Omega Owners Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Please check the Forum Guidelines at the top of the Newbie section

Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 [10] 11 12 13   Go Down

Author Topic: LPG Conversion Still Worthwhile?  (Read 30469 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Lazydocker

  • Omega Queen
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Woodbridge, Suffolk
  • Posts: 18848
  • Constantly Bullied by a certain Admin
    • View Profile
Re: LPG Conversion Still Worthwhile?
« Reply #135 on: 05 October 2012, 23:24:53 »

Whilst I don't disagree with some of his comments... Cable ties may not corrode but they do go brittle ::) The excuse about holes is a bit of a joke when he's drilled through the "chassis" out legger and not treated the hole.

As for his comments on the EGR... Pure 'dangle berries'! Where he has run the pipe gets very hot ::) Certainly hot enough to melt a rubber hose ;)

Straws... As I said... Not really wrong but, once again, he's made up some 'dangle berries' about it... My (and most others) injectors are in the manifold, right next to the petrol injectors and they run perfectly with no power loss at all ::)

Tank security... Benefit of the doubt... As I said, can't really tel from the photo but he's quoted the correct figures for the spreaders :y

Where to go? Sounds like you either accept it or get UKLPG involved, probably having to put things right yourself in the future.

I actually agree with some of his comments, but the fact remains that it doesn't comply with COP 11 ;) I agree that a lot of it is overkill, but they are the standards it is supposed to be fitted to ;) I'm surprised that standard of workmanship took so long TBH ::) We can do it to the required standard in less time, and we aren't professionals ::)

Your call really ;) I wouldn't lose any sleep over it but it's worth mentioning the power loss as it shouldn't be there ::)
Logged
Whatever it is... I didn't do it

D

  • Omega Knight
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • SE London
  • Posts: 1111
    • 03 3.2 Elite
    • View Profile
Re: LPG Conversion Still Worthwhile?
« Reply #136 on: 05 October 2012, 23:26:12 »

Problem with cable ties are that they go brittle. I don't like the idea of rust either, but I hate the idea of lines carrying liquid lpg being unsecured beneath the car in the future.

As long as the tank is secure its all good. Oddly the tank seems to be a underbody tank that has been modified for internal use? Or maybe its the picture?

I am not sure how straws help calibrate better? They do make plenum removal/replacement more tricky. But thats not a problem at all as long the car runs perfectly.

The one thing I do not understand though. Is your installer saying that he signed off the installation and added it to the register despite the contraventions? If so he seems to be openly flouting the regulations?
Logged
Never Argue With A Fool – They Will Drag You Down To Their Level, Then Beat You With Experience!

Lazydocker

  • Omega Queen
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Woodbridge, Suffolk
  • Posts: 18848
  • Constantly Bullied by a certain Admin
    • View Profile
Re: LPG Conversion Still Worthwhile?
« Reply #137 on: 05 October 2012, 23:30:53 »

The one thing I do not understand though. Is your installer saying that he signed off the installation and added it to the register despite the contraventions? If so he seems to be openly flouting the regulations?
Because he can ;) ::) I bet if I took that in to him and said I'd fitted it he wouldn't sign it off ::) Jobs for the boys  >:( >:(
Logged
Whatever it is... I didn't do it

Rods2

  • Omega Lord
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Sandhurst Berkshire
  • Posts: 7604
    • 1999 3.0 Elite Estate
    • View Profile
Re: LPG Conversion Still Worthwhile?
« Reply #138 on: 07 October 2012, 00:53:32 »

All trade association or professional bodies, I've belonged to, you have to agree to abide by the rules.

You may not agree with them, but you MUST obey them or you leave yourself open to be disciplined by them or in a more serious breach non-compliance would form a powerful case if you were prosecuted under health and safety laws or worse and in my view quite rightly so.

Normally regulations are drawn up by people with much experience in the relevant area with the use of accident and failure reports by the police, fire brigade and other interested parties. The regulations are drawn up and then circulated for comment from people within the industry, before they are enacted. Now if the regulations are found to be flawed, they go through the same process to produce a revised set of regulations and so on. Now by not complying this installer is ignoring all of this experience and IMHO is using a very arrogant I know best attitude, which I have seen before with disastrous results.

If it was me I would be asking him to provide MTBF (mean time between failure) figures for the use of cable clips compared to metal clips, when they are used in the environment you are using them in, with them subjected many different chemicals of salt, oil grease, anti-freeze, oil, diesel to name but a few and also hot and cold temperature cycling etc, etc. If he can't his experience is limited to that nobody has come back to him with a failure so far, not very reassuring is it. :o :o :o Because all of these sorts of things have to be specified and tested by car manufactures, is why it costs over £1bn of R&D to produce a completely new model. What is his R&D budget and testing program for the bits that don't comply with the COP II regulations to make sure they are safe? My money would be on a budget of zero and his R&D is suck it and see.  :o :o :o :o

Personally, I think now that you know it does not comply with COP II, it puts you in a very awkward position, unless you insist the regulations are complied with by the installer or you take it up with the regulatory body.

This is why:

Many serious and bad transport accidents are normally caused by a series of events. With the Titanic, it was the number of lifeboats reduced from that original design, the changed specification to cheaper inferior rivets, that were too brittle, a rudder that was too small, an officer with the crows nest binoculars key, leaving at the last minute the ship before it sailed from Southampton and taking the key with him, a fire in no 1 coal hold which weakened the bulkhead, where the coal was loaded too quickly and not damped down enough, if this bulkhead had held longer, several ships that arrived a few hours after she had sunk, may of got there in time, the officer on the bridge trying to avoid the iceberg (standard practice with mail ship), rather than hitting it straight on, him putting the engines in reverse, which stopped the central propeller, which provides thrust past the rudder, which makes the ship turn better, a radio message on ice not given to the captain, and an adjacent ship ignoring distress signals and their radio was turned off and of course a ship and iceberg in the wrong places at the wrong time. A lot of factors.

No image you do nothing and in a few years you sell on the car. When the new owner is driving a couple of cable ties break through brittle fracture, so the pipe is dragging along the ground, which causes a leak. There is a tank solenoid valve, to turn the gas off when the engine stops but it is faulty and doesn't seal properly. The new owner parks it in his garage overnight, so all the gas leaks out, into a vapour layer on the floor. The next day goes to the garage through the house to garage door, which automatically shuts behind him (building regulations mean you must have an automatic closure mechanism), The garage has no windows, which would act as a blast vent, so it is a contained space which will maximise the blast effect, his walking into the garage, kicks up the gas from the floor, he then turns on the light, which arcs and there is a big explosion. The explosion kills the new owner and injures members of his family. The garage side wall collapses into the neighbours garden, where a 5 year olds birthday party is being held. The wall collapses on them causing many causalities.

When it is being investigated, one of the children was related to an OOF member who recognized the instillation pictures shown in the press and passed this thread to them. Imagine when there is a knock on your door by the investigators how you would stand legally and how many nights sleep you would lose?

Now I have told you above and what I would personally do and why. It is up to you what you do and I very much hope that whatever you decide, it works out fine and you have no problems now or in the future. Good luck.
Logged
US Fracking and Saudi Arabia defending its market share = The good news of an oil glut, lower and lower prices for us and squeaky bum time for Putin!

TheBoy

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Brackley, Northants
  • Posts: 107023
  • I Like Lockdown
    • Whatever Starts
    • View Profile
Re: LPG Conversion Still Worthwhile?
« Reply #139 on: 07 October 2012, 11:18:30 »

Problem with UKPLG, formerly LPGA (probably changed its name, due to bad reputation, like CORGI), is that its entirely set up to keep the work/profit in a small group of people, shutting others out.

There is no LEGAL reason for an LPG car to be certified (although UKLPG are successful in badgering insurers), although common sense dictates that you have had it checked for safety. Virtually all installers are thorough in their checking...  ...unless it's their own work ;)


If I'd have presented the car in the pics above to my certifier, it would have failed, as it doesn't comply with COP11.

However, as others said, its not uncommon to see laziness/poor workmanship from professional installers with the capability to self-certify.
Logged
Grumpy old man

Kevin Wood

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Alton, Hampshire
  • Posts: 36417
    • Jaguar XE 25t, Westfield
    • View Profile
Re: LPG Conversion Still Worthwhile?
« Reply #140 on: 07 October 2012, 13:52:25 »

All trade association or professional bodies, I've belonged to, you have to agree to abide by the rules.

You may not agree with them, but you MUST obey them or you leave yourself open to be disciplined by them or in a more serious breach non-compliance would form a powerful case if you were prosecuted under health and safety laws or worse and in my view quite rightly so.

Normally regulations are drawn up by people with much experience in the relevant area with the use of accident and failure reports by the police, fire brigade and other interested parties....

You are correct, of course, although I doubt there has been any serious technical expertise and endless testing applied to the UKLPG COP. They simply aren't that professional an organisation. The fact that registered installers feel they can get away with making their own decisions on what's acceptable is down to UKLPG's complete disinterest in auditing their members and investigating complaints against them. They are more interested in collecting their fees and lobbying insurers to continue their gravy train. A trade organisation that doesn't keep its' members honest is as much use as a chocolate kettle IMHO.
Logged
Tech2 services currently available. See TheBoy's price list: http://theboy.omegaowners.com/

Guinney1971

  • Intermediate Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Nottinghamshire
  • Posts: 277
    • Renault Grand Scenic
    • View Profile
Re: LPG Conversion Still Worthwhile?
« Reply #141 on: 07 October 2012, 16:02:14 »

crikey, I've just read this thread from start to finish.....   :o

As for our experiences, as you know I bought my Omega ready converted (install done in
2000 when car was new), and this year I had my LPG system serviced, which included having
a leak fixed, and they relived me of £242 !!  If I'd realised that an LPG service is just a ruddy
filter, I would have done it myself - but they did sort the leak out, so I spose thats something.

We had our V6 Renault Avantime converted by Fox's in Derby in 2009.  Sadly Peter doesn't do
conversions anymore, but he's a really knowledgeable chap, and he did the Avi for £1500 including
a flash lube system.  The Avi's conversion paid for itself in fuel savings in 10,000 miles (a years
motoring), and we get a (woohoo) whole £20 a year off our road tax as its now registered as an
'alternative fuel car'.  We'll never sell the Avantime, she's a keeper, but we wanted to be able to afford
to drive the car rather then leaving it parked up in the garage as an expensive ornament.

I hope 'Strangechap' can get the issues with his car and its install resolved successfully and amicably.

As for cable ties, I've noticed lately that they are often supplied with steering gaiter boots and CV boots,
but we always put metal ones on as I've lost count of the number of times the cable ties have failed when
a car has gone for MOT/MOT Re-Test after fitting (no matter how tight you fit them).

Claire



Logged
Claire & Phill
Renault Grand Scenic 'Maxim' 1.9dCi 120

tunnie

  • Get A Life!!
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Surrey
  • Posts: 37573
    • Zafira Tourer & BMW 435i
    • View Profile
Re: LPG Conversion Still Worthwhile?
« Reply #142 on: 07 October 2012, 16:06:44 »

crikey, I've just read this thread from start to finish.....   :o

As for our experiences, as you know I bought my Omega ready converted (install done in
2000 when car was new), and this year I had my LPG system serviced, which included having
a leak fixed, and they relived me of £242 !!  If I'd realised that an LPG service is just a ruddy
filter, I would have done it myself - but they did sort the leak out, so I spose thats something.

We had our V6 Renault Avantime converted by Fox's in Derby in 2009.  Sadly Peter doesn't do
conversions anymore, but he's a really knowledgeable chap, and he did the Avi for £1500 including
a flash lube system.  The Avi's conversion paid for itself in fuel savings in 10,000 miles (a years
motoring), and we get a (woohoo) whole £20 a year off our road tax as its now registered as an
'alternative fuel car'.  We'll never sell the Avantime, she's a keeper, but we wanted to be able to afford
to drive the car rather then leaving it parked up in the garage as an expensive ornament.

I hope 'Strangechap' can get the issues with his car and its install resolved successfully and amicably.

As for cable ties, I've noticed lately that they are often supplied with steering gaiter boots and CV boots,
but we always put metal ones on as I've lost count of the number of times the cable ties have failed when
a car has gone for MOT/MOT Re-Test after fitting (no matter how tight you fit them).

Claire


 :o :o :o :o :o :o
Logged

feeutfo

  • Guest
Re: LPG Conversion Still Worthwhile?
« Reply #143 on: 07 October 2012, 16:27:18 »

I think we are likely giving the op a heart attack tbh. There's nothing there that can't be sorted, one way or another.
Logged

Guinney1971

  • Intermediate Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Nottinghamshire
  • Posts: 277
    • Renault Grand Scenic
    • View Profile
Re: LPG Conversion Still Worthwhile?
« Reply #144 on: 07 October 2012, 16:47:29 »

and this year I had my LPG system serviced, which included having
a leak fixed, and they relived me of £242 !!  If I'd realised that an LPG service is just a ruddy
filter, I would have done it myself - but they did sort the leak out, so I spose thats something.
Claire


 :o :o :o :o :o :o

My invoice from LPG Conversions, Heanor, Derbyshire:

Labour:
Service Prins VSI LPG System £105.00
Check LPG system for leaks & replace pipes
and make and fit new Prins Injector Bracket £50.00

Parts:
180-80040 Prins VSI Inline filter kit old style
Prins VSI LPG Pipes £23.40
39.2 litres of Autogas £24.51

Total: £202.91
VAT: £40.58
Invoice: £243.49


I'm assuming the LPG Service price included the filter.......

So, knock off the full tank of gas (it ran out on way there, so I told them to fill it up),
and the service and repair of the system cost me £218.98.

Needless to say, I'll be 'servicing' it myself from now on...........

Logged
Claire & Phill
Renault Grand Scenic 'Maxim' 1.9dCi 120

TheBoy

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Brackley, Northants
  • Posts: 107023
  • I Like Lockdown
    • Whatever Starts
    • View Profile
Re: LPG Conversion Still Worthwhile?
« Reply #145 on: 07 October 2012, 18:40:12 »

I think we are likely giving the op a heart attack tbh. There's nothing there that can't be sorted, one way or another.
Indeed, although the power loss is concerning, esp if its going lean due to flow...
Logged
Grumpy old man

Lazydocker

  • Omega Queen
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Woodbridge, Suffolk
  • Posts: 18848
  • Constantly Bullied by a certain Admin
    • View Profile
Re: LPG Conversion Still Worthwhile?
« Reply #146 on: 07 October 2012, 20:29:05 »

I think we are likely giving the op a heart attack tbh. There's nothing there that can't be sorted, one way or another.
Indeed, although the power loss is concerning, esp if its going lean due to flow...
That's my biggest concern ;) At the end of the day, it's no hardship to stick a few pipe clips up if the OP chooses to (bearing in mind that COP 11 says 600mm spacing :o :o)

Rods' example is good, if not a bit extreme ::) At the end of the day, the LPG line is also clipped into the standard Vx clips underneath that the petrol lines are in ;)
Logged
Whatever it is... I didn't do it

Strangechap

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Berkshire
  • Posts: 120
    • Omega Elite 3.0 Estate
    • View Profile
Re: LPG Conversion Still Worthwhile?
« Reply #147 on: 08 October 2012, 12:49:19 »

 :o

I know my Omega handles like a big old boat, but I'd never likened it to the Titanic!

You're all right of course.

I checked the tank, it's well bolted to the boot floor. Big old chunky load spreaders too. I'm happy it's not going to leap out and attack me.

I think the best course of action is for me to ask the installer to add some pipe clips. Belt and braces. I'm also going to ask for the tubing to be rerouted further from the EGR, or a heat shield added as I agree with Lazydocker, it does indeed get very hot. The one on the Trans Am has bitten me a couple of times when I've got too close (I've now blocked it off with a plate hehe)

There's not a lot to be done with the straws. What I will do though is properly test the acceleration of the car on both gas and petrol. Probably not conclusive, but will allow me to have a better idea of any power loss on gas. I'm really not sure at the moment whether the power loss is imagined or real. The thing still goes like a bomb on gas when I plant it. Just need to quantify it properly.

Judging by some of the stories I've read, I'm guessing whoever I'd got to install this would have done a similar, or possibly poorer quality install. Unfortunately I wasn't in a position to install it myself. I stand by my decision to use the guy I did, even though his install is not up to the COP-11 standards in some areas, he is very approachable, friendly guy. I have no doubts he will comply with my requests and stand by his 2 year guarantee.

Thank you all again for your frank (and slightly scary at times :o ) opinions on the matter, and for taking the time to give me advice.
Logged

Kevin Wood

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Alton, Hampshire
  • Posts: 36417
    • Jaguar XE 25t, Westfield
    • View Profile
Re: LPG Conversion Still Worthwhile?
« Reply #148 on: 08 October 2012, 13:14:33 »

Sounds reasonable. I'm sure one of us locals will be happy to check it's basically mapped "safely" from a point of view of running lean, and comment on how it's running on LPG, if you're concerned. That's really all you need to worry about, aside from the aforementioned routing of pipes, etc.

Sadly, I think every "professional" LPG install bar one (which cost north of £2k) that we have seen on this forum has had some shortcomings, so you are absolutely correct that there would have been a few snags, whoever did the install. Some of the butchery that goes on is unbelievable, so think yourself lucky in that respect.
Logged
Tech2 services currently available. See TheBoy's price list: http://theboy.omegaowners.com/

Strangechap

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Berkshire
  • Posts: 120
    • Omega Elite 3.0 Estate
    • View Profile
Re: LPG Conversion Still Worthwhile?
« Reply #149 on: 08 October 2012, 13:23:38 »

Yeah, did lots of research into installers and I found some real horror stories. Especially the chap on this forum who has his experience on his website! (Martin Imber?)

The car does run well on LPG, which I am pleased about. I'll get the other bits sorted.

I would be really interested to have a local member check out the mapping.

I take it running lean is bad? Certainly on petrol it makes an engine run hotter doesn't it. I assume a similar result with gas?

Once I get some 0-60 and 50-70 times, I'll be in a better position to see if it is slower. The only time I thought I noticed was on a dual carriage way and I accelerated hard to 80 for an overtake and I wanted it to get there quicker, but it may well have been my imagination.

Just need to find a quiet road now. They are few and far between these days!
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 [10] 11 12 13   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.013 seconds with 17 queries.