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Author Topic: Just ordered fag wheel barings  (Read 17079 times)

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andyc

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Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
« Reply #45 on: 23 May 2012, 08:58:36 »

If you can get FAG Hub assy for sixty five quid is it really worth mucking about trying to fine bearings that fit and to try and fit them?

Andy

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Kevin Wood

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Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
« Reply #46 on: 23 May 2012, 09:31:20 »

Surely you mean the two inners  :-\ :-\ ie the two parts that butt up to each other when you tighten the hub nut

Arhh. I'm confused too now. Anyone on this thread not confused? ::)

Bottom line, as said, the bearing consists of 4 races and 2 bearings, all of which will separate from the hub since, as henryd said, the hub is cast iron and the races will be hardened steel.

Chris, if you want to try the welding trick to get them out you're welcome to pop over. :y
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feeutfo

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Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
« Reply #47 on: 23 May 2012, 10:40:23 »

Right last time.
I have the two inner races out that fit on the shaft of the stub axle. That's the inboard and out board inner stub axle ones as you can see. Then the two baring cages are out.

That still leaves two races still in the hub. Now, those two races are part of a central ridge, one side of which you can see in the pic taken from the wheel side/back of the hub. One race either side of the ridge. That ridge is part of the hub.
The hub is steel btw.

Look at it another way. The hub rotates as it must with the wheel fixed to it. If a baring complete is pressed into that, only the inner stub axle races are held by the nut. (There's no denying that otherwise the wheel won't turn.)there for only the inner stub axle races are attached to the car! The barings spin obviously then there's the hub spinning with the wheel. Now, as I've said before, ALL the cornering forces of the car go through that centre ridge in the hub. Can you imagine the strain thats under esp with TB driving? ;D The leverage will be incredible. More than enough leverage to over come any pressing in tonnage used to force a complete baring in.

We know over tightening the nut has a slight influence on wheel baring play. That means the two stub axle inner races are being forced onto that central ridge of the hub taking out some of that play.

The outer races in the hub as pictured need to be replaced if we are to refurb the hub with completely new baring. There for two more races need to come out of the hub. Yes?


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feeutfo

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Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
« Reply #48 on: 23 May 2012, 10:47:43 »

If you can get FAG Hub assy for sixty five quid is it really worth mucking about trying to fine bearings that fit and to try and fit them?
Andy
Hi Andy, we used to use conti tech barings for £35 odd, but these turned to shite as soon as I started using them for some reason. It transpires these are not oe quality, and it was not possible to tighten out all the play.
 Hence a search for oe quality barings.
 
There is an oof legend, similar to the Carlton bush legend, that the baring can be pressed out of the hub. This a myth. :)

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henryd

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Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
« Reply #49 on: 23 May 2012, 11:01:55 »

Right last time.
I have the two inner races out that fit on the shaft of the stub axle. That's the inboard and out board inner stub axle ones as you can see. Then the two baring cages are out.

That still leaves two races still in the hub. Now, those two races are part of a central ridge, one side of which you can see in the pic taken from the wheel side/back of the hub. One race either side of the ridge. That ridge is part of the hub.
The hub is steel btw.

Look at it another way. The hub rotates as it must with the wheel fixed to it. If a baring complete is pressed into that, only the inner stub axle races are held by the nut. (There's no denying that otherwise the wheel won't turn.)there for only the inner stub axle races are attached to the car! The barings spin obviously then there's the hub spinning with the wheel. Now, as I've said before, ALL the cornering forces of the car go through that centre ridge in the hub. Can you imagine the strain thats under esp with TB driving? ;D The leverage will be incredible. More than enough leverage to over come any pressing in tonnage used to force a complete baring in.

We know over tightening the nut has a slight influence on wheel baring play. That means the two stub axle inner races are being forced onto that central ridge of the hub taking out some of that play.

The outer races in the hub as pictured need to be replaced if we are to refurb the hub with completely new baring. There for two more races need to come out of the hub. Yes?

yes, one from front and one from back :y incidently a lot of modern kit(ie focus) have the bearing pressed in but have no circlips to retain them, ???
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Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
« Reply #50 on: 23 May 2012, 11:10:50 »

....
Arhh. I'm confused too now.  ....

Not just me then ...........  :-\ :-\ ;D
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henryd

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Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
« Reply #51 on: 23 May 2012, 11:18:51 »

Just did a search Chris on the bearing number in your picture of the complete hub DACF1018L and it comes up with this

http://www.gasgoo.com/showroom/delfuparts/auto-products/1010444.html

not sure if the bearings themselves will be easy to find ???
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feeutfo

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Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
« Reply #52 on: 23 May 2012, 11:21:43 »

Right last time.
I have the two inner races out that fit on the shaft of the stub axle. That's the inboard and out board inner stub axle ones as you can see. Then the two baring cages are out.

That still leaves two races still in the hub. Now, those two races are part of a central ridge, one side of which you can see in the pic taken from the wheel side/back of the hub. One race either side of the ridge. That ridge is part of the hub.
The hub is steel btw.

Look at it another way. The hub rotates as it must with the wheel fixed to it. If a baring complete is pressed into that, only the inner stub axle races are held by the nut. (There's no denying that otherwise the wheel won't turn.)there for only the inner stub axle races are attached to the car! The barings spin obviously then there's the hub spinning with the wheel. Now, as I've said before, ALL the cornering forces of the car go through that centre ridge in the hub. Can you imagine the strain thats under esp with TB driving? ;D The leverage will be incredible. More than enough leverage to over come any pressing in tonnage used to force a complete baring in.

We know over tightening the nut has a slight influence on wheel baring play. That means the two stub axle inner races are being forced onto that central ridge of the hub taking out some of that play.

The outer races in the hub as pictured need to be replaced if we are to refurb the hub with completely new baring. There for two more races need to come out of the hub. Yes?

yes, one from front and one from back :y incidently a lot of modern kit(ie focus) have the bearing pressed in but have no circlips to retain them, ???
Yes in order to refurb the baring fully. But that's the thing, the hub race is part of the hub. It's not a baring shell separate to the hub, there for it can not be removed. In turn, there is no refurbing the hub with a new baring, as the hub itself IS the outer baring shell.
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henryd

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Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
« Reply #53 on: 23 May 2012, 11:24:36 »

Right last time.
I have the two inner races out that fit on the shaft of the stub axle. That's the inboard and out board inner stub axle ones as you can see. Then the two baring cages are out.

That still leaves two races still in the hub. Now, those two races are part of a central ridge, one side of which you can see in the pic taken from the wheel side/back of the hub. One race either side of the ridge. That ridge is part of the hub.
The hub is steel btw.

Look at it another way. The hub rotates as it must with the wheel fixed to it. If a baring complete is pressed into that, only the inner stub axle races are held by the nut. (There's no denying that otherwise the wheel won't turn.)there for only the inner stub axle races are attached to the car! The barings spin obviously then there's the hub spinning with the wheel. Now, as I've said before, ALL the cornering forces of the car go through that centre ridge in the hub. Can you imagine the strain thats under esp with TB driving? ;D The leverage will be incredible. More than enough leverage to over come any pressing in tonnage used to force a complete baring in.

We know over tightening the nut has a slight influence on wheel baring play. That means the two stub axle inner races are being forced onto that central ridge of the hub taking out some of that play.

The outer races in the hub as pictured need to be replaced if we are to refurb the hub with completely new baring. There for two more races need to come out of the hub. Yes?

yes, one from front and one from back :y incidently a lot of modern kit(ie focus) have the bearing pressed in but have no circlips to retain them, ???
Yes in order to refurb the baring fully. But that's the thing, the hub race is part of the hub. It's not a baring shell separate to the hub, there for it can not be removed. In turn, there is no refurbing the hub with a new baring, as the hub itself IS the outer baring shell.

I'd be very surprised if it is ???
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feeutfo

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Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
« Reply #54 on: 23 May 2012, 11:25:43 »

Just did a search Chris on the bearing number in your picture of the complete hub DACF1018L and it comes up with this

http://www.gasgoo.com/showroom/delfuparts/auto-products/1010444.html

not sure if the bearings themselves will be easy to find ???
As I said earlier, somebody show me a bearing to press in, available on the market. Non exists.
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feeutfo

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Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
« Reply #55 on: 23 May 2012, 11:27:23 »

Right last time.
I have the two inner races out that fit on the shaft of the stub axle. That's the inboard and out board inner stub axle ones as you can see. Then the two baring cages are out.

That still leaves two races still in the hub. Now, those two races are part of a central ridge, one side of which you can see in the pic taken from the wheel side/back of the hub. One race either side of the ridge. That ridge is part of the hub.
The hub is steel btw.

Look at it another way. The hub rotates as it must with the wheel fixed to it. If a baring complete is pressed into that, only the inner stub axle races are held by the nut. (There's no denying that otherwise the wheel won't turn.)there for only the inner stub axle races are attached to the car! The barings spin obviously then there's the hub spinning with the wheel. Now, as I've said before, ALL the cornering forces of the car go through that centre ridge in the hub. Can you imagine the strain thats under esp with TB driving? ;D The leverage will be incredible. More than enough leverage to over come any pressing in tonnage used to force a complete baring in.

We know over tightening the nut has a slight influence on wheel baring play. That means the two stub axle inner races are being forced onto that central ridge of the hub taking out some of that play.

The outer races in the hub as pictured need to be replaced if we are to refurb the hub with completely new baring. There for two more races need to come out of the hub. Yes?

yes, one from front and one from back :y incidently a lot of modern kit(ie focus) have the bearing pressed in but have no circlips to retain them, ???
Yes in order to refurb the baring fully. But that's the thing, the hub race is part of the hub. It's not a baring shell separate to the hub, there for it can not be removed. In turn, there is no refurbing the hub with a new baring, as the hub itself IS the outer baring shell.

I'd be very surprised if it is ???
I'm not. Consider the forces on that centre race in the hub.
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
« Reply #56 on: 23 May 2012, 11:36:01 »

.. and I thought I was confused before! ;)

Right, let's get the terminology consistent. What are we referring to with inner and outer? Here's my take on it:

A bearing consists of 2 races with a roller assembly sandwiched between them. In the hub you effectively have 2 bearings, hence you've ended up with 2 roller assemblies (the ball bearings).

Each of these bearings has an inner race and an outer race. The outer races have a fairly loose fit over the stub axle protruding from the suspension upright/knuckle, over which they slide. One buts against the upright on the inside, the other against the hub nut which is then tightened, drawing the two together. They are therefore firmly fixed to the car and don't move. These are the two races you have on the bench in the photo.

The inner races are a press fit into the hub, one is inserted from the inside, one from the outside. Once fully home they butt up against either side of a ridge in the centre of the bore through the hub so they can' pull right through and liberate the wheel. These inner races are still present in the hub in your photo.

The roller assemblies, which, again, you have in your photo, sit between the inner and outer races. Once the hub nut is tight, the two outer races butt together, and the two inner races butt against the ridge inside the hub. This establishes the correct clearance for free running of the bearing without it getting tight or having significant play.

The forces from the wheel are transferred from the inner races to the outer races through the roller assemblies and, with the bearing clearance correct, this is distributed around the circumference of both sets of races meaning it's very strong.

To replace the whole bearing in a hub, you need to press out the inner races, as these are wear items along with the outer races and roller assemblies. This might currently be a challenge as there might not be much of a lip between the race and the ridge inside the hub, hence the recommendation to weld something onto the race which you can then use to drift it out. The heat from the weld will also loosen the fit of the race in the hub.

For the bearing to run with the correct clearance, you are relying on the clearance between the two outer races and the clearance between the two inner races being very consistent. Note that the hub is also a variable here, as the thickness of the lip inside the hub contributes to the running clearance.

Now, the conti bearings exhibited play from day one, so something was not correct there. The assembly was too loose. Shaving a bit of material off the centre of the outer races where they butt together would tighten the bearing up a little, and I suspect this is what Mark did on Entwood's car.

Buying the hub with the bearing might help in this respect, because all the variables are in the control of the bearing supplier - hub, races and rollers, so they can engineer them for the correct clearance. Clearly didn't help with conti, though. ::)

But.. back to the point. If you bought just a bearing, intending to fit it to your existing hub, you would be supplied with 4 races and 2 roller assemblies. ;)
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Andy B

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Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
« Reply #57 on: 23 May 2012, 11:40:12 »

What Kev says  :y

.......... but I'd consider the inner & outer to be the other way round  ;)
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feeutfo

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Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
« Reply #58 on: 23 May 2012, 11:45:04 »

If it(the bearing) existed. Which it doesn't, because the hub is part of the bearing itself.
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Andy B

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Re: Just ordered fag wheel barings
« Reply #59 on: 23 May 2012, 11:46:24 »

The inners/outers that are pressed into the hub will look something like these .......... I know the whole thing looks different, but the forces on the ball race will be similar.

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