach. It's a system approach. The system as a whole is the best available (call it a turd if you like, but that won't help your sales figures) . The fact it has Bose is irrelevant apart from the practicalities of up keep and the 2 ohms nuisance.
For instance, IMO, come up with a replacement system that's better, better in every dept mind! With latest features, Weather it's Bose or not and I'll be more than happy... If it's cheap enough. No, not cheap enough... If the outlay justifies the improvement. Put it that way. In that respect Bose or not is irrelevant, because the new system would have to spund better.
I don't give a rats arse about Bose as such. It's just what the best system available happens to have.
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For instance, IMO, come up with a replacement system that's better, better in every dept mind! With latest features, Weather it's Bose or not and I'll be more than happy... If it's cheap enough. No, not cheap enough... If the outlay justifies the improvement.
OK then -
What is your requirement for an upgraded system? - I don`t mean better sound, thats a given, what features are you expecting it to have -
And what budget do you feel would be realistic, and that you would be willing to pay for such an upgrade? Don`t just say "Cheap" - give me an actual figure to work with.
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as outlined in previous conversations...
1) play CDR's without killing laser.
2a) have comprehensive connectivity, perhaps digitally, for iDevices and their ilk, and analogue for other external sources...
2b) preferrably more than one option as regards how many and what connectivity.....
3) maintain non audio functionality. (sat nav, trip computer, check control and remote operation from steering wheel)
4) maintain Aesthetic integrity with vehicle interior.....
5) integrate phone functionality, and hands free, and voice control , .... and do so for all capable phones... for example, Gayphone integration to work with Siri... but not actually REQUIRE Siri, so it still works with say a 3GS, but also with android phones, and what not (assuming their voice control works at all.... have you SEEEN that side by side demo ?? ROFLMAO )
optional extras that might be nice.,
6) a set of headphone outputs for rear seats.... that can be individually source selected, or at least, all headphones can be sourced from, say Radio 1, while the speaker system plays Classic FM. , or the CDs.
7) internal hard drive with iTunes library compatible play back system, so it integrates with an iPod, but will also be able to store CD's that are physically loaded in to the unit... ...
8) tea making attachment.
9) auto-wash.... washes and polishes the car while you drive...
10) optional DVD and MPEG/Quicktime video play back to external screens (so you can mount screens in the rear for the kids)
11) reversing camera feed to CID??? just wondering, if the feed to a CID is VGA based, then ought to be able to display a compressed rear camera feed on it??? )
oh dear, i've designed a chavtastic thing....
scuse me while i shoot myself.
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Ok, here is my suggested system for the Omega with a few "retail price" figures for you.
If I understand correctly from other threads, various display and computer functionality can be retained by use of different stalks and wiring, and since this is out of my area of expertise, I shall focus on audio. All of these suggestions will mean removal of the BOSE system in its entirety.
Speaker upgrade package approx £210
Comprising
Replace front 17cm component speakers – Clarion SRP1721S approx £100
Replace rear 13cm component speakers – Clarion SRP1321S approx £80
(Speaker ring adapter plates will be required – approx £15 per pair)
Head unit
Basic spec comprising of CDR/RW / MP3 / dedicated IPOD control / Bluetooth phone kit:
Single DIN - Clarion CZ501E approx £195
Double DIN – Clarion CX501E approx £295
(Steering control interfaces will be required for any aftermarket head unit – approx £40)
It must be noted that running any of the Clarion head units indicated here in conjunction with the speakers shown above, that neither any further amplification nor subwoofer is required to give exceptional performance and a very rich and fully rounded sound, which is why they are my speakers of choice.
However, those who still want to add an amplifier, or simply to retain the original head unit and run the above speakers, then allow an extra £175 for a four channel Clarion APX4241E for driving them.
Subwoofers (if required) can range from the subtle underseat Clarion SRV313 active subwoofer to a much larger 10” Clarion SW2512 with APX 2121E amplifier, and either option would set you back around £175 - this can be easily added at a later date as funds allow.
And for those of you who want to go all out on the head unit, Nav, DVD etc, then my personal choice would be the Clarion NX501E which will set you back around the £800 mark
And for those of you who are still undecided about how this would all sound, then please come and visit me and have a listen to one of my cars – In fact our Astra Cabriolet has an awesome sounding audio system with an entire budget not exceeding £500 and I would put that up against many of the chavved up systems of today, let alone a 20 year old BOSE one.
Food for thought ?
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and the tea making function??
???
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so if i get this right, £560 gets you 4 decent speakers, an amplifier, and a sub, all hooked up to the standard NCDC head unit (which then keeps the rest of the functionality intact.... )
and we carry on using Fm modulators for the gayphone etc...
??
, and while you're here.... is there such a thing as a decent quality version of this ??
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Car-Holder-Cradle-Mount-Charger-FM-Transmitter-iPhone-4-3GS-3G-iPod-/270878292923?pt=UK_MP3_Player_Accessories_FM_Transmitters&hash=item3f119abbbb#ht_2439wt_1165 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Car-Holder-Cradle-Mount-Charger-FM-Transmitter-iPhone-4-3GS-3G-iPod-/270878292923?pt=UK_MP3_Player_Accessories_FM_Transmitters&hash=item3f119abbbb#ht_2439wt_1165)
i'd fully expect it to cost a fair bit more..... ( i had one , it's actually rather useful, but died fairly quickly.... a quick inspection showed fried resistor on power plug board... look like they're insufficiently rated for the job.... but since it cost all of a fiver, i couldn't be arsed to break out the SMC soldering kit. )
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Head unit will lose functions, esp remote display(cid) in dash. Imo this feature is the shining light of the system in omega. No other hu can replicate that apparently, so 2015 stays.
Speakers and amp. Provided they work with 2015 etc ... Would need to hear the low levels as a fuller sound and that there is Zero distortion at max vol levels as the oe set up to consider it.... but at that price it would need to be rather good tbh.
List of annoyances with oe system
1 lack of inputs. Imagine
a,displaying tomtom on that lovely colour screen. b, displaying/hearing phone music player.
2 tmc nfg (wouldnt get thst on tomtom, but it annoys me anyway)
3 disc comapatability with laser. Although phone input will negate that.
4 dodgy click wheel
5 cheesy appearance of oe nav software
6 cant remember i'm sure theres more
7....
8...
9..
10.
11 bose empty low volume levels. Obviously if a speaker faild this goes way up the list.
We're basickly talking about the age of the system and the features designed in at the time. Sound quality is nit high On my list of problems with it. But i may be persuaded otherewise on hearing an upgrade.
Re inputs we are putting up with modulator noise just to get mp3 from our portable devices. That should give you an idea of our priorities. How many modulators have you sold oofers? I bet its way more than speakers.
Sound quality is not high on the problem list imo. Failure thats differant. As saud repeatadly inputs are whats wanted to bring the system up to date. I would concentrate on running with the oe system and adding to it where possoble.
If you want to earn money out if me for instance, integrate video and sound input into the system cid in dash. These prioritys wont change until a speaker fails. For me anyway.
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Head unit will lose functions, esp remote display(cid) in dash. Imo this feature is the shining light of the system in omega. No other hu can replicate that apparently, so 2015 stays.....
In other words, what you appear to be saying is that the CID is nice, but the rest of the system is cr@p. ;)
Surely getting a decent head unit and speakers, then mounting a TomTom in front of the hole where the CID was (or just remove it, replace with a MID so you've got the trip computer and forget it ever existed) would be the best solution?
At what point does the whole host of other features that you're missing outweigh the fact that it won't drive the CID?
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I'm slightly different to Chris... NOT currently having a Bose system , after having had 2 in a row, is definitely noticeable, so my priority level on improvement is higher,, and i may well be happy to spend that £560 on an upgrade..... next year, if things pick up and i still don't replace my MV6 with an Elite....
(and to be fair, i probably subconsciously notice more about the sound than most..... )
I still think it ought to be possible to modify the system to add inputs.... a buffered stereo input that's switched with one of the other sources.
(bearing in mind there's 2 CD sources, and a tuner.... and presumably something for the teletronics... )
i guess one way to do it would be a small fixed gain mixer , inserted between HU and amp, to allow line level input from iPods and the like.... ,
much the same way we were talking about that line level balancing thing Dave....
could be built fairly cheaply, or a cheap ass ready made product modified to do the job....
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anyone got a knackered 2013/5 i can pull apart and investigate ????
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I still think it ought to be possible to modify the system to add inputs....
Something I've been meaning to look into on the 2006 although, given that there's no reason to keep that other than to avoid putting some modern carbuncle bristling with blue LEDs into the dash, there's less motivation than with a 2015.
Fitting my line level outputs revealed that there's a chip that does input selection, tone and gain controls and spits the audio out again in a 2006:
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90541.0 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90541.0)
It may be possible to use one of the inputs into that, and the setup on a 2015 might be similar.
Even if you can't use that to select another input, you could probably watch its' I2C lines to detect when phone mute and nav messages are active and mux the audio elsewhere..
I think it'd be pretty crazy to retro fit a Bose system for sound quality. Aftermarket amp and speakers are the way to go here, and either fit some line level outputs or feed them from the speaker outs.
I bought a bust Alpine MRV-F407 on Ebay for less than 20 quid. Couple of quid's worth of MOSFETs to replace the output stage that some chav had no doubt tortured to death and it's as good as gold... surely the route for a man of your calibre, Max. ;)
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Head unit will lose functions, esp remote display(cid) in dash. Imo this feature is the shining light of the system in omega. No other hu can replicate that apparently, so 2015 stays.....
In other words, what you appear to be saying is that the CID is nice, but the rest of the system is cr@p. ;)
Surely getting a decent head unit and speakers, then mounting a TomTom in front of the hole where the CID was (or just remove it, replace with a MID so you've got the trip computer and forget it ever existed) would be the best solution?
At what point does the whole host of other features that you're missing outweigh the fact that it won't drive the CID?
That makes no sense to me Kev. Why in earth would anyone consider binning cid. And place a tomtom unit in place of it ?
Please dont complicate matters. These arey my prioritys, accept it.
I appreciate others will differ. But what modulator sales show is, sound quality is not a priority, due to modulator noise. But inputs are! ... Seems to me anyway.
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Not sure how often we are hoing to have this same conversation guys. The outcome us always the same. .... Is it not? :-/
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Head unit will lose functions, esp remote display(cid) in dash. Imo this feature is the shining light of the system in omega. No other hu can replicate that apparently, so 2015 stays.....
In other words, what you appear to be saying is that the CID is nice, but the rest of the system is cr@p. ;)
Surely getting a decent head unit and speakers, then mounting a TomTom in front of the hole where the CID was (or just remove it, replace with a MID so you've got the trip computer and forget it ever existed) would be the best solution?
At what point does the whole host of other features that you're missing outweigh the fact that it won't drive the CID?
That makes no sense to me Kev. Why in earth would anyone consider binning cid. And place a tomtom unit in place of it ?
Please dont complicate matters. These arey my prioritys, accept it.
I appreciate others will differ. But what modulator sales show is, sound quality is not a priority, due to modulator noise. But inputs are! ... Seems to me anyway.
Well, that's something we can work on. :y
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Not sure how often we are hoing to have this same conversation guys. The outcome us always the same. .... Is it not? :-/
Normally, yes. ;D
But.. we have 2 potential solutions:
Dave gets a more modern OEM head unit working in the Omega.
We figure out how to put an aux in on a 2015. Just need one to take to bits. ;)
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and thus my query if anyone has a knackered one i can investimagate :y
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anyone got a knackered 2013/5 i can pull apart and investigate ????
If going down the route of adding / modifying one of the inputs, then I would suggest to look at the troublesome changer section, as the mechanisms and lasers are now all on their last legs, but the electronics may prove interesting to play with.
Connection here would allow you to fool the unit into thinking the CD was playing (keeping external mutes alive etc) and has the best quality and most accessable signal path for sound reproduction of an external input.
I don`t have any 2013/2015s, but if you wanted to play, I probably could lay my hands on a CDC3 if you wanted one, as placing with the CCR2006 might be an easier one to get your head around first as less complicated
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I suspect it would be fairly trivial to fool the vertical board in the CDC3 into thinking the CD was playing, then fire in the audio to the vertical board, assuming it can be matched OK.
This would then work for CCR2006, CCRT2008 and NCDC. And, those cars with a seperate CDC3 (not Omegas, except my Silver Bullet).
TheNaughtyBoy.
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If I may add to the thread.
What do I want from my current system for the future?
1) I want to keep the NCDC head unit for the asthetics, Navigation and to run the CID (for Nav and board computer) and Telematics, I want to retain the mono line in for my other phone kit and trafficmaster.
2) I want to be able to connect a stereo line in that the head unit can overide for Navigation, RDS traffic, Phone input, Trafficmaster as it would the CDC3 (big hint there as to where it needs to interface!). If I have a decent quality stereo line in then that negates the need for the four disc changer....... If you don't have the changer you
a) can remove it and have some space to mount the interface
b) fit a NCDR2011 Bezel
3) I want to have a standard line out level connection so I can ditch the Bose amp and speakers and replace them with a 'standard amp' and 'standard speakers' by which I mean something better but not more than say £300 all in.
Not sure what others wish to achieve but that's what I would like to do.
I think CG's wish list can only be answered by a CD70 and some interface work... TMC etc have never and will never be an option on the NCDC range.
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Tmc although irritating is a minor one tbh... I .... I think I'm getting over it... Slowly. ;D
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This works quite well IMO.
http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/DP1_US_revB_f.pdf
There is a bit of hiss/electronic interference with the very old generation iPod that work with it. However I have recently found that connecting iPhone 4 via 3.5mill jack gives almost zero hiss. Although there was a small amount if mobile phone buzz, but that's the phone not the uphill garden thing.
It is hard wired to the aerial though, not over the air. Input is on the side of the behind dash unit, or "brain" as they call it.
There does seem to be some fragility to the electrics, as TB will testify. The original one was fried. This one is brand new :)
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This works quite well IMO.
http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/DP1_US_revB_f.pdf
There is a bit of hiss/electronic interference with the very old generation iPod that work with it. However I have recently found that connecting iPhone 4 via 3.5mill jack gives almost zero hiss. Although there was a small amount if mobile phone buzz, but that's the phone not the uphill garden thing.
It is hard wired to the aerial though, not over the air. Input is on the side of the behind dash unit, or "brain" as they call it.
There does seem to be some fragility to the electrics, as TB will testify. The original one was fried. This one is brand new :)
I have a box of bits, if working, enough to make 2 complete units. If someone is clever enough to want to repair them.
Its not a device I would use myself, as I don't own a gayPod. I'm not gay enough yet.
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This works quite well IMO.
http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/DP1_US_revB_f.pdf
There is a bit of hiss/electronic interference with the very old generation iPod that work with it. However I have recently found that connecting iPhone 4 via 3.5mill jack gives almost zero hiss. Although there was a small amount if mobile phone buzz, but that's the phone not the uphill garden thing.
It is hard wired to the aerial though, not over the air. Input is on the side of the behind dash unit, or "brain" as they call it.
There does seem to be some fragility to the electrics, as TB will testify. The original one was fried. This one is brand new :)
I have a box of bits, if working, enough to make 2 complete units. If someone is clever enough to want to repair them.
Its not a device I would use myself, as I don't own a gayPod. I'm not gay enough yet.
but you do have a gayphone, which you love dearly. With Tomtom I'm fairly sure.
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but you do have a gayphone, which you love dearly. With Tomtom I'm fairly sure.
Adds up to a Self-adhesive navigation device. :o We're talking horticulture on quite a gradient here. :D
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but you do have a gayphone, which you love dearly. With Tomtom I'm fairly sure.
Adds up to a Self-adhesive navigation device. :o We're talking horticulture on quite a gradient here. :D
mountain climer I'd say. ;D
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but you do have a gayphone, which you love dearly. With Tomtom I'm fairly sure.
Adds up to a Self-adhesive navigation device. :o We're talking horticulture on quite a gradient here. :D
mountain climer I'd say. ;D
Yep. Stopping at every ledge to plant a few bulbs, too.
So, this vertical board.. Does this form the interface between the changer and the head unit? I.E. the bit the head unit is paired with?
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but you do have a gayphone, which you love dearly. With Tomtom I'm fairly sure.
Adds up to a Self-adhesive navigation device. :o We're talking horticulture on quite a gradient here. :D
mountain climer I'd say. ;D
Yep. Stopping at every ledge to plant a few bulbs, too.
So, this vertical board.. Does this form the interface between the changer and the head unit? I.E. the bit the head unit is paired with?
Yes it does
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but you do have a gayphone, which you love dearly. With Tomtom I'm fairly sure.
Aye, because its the best phone currently for my needs. Well, maybe a later versin that was a bit quicker.
But I don't own a gayPod, as I think its probably the worse media player out there, partly because its ridiculously priced, and also its reliance on that god awful piece of junk, gayTunes.
As to portable Sat Nav systems, my views are well known, but I do have CoPilot on, and gets used occasionally (eg, when I'm with someone else in their car, or if I'm on the bike). CoPilot based on cost, as it was about £25 iirc a couple of years back. Mrs TB and I share a gayTunes account, so it ends up on both our phones ::)
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but you do have a gayphone, which you love dearly. With Tomtom I'm fairly sure.
Aye, because its the best phone currently for my needs. Well, maybe a later versin that was a bit quicker.
But I don't own a gayPod, as I think its probably the worse media player out there, partly because its ridiculously priced, and also its reliance on that god awful piece of junk, gayTunes.
As to portable Sat Nav systems, my views are well known, but I do have CoPilot on, and gets used occasionally (eg, when I'm with someone else in their car, or if I'm on the bike). CoPilot based on cost, as it was about £25 iirc a couple of years back. Mrs TB and I share a gayTunes account, so it ends up on both our phones ::)
Point was, if you have gayphone, you have iPod music player on it. So don't need iPod specific device, as you already have one in the phone. Fan boy! ;D
HK will input iPhone or anything else via the extra 3.5 input on the HK brain, although not with direct iPod control obviously.
Depend on individual needs and ease of an HU input bodge, but HK seems good enough quality via 3.5 jack. The back ground screech of the direct control input is not present. wonder if the disc drive iPod is causing the screech ?
However. If using a direct 3.5mill jack input with out iPod control, it does beg the question is HK needed at all if there is an easy input bodge to head unit capable of playing from a simple 3.5jack output. ...?
Draw back with HK is age. It's direct control function only compatible with up to something like 4th gen iPod, or whatever it is.
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I suspect it would be fairly trivial to fool the vertical board in the CDC3 into thinking the CD was playing, then fire in the audio to the vertical board, assuming it can be matched OK.
This would then work for CCR2006, CCRT2008 and NCDC. And, those cars with a separate CDC3 (not Omegas, except my Silver Bullet).
TheNaughtyBoy.
There are homebrew projects on the internet that have been fairly successful at making emulators to plug into the head unit socket intended for boot mounted CD changers (CDCs) and allow audio input. The emulator connects to the digital control line (a low data rate serial interface) and responds to the head unit commands. It isn't as straight forward as it first appears because the data stream is undocumented and the emulator needs to convince the head unit that it is awake and functioning correctly.
I have found a project for VAG CDCs that seems to work quite well and another for Philips CDCs fitted to Renaults and another for Blaupunkt/Bosch units.
If the vertical riser card is talking a protocol that has already been reverse engineered by one of the homebrew projects then building an emulator may just require the download of some code to burn onto a £2 PIC
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Mrs TB and I share a gayTunes account, so it ends up on both our phones ::)
Does that mean your phone get's sync'd with Abba Gold every time!
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If the vertical riser card is talking a protocol that has already been reverse engineered by one of the homebrew projects then building an emulator may just require the download of some code to burn onto a £2 PIC
Interesting.. PICs I can do. Got any links to such projects?
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If the vertical riser card is talking a protocol that has already been reverse engineered by one of the homebrew projects then building an emulator may just require the download of some code to burn onto a £2 PIC
Interesting.. PICs I can do. Got any links to such projects?
This project is aimed at VDO/Dayton units fitted to Renaults since 2000 http://tlcdcemu.sourceforge.net/ (http://tlcdcemu.sourceforge.net/) (I have this notion that Philips sold out to VDO so it might be the same protocol :-\). http://tlcdcemu.sourceforge.net/pic.html (http://tlcdcemu.sourceforge.net/pic.html)
There is a list of CDC protocols here http://www.mictronics.de/projects/cdc-protocols/ (http://www.mictronics.de/projects/cdc-protocols/)
There are more but I have temporarily mislaid the links :(
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Point was, if you have gayphone, you have iPod music player on it. So don't need iPod specific device, as you already have one in the phone. Fan boy! ;D
Nah, no music on mine. That would mean connecting it to gayTunes, which ain't liable to happen any time soon. Saint Steve would turn in his grave if he knew my thoughts...
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Point was, if you have gayphone, you have iPod music player on it. So don't need iPod specific device, as you already have one in the phone. Fan boy! ;D
Nah, no music on mine. That would mean connecting it to gayTunes, which ain't liable to happen any time soon. Saint Steve would turn in his grave if he knew my thoughts...
Just SSH tunes to it?
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Point was, if you have gayphone, you have iPod music player on it. So don't need iPod specific device, as you already have one in the phone. Fan boy! ;D
Nah, no music on mine. That would mean connecting it to gayTunes, which ain't liable to happen any time soon. Saint Steve would turn in his grave if he knew my thoughts...
Just SSH tunes to it?
I wouldn't be so stupid as to leave SSH daemon installed on a crApple iOS device ;)
But other ways of getting tunes on, but its fussy on formats.
But I have no desire to use the gayPhone as a music player.