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[cem_devecioglu]

withdrawn drugs by fda
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs
 
http://www.searcymasstort.com/blog/2012/09/09/risky-drugs-and-how-they-get-on-the-market/

The second link is a blog from a medico legal firm employee. You think that person has an unbiased view? Really? You don't think they are just touting for business?

what ? people died because they had biased views.. how you can ignore them 

cem I know English isn't your native language but surely you understand what I mean. You provide a link to say how someone thinks risky drugs are brought onto the market. This someone works for a firm that specialises in medicolegal law. Do you not think they have a vested interest? Its like me linking to an article by Kwik fit saying how unsafe tyres are below 4mm as per their research. Then saying that any tyre shop that doesn't agree with you is wrong and therefore run a mile.

unfortunately its not the only paper about that subject.. besides even if nothing exists on that subject, I live and experienced the truth .. thats enough for me..

[D]

Kidney damage is not the same as kidney blockage. Those are 2 completely different things and I am not being pedantic, just telling you the facts that the 2 are caused differently and have radically different treatments.

    
 
seriously, the body salts/minerals whatever rushing to the kidney filters block them.. so the patients stop urinating for a time..  please search more.. this happened and I dont owe any lie to anyone..

Let me try to be specific:

Renal failure/damage/injury is when the kidneys stop working as a waste clearance tool. There are various types of renal failure. In terms of urine output it can be classified into three types. 1.Oliguric i.e. when the urine volume drops below normal. 2. Normal i.e. the urine output is normal but the kidney are not going about their waste clearing function. 3. Polyuric i.e. kidneys produce lots more urine than normal but still aren't functioning as they should. The three have different causes and need differing forms of treatment.

Kidney obstruction is very different: It is a mechanical blockage to the flow of urine out of the body. Causes include stones, cancers, trauma etc. The treatment is usually dramatically different from the above paragraph.

There is no way frusemide can cause kidney blockage by salts or minerals rushing to the kidneys as you state.

I hope that makes it clearer as to why I objected to your earlier statements.

[D]

http://www.naturalnews.com/035378_hospitals_elderly_death_rates.html

No mention of Frusemide or Lasix or diuretics that I can find in that article either? Whats the point? If poor care of the elderly is your point then I agree with you. It is a global issue. But that was not what we were disagreeing about.

Again you are quoting an unrelated article - you are not making any sense now?

[D]

withdrawn drugs by fda
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs
 
http://www.searcymasstort.com/blog/2012/09/09/risky-drugs-and-how-they-get-on-the-market/

The second link is a blog from a medico legal firm employee. You think that person has an unbiased view? Really? You don't think they are just touting for business?

what ? people died because they had biased views.. how you can ignore them 

cem I know English isn't your native language but surely you understand what I mean. You provide a link to say how someone thinks risky drugs are brought onto the market. This someone works for a firm that specialises in medicolegal law. Do you not think they have a vested interest? Its like me linking to an article by Kwik fit saying how unsafe tyres are below 4mm as per their research. Then saying that any tyre shop that doesn't agree with you is wrong and therefore run a mile.

unfortunately its not the only paper about that subject.. besides even if nothing exists on that subject, I live and experienced the truth .. thats enough for me..

What is there about Frusemide again? Nothing that I can see. They mention a cancer drug, one for MS and an anticoagulant. Which of these were Lasix again? Where does it mention diuretics as one of the most dangerous drugs in the world (as you put it)?

[cem_devecioglu]

Kidney damage is not the same as kidney blockage. Those are 2 completely different things and I am not being pedantic, just telling you the facts that the 2 are caused differently and have radically different treatments.

    
 
seriously, the body salts/minerals whatever rushing to the kidney filters block them.. so the patients stop urinating for a time..  please search more.. this happened and I dont owe any lie to anyone..

Let me try to be specific:

Renal failure/damage/injury is when the kidneys stop working as a waste clearance tool. There are various types of renal failure. In terms of urine output it can be classified into three types. 1.Oliguric i.e. when the urine volume drops below normal. 2. Normal i.e. the urine output is normal but the kidney are not going about their waste clearing function. 3. Polyuric i.e. kidneys produce lots more urine than normal but still aren't functioning as they should. The three have different causes and need differing forms of treatment.

Kidney obstruction is very different: It is a mechanical blockage to the flow of urine out of the body. Causes include stones, cancers, trauma etc. The treatment is usually dramatically different from the above paragraph.

There is no way frusemide can cause kidney blockage by salts or minerals rushing to the kidneys as you state.

I hope that makes it clearer as to why I objected to your earlier statements.

ok after 1 week of low dose treatment the doctors decide to increase the dosage and I warned them.. because it caused vomitting .. but still they insisted and increased the dosage..  and urination completely stopped for 3-4 days.. While searching for related papers I have seen that one paper mentioned about this blockage..  I'm not a doctor and I cant imagine something like this myself.. 
 
anyway either it blocks or not, it damages many functions in the body .. And I concluded that correct dosage on old people with cirrhosis or kidney problems is next to impossible as it accumulates in their body..   plus the original culculaton formula had some parameters some of which are taken from blood tests may be not that hard to obtain but there were others thats not easy.. and I dont see any doctor working on it

[cem_devecioglu]

withdrawn drugs by fda
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs
 
http://www.searcymasstort.com/blog/2012/09/09/risky-drugs-and-how-they-get-on-the-market/

The second link is a blog from a medico legal firm employee. You think that person has an unbiased view? Really? You don't think they are just touting for business?

what ? people died because they had biased views.. how you can ignore them 

cem I know English isn't your native language but surely you understand what I mean. You provide a link to say how someone thinks risky drugs are brought onto the market. This someone works for a firm that specialises in medicolegal law. Do you not think they have a vested interest? Its like me linking to an article by Kwik fit saying how unsafe tyres are below 4mm as per their research. Then saying that any tyre shop that doesn't agree with you is wrong and therefore run a mile.

unfortunately its not the only paper about that subject.. besides even if nothing exists on that subject, I live and experienced the truth .. thats enough for me..

What is there about Frusemide again? Nothing that I can see. They mention a cancer drug, one for MS and an anticoagulant. Which of these were Lasix again? Where does it mention diuretics as one of the most dangerous drugs in the world (as you put it)?

D, it was just an example to show you that a licensed drug may not be as safe as you think.. please check the side effects again.. these are lasix explanation pages taken from the net.. and you can find them easily..
 
 
here is a related page
http://www.rxlist.com/lasix-drug/patient-images-side-effects.htm

[Abiton]

Cem; I believe you know that I like you and respect you (and your intelligence).  So I hope you won't mind if I say that in the circumstances of your loss, there's no way you could have a balanced rational view of this drug that is being discussed.  I'm not saying you're wrong, just that your view is inevitably changed by these tragic circumstances.

D; what sort of role do you have in medicine?
I'm really surprised that a medic would argue about a drug with a non-medic who has recently(?) been bereaved, on a car forum.   
I'm not saying you're wrong, just surprised that you think this 'quarrel' is better than simply letting cem's original statement 'go'. After all, Andrew Wakefield's notorious MMR vaccine misdirection was only possible because he was medically qualified, surely. Had he been making his claims on a car forum, methinks history may have taken a different course.

[cem_devecioglu]

Cem; I believe you know that I like you and respect you (and your intelligence).  So I hope you won't mind if I say that in the circumstances of your loss, there's no way you could have a balanced rational view of this drug that is being discussed.  I'm not saying you're wrong, just that your view is inevitably changed by these tragic circumstances.

D; what sort of role do you have in medicine?
I'm really surprised that a medic would argue about a drug with a non-medic who has recently(?) been bereaved, on a car forum.   
I'm not saying you're wrong, just surprised that you think this 'quarrel' is better than simply letting cem's original statement 'go'. After all, Andrew Wakefield's notorious MMR vaccine misdirection was only possible because he was medically qualified, surely. Had he been making his claims on a car forum, methinks history may have taken a different course.

Hiya Abiton
 
My friends and my family know that in every subject I try to be objective as much as possible , even if it kills me..
 
but during this hospital period, I have double checked every drug and intravenous solution including their dosage and last usage date..
(because my grandfather was almost dying because of a mistake)
 
my aunt is/was a doctor and I have spend long time with her.. besides I have 3 doctor friends (classmates) working as a professor in USA..
and many friends here.. I have consulted with them several times..  I brought my mother walking to the hospital and the rest you know..
 
I was about to open a case/jury against the doctors but before that I collected and read as much info as possible.. At the end of decision period  I concluded that doctors biggest mistake was ignoring some tests on a person who have coronary heart disease and ignoring cirrhose probability for more than 10 long years   plus one young doctor looking more than 40 serious patients and olders visiting daily and giving advice.. of course there were many things to criticise(and big mistakes)  (including intense care unit )  but decision on the high dose were surprisingly taken by the young doctor and a duty surgeon near me on a sunday afternoon where olders have no control.. everything turned upside down afterwards.. And I warned them but who listen!! My mistake was that I thought they knew better than me..   anyway after reading lots of pages and talking with doctor friends I decided that even if I nail those young doctors I cant bring my mother back.. And at least they tried to cure her    actually in intense care unit the doctors tried the anti drugs and solutions which was correct but didnt help because my mother had a 2 heart attack afterwrds .. her tension and many other things prooved that she was really poisoned.. which also my friends approve after I tell them my notes..
 
as for the lasix, there are lighter diuretics  which are not that lethal but lasix is a loop diuretic and is very aggressive.. even young people at age of 35-40 died from high dosage.. if anyone neglects the side effects I listed , I highly recommend checking them twice..
 
So , I accept it as  a duty to warn people in that subject..
 
 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I am so sorry for your recent loss Cem.

Didn't know until I read an entry in this thread.

[Abiton]

Thank you for not being cross with me cem. 
I am very willing to believe that in your mother's case this drug was a contributory factor in her death, and so I fully understand your disappointment with her doctors.

That doesn't mean that it is never a good drug to use though, which I think was what D is concerned that you are/were saying in your original post on the subject.
Thanks to you, I for one will certainly be asking my doctors all about it if I am ever prescribed it.  And if they are good doctors, they won't mind, IMHO.

[cem_devecioglu]

I am so sorry for your recent loss Cem.

Didn't know until I read an entry in this thread.

its not important Lizzie  

[cem_devecioglu]

Thank you for not being cross with me cem. 
I am very willing to believe that in your mother's case this drug was a contributory factor in her death, and so I fully understand your disappointment with her doctors.

That doesn't mean that it is never a good drug to use though, which I think was what D is concerned that you are/were saying in your original post on the subject.
Thanks to you, I for one will certainly be asking my doctors all about it if I am ever prescribed it.  And if they are good doctors, they won't mind, IMHO.

Abiton, trust me the best doctor for yourself is you.. because before any test you will feel something wrong inside you.. Listen your body..
 
and if you start any drug and see side effects dont neglect it , stop it and ask to more than one source 

[D]

Cem; I believe you know that I like you and respect you (and your intelligence).  So I hope you won't mind if I say that in the circumstances of your loss, there's no way you could have a balanced rational view of this drug that is being discussed.  I'm not saying you're wrong, just that your view is inevitably changed by these tragic circumstances.

D; what sort of role do you have in medicine?
I'm really surprised that a medic would argue about a drug with a non-medic who has recently(?) been bereaved, on a car forum.   
I'm not saying you're wrong, just surprised that you think this 'quarrel' is better than simply letting cem's original statement 'go'. After all, Andrew Wakefield's notorious MMR vaccine misdirection was only possible because he was medically qualified, surely. Had he been making his claims on a car forum, methinks history may have taken a different course.

I suspect I indeed have been carried away. Like you said Wakefields claim is a prime example of misdirection and something that still irritates me. One which I alluded to in one of my posts and which I felt was strongly reminiscent in cem's blanket op. Hence my initial statement and then I suspect I have been carried away by the argument. I wasn't quarrelling as you state, just trying to put the facts straight. I have spent years trying to get people to see sense about MMR, but the misdirection was so good that people refused to see through it, despite the evidence.As a closing statement I will allude to cem's last post where he states there are lighter/weaker/less lethal diuretics than Lasix. This isn't true, I know it isn't and really struggle to keep quiet when I see rubbish like this being posted. I am open to logical arguments but not stuff that has no scientific basis. I think I will stop there and pull out of this "quarrel".

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Cem; I believe you know that I like you and respect you (and your intelligence).  So I hope you won't mind if I say that in the circumstances of your loss, there's no way you could have a balanced rational view of this drug that is being discussed.  I'm not saying you're wrong, just that your view is inevitably changed by these tragic circumstances.

D; what sort of role do you have in medicine?
I'm really surprised that a medic would argue about a drug with a non-medic who has recently(?) been bereaved, on a car forum.   
I'm not saying you're wrong, just surprised that you think this 'quarrel' is better than simply letting cem's original statement 'go'. After all, Andrew Wakefield's notorious MMR vaccine misdirection was only possible because he was medically qualified, surely. Had he been making his claims on a car forum, methinks history may have taken a different course.

I suspect I indeed have been carried away. Like you said Wakefields claim is a prime example of misdirection and something that still irritates me. One which I alluded to in one of my posts and which I felt was strongly reminiscent in cem's blanket op. Hence my initial statement and then I suspect I have been carried away by the argument. I wasn't quarrelling as you state, just trying to put the facts straight. I have spent years trying to get people to see sense about MMR, but the misdirection was so good that people refused to see through it, despite the evidence.As a closing statement I will allude to cem's last post where he states there are lighter/weaker/less lethal diuretics than Lasix. This isn't true, I know it isn't and really struggle to keep quiet when I see rubbish like this being posted. I am open to logical arguments but not stuff that has no scientific basis. I think I will stop there and pull out of this "quarrel".

To me this has been a healthy fascinating debate of opinions.

I won't profess to understand it all, but it has interested me greatly and made me think

Thanks to both of you

[cem_devecioglu]

Cem; I believe you know that I like you and respect you (and your intelligence).  So I hope you won't mind if I say that in the circumstances of your loss, there's no way you could have a balanced rational view of this drug that is being discussed.  I'm not saying you're wrong, just that your view is inevitably changed by these tragic circumstances.

D; what sort of role do you have in medicine?
I'm really surprised that a medic would argue about a drug with a non-medic who has recently(?) been bereaved, on a car forum.   
I'm not saying you're wrong, just surprised that you think this 'quarrel' is better than simply letting cem's original statement 'go'. After all, Andrew Wakefield's notorious MMR vaccine misdirection was only possible because he was medically qualified, surely. Had he been making his claims on a car forum, methinks history may have taken a different course.

I suspect I indeed have been carried away. Like you said Wakefields claim is a prime example of misdirection and something that still irritates me. One which I alluded to in one of my posts and which I felt was strongly reminiscent in cem's blanket op. Hence my initial statement and then I suspect I have been carried away by the argument. I wasn't quarrelling as you state, just trying to put the facts straight. I have spent years trying to get people to see sense about MMR, but the misdirection was so good that people refused to see through it, despite the evidence.As a closing statement I will allude to cem's last post where he states there are lighter/weaker/less lethal diuretics than Lasix. This isn't true, I know it isn't and really struggle to keep quiet when I see rubbish like this being posted. I am open to logical arguments but not stuff that has no scientific basis. I think I will stop there and pull out of this "quarrel".

D, you may choose to pull out..  but I still cant understand how a professional can ignore those listed lethal side effects..  where many options are available on the market.. besides this diuretic(s) makes you more thirsty than ever and you cant stop drinking water .. and next time they give you a higher dose ..even I cant understand this logic    I think the doctors needs some mathematics