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[the alarming man]

We need that kind of thinking for Heathrow's 3rd Runway 

Yes, and the HS2 rail link tunnie

Still, the way the Coalition is thinking, speeded up planning processes will become the norm.  However I do not think we will match the Chinese practice!

Only a communist or national socialist state could do that

is that right lizzie??...you taken a trip up the A20 at sidcup.....they did that to a person up there who would'nt sell so they built the main dual carrigeway into london around his £3.5 millon house

[Lizzie_Zoom]

We need that kind of thinking for Heathrow's 3rd Runway 

Yes, and the HS2 rail link tunnie

Still, the way the Coalition is thinking, speeded up planning processes will become the norm.  However I do not think we will match the Chinese practice!

Only a communist or national socialist state could do that

is that right lizzie??...you taken a trip up the A20 at sidcup.....they did that to a person up there who would'nt sell so they built the main dual carrigeway into london around his £3.5 millon house

Ah, that's the clue TAM!

He is rich, so in our democratic capitalist system money talks. Instead of bulldozing the house as they would in the case of you and I, the multi-millionaire just got his cheque book out!!

[cleggy]

Beats the farm between carriage ways of M62 hands down!!

We owned a pub in Outlane when they built the M62 at Junction 23, and if I remember correctly the reason for splitting the carriage way was down to the geology. The chap who owned the farm at the time was offered the going rate for his property but refused it so the contractors, French, had to build underpasses for him to access his land on either side of the motorway.

He was a bit of an eccentric and put loud speakers on his roof  blasting the navvies with classical music all day.

There was a TV programme about the people who farm there now and the problems they have with burglary, lorries crashing through the barriers, and people knocking on their door at all hours for water or the telephone was ridiculous. They were used to the noise tho'

[MaxV6]

have none of you never heard of a compulsory purchase order?


any "they wouldn't sell" myths are just that, urban legends with little basis in fact...


we were fairly heavily involved in the (successful-ish) campaign to reroute the M40 extension across Otmoor....

the only way we found (quite successfully) to foil them,   was for the land owners to divide fields in to hundreds of smaller plots and sell them off at nominal cost to  people scattered all around the world....  and as many of them as possible  notifying the D.O.T  of their intention to take it to court....     making the cost of compulsory purchasing greater than the cost of re-routing.... 

D.O.T took the objection of D.O.E  and tore it up.....   the original route wiped out areas of both scientific importance (rare species habitat) economic importance (farmed land)  ,  historic importance (WW2 "fake oxford" for the german bombers )  and natural beauty.... 

only making it economically unviable, and generating huge public awareness and objections at every enquiry and planning stage....   made it less attractive to the road builders.....


so, regrettably,  it doesn't take  a facist or marxist , or mauist or communist state to do that..... 


(well,  i guess the 80's tory government might have been called facist by many    )

[TheBoy]

Yes, and the HS2 rail link tunnie

Having been to the consultations - which are more than just a little bias - I can confirm even their own business case does not add up, even if (it won't) phase 2 ever gets built.

I ended up speaking to one of the senior HS2 Ltd guys, and he admitted that they were only showing the figures and plans that showed it in the best light possible...  ...and yet everyone was still walking out thinking what a colossal waste of money this would be.

HS2's own budgets for Phase 1 are all over the place. At the consultation, the best figure (remember, they are trying to paint it in a good light) was £23bn. When quizzed if this was US billion or UK billion, they wouldn't comment.  The financial "benefit" is based purely on the fact that any train travel time is unproductive. IME, people are still working when on trains, either laptops, pen and paper, or conference calls.

If these were the people who were pitching to the Government, then I think the Government based their decisions on purposely misleading info.

Even by HS2 Ltd's own figures, the journey savings from Glasgow/Edinburgh (connecting Scotland was the Tories plan in opposition) shaves a maximum of 20-30 mins off a 4+hr trip. Is it worth the cost?

The fares are supposed to be the same as the current fares, that is an HS2 commitment according to the consultation. Thats going to cause the existing franchises - the ones that ackowledge and serve customers outside of London and Litchfield - more hardship, potentially making them unviable.



// My own political views on this, cost/benefit aside, are pretty neutral. I drive a pair of 3+ litre Omegas, so am not a greenie. And HS2 doesn't come close enough to me to really affect me, other than maybe road closures during construction.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Not dismissing the factors of cost, and doubts about "time saving", it is important with this scheme to view it on a bigger European scale.

The chance to link, through the HS1 line, onto the HS2 the whole of Europe with a fast rail line is very important.  It will suck business into GB up to the North, with a hope that the North will be a favoured area to live for jobs and prospects instead of the overcrowded SE / South / SW of England.  In due course Scotland will be included, but granted this will be a long term aim.

The long term benefits on European terms cannot be underestimated, along with just having greater capacity on our domestic rail lines.  With the ever increasing population of this country we cannot continue to think that in 50 years time we can rely on motor transport.  It will be a vastly different situation by then, and that is why now we must think ahead and build this line by about 25 years time to be prepared and improve out transport infrastructure.

Never forget of course that the Victorians built the vast majority of our existing rail system in the important years of the 1840s.  Many of these lines were always very expensive to build, and never generated a profit, but fed the overall rail system that eventually the Big Four, after January 1st 1923. made a profit on. Although those profits would decline significantly on the London & North Eastern Railway due to the loss of coal and steel traffic in the 1930s.

Railways therefore must be always viewed in the long term, with not necessarily profits produced for individual lines.  It is the overall effect that is crucial, that cannot be always seen in accounts of a railway.  Business must always  make a profit, but railways now rarely do and need Government subsidy to generate business / national advantages elsewhere, let alone providing a crucial transport link for the people; adding up to a service.

The one big problem I have got with HS2 is the idea it should be terminated at St. Pancras instead of a direct run on to the HS1 and Europe.  This WILL be a flaw in my view.

[r1]

see i dont understand why we need a faster rail line or more runways.the powers that be say we need it or trade will suffer but i thought more and more stuff was being done over the phone will conference calls and the like,and with the www.etc but prehaps theres something iam missing.

[cleggy]

Beats the farm between carriage ways of M62 hands down!!

We owned a pub in Outlane when they built the M62 at Junction 23, and if I remember correctly the reason for splitting the carriage way was down to the geology. The chap who owned the farm at the time was offered the going rate for his property but refused it so the contractors, French, had to build underpasses for him to access his land on either side of the motorway.

He was a bit of an eccentric and put loud speakers on his roof  blasting the navvies with classical music all day.

There was a TV programme about the people who farm there now and the problems they have with burglary, lorries crashing through the barriers, and people knocking on their door at all hours for water or the telephone was ridiculous. They were used to the noise tho'

Well almost correct, the geology was the reason for the motorway having divided carriageways, so never any need to compulsory purchase the farm.

The guy playing the music was a fact but probably someone else who objected to losing his property.

It was more than forty years ago It's a age thing

[MaxV6]

as far as i'm concerned , unless it has proper steam engines on it, it's a waste of time and money.....  

[cleggy]

as far as i'm concerned , unless it has proper steam engines on it, it's a waste of time and money.....

It's a waste of time and money whatever runs on it, saving 15 minutes when travelling from Brum to the Smoke, when it runs to schedule  WTF

[TheBoy]

LZ - I hear what you are saying, BUT!


Phase 2 is unlikely to ever get built. Even HS2 Ltd accept that Phase 1 is the endgame.

A gauge has not yet been determined for HS2 Phase 1, although (at the time of consultation) it was going to be unique, preventing it from running on other lines, HS1 and crossrail included. It also was unlikely to run on the rails beyond Litchfield, which kind of makes the "non stop from Mancs" etc a bit of a porkie, affecting the non-stop times they claim. There was talk of a hybrid system, but BR have a poor record in getting these things to work.

I asked, to save development costs, as it was to be a different gauge to UK, why they didn't go for an off-the-shelf gauge from one of the European ones, but it wasn't "suitable", with no further reasoning/explanation.

Lets assume it will be 4 years late, not unreasonable, so 2030. Business meetings will likely be a thing of the past, as technology takes over. Most office based workers will become home workers. Those needing to travel regularly will be those needing to be in a specific location to do their job - factory workers, retail workers (if retail still exists), nurses and so on. These are the people who won't be able to afford to use the service. Although if you look at HS2 specifically, unless to live in central Brum, or in London, and work in the other, its actually of no use whatsoever. WCML and Chiltern provide a much more useful service by stopping at locations on route. And yet, provide services that aren't that much longer timewise (and thats assuming you live at one terminus, and work at the other).

HS2 will not be used for freight. Its design will prohibit it anyway.

As to railways making a profit, they never will. Even now, all fares are sibsidised by around 50% by those of use who don't/can't use the railways. HS2 will be similar (or need even more subsidy), not including the cost of building, yet will be usable by even fewer people.

[tunnie]

The lessons have not been learned from HS1. Tickets for "High Speed" services are around 25% higher than normal services, passenger numbers are lower than expected:

http://www.nce.co.uk/news/transport/high-speed-1-underwhelming-passenger-numbers-exposed-taxpayer-to-debt-risk/8628492.article

Its a no brainer, if you are a commuter, if you get up 20 mins earlier you save 25% off your commute cost. Other way around, why would you pay 25% more just to arrive 20 minutes earlier?

Only ones that would pay that are people wanting to "experience" high speed (low numbers) or business travels that can be expensed (again not great numbers)

The bulk of season paying commuters don't like what they are paying now, all you need is Chiltern/West Coast to be cheaper and HS2 is a dead duck.

HS2 money should be spend on current infrastructure...

[Lizzie_Zoom]

as far as i'm concerned , unless it has proper steam engines on it, it's a waste of time and money.....

 

Now that IS something I agree with!

Proper railway engines those; one of my favourites:



West Country Pacific 34016 Bodmin on the Mid-Hant's Railway.  How railways should be

[Lizzie_Zoom]

LZ - I hear what you are saying, BUT!


Phase 2 is unlikely to ever get built. Even HS2 Ltd accept that Phase 1 is the endgame.

A gauge has not yet been determined for HS2 Phase 1, although (at the time of consultation) it was going to be unique, preventing it from running on other lines, HS1 and crossrail included. It also was unlikely to run on the rails beyond Litchfield, which kind of makes the "non stop from Mancs" etc a bit of a porkie, affecting the non-stop times they claim. There was talk of a hybrid system, but BR have a poor record in getting these things to work.

I asked, to save development costs, as it was to be a different gauge to UK, why they didn't go for an off-the-shelf gauge from one of the European ones, but it wasn't "suitable", with no further reasoning/explanation.

Lets assume it will be 4 years late, not unreasonable, so 2030. Business meetings will likely be a thing of the past, as technology takes over. Most office based workers will become home workers. Those needing to travel regularly will be those needing to be in a specific location to do their job - factory workers, retail workers (if retail still exists), nurses and so on. These are the people who won't be able to afford to use the service. Although if you look at HS2 specifically, unless to live in central Brum, or in London, and work in the other, its actually of no use whatsoever. WCML and Chiltern provide a much more useful service by stopping at locations on route. And yet, provide services that aren't that much longer timewise (and thats assuming you live at one terminus, and work at the other).

HS2 will not be used for freight. Its design will prohibit it anyway.

As to railways making a profit, they never will. Even now, all fares are sibsidised by around 50% by those of use who don't/can't use the railways. HS2 will be similar (or need even more subsidy), not including the cost of building, yet will be usable by even fewer people.

That bit I have not heard before TB

Gauge can cover the height and width of carriages, as well as the running lines i.e. 4 foot 8 1/2 inches, which is standard on most mainland European railways, although metre and 5 foots are not uncommon.  So, is it track gauge that is being discussed?

If so, then frankly I would welcome re-introducing Brunel's 7 foot 1/4 inch track gauge for the huge advantages that would bring    However, that would definitely preclude running through to the rest of Europe which I believe is essential.  As I do running very high speed freight trains for full commercial advantage.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

The lessons have not been learned from HS1. Tickets for "High Speed" services are around 25% higher than normal services, passenger numbers are lower than expected:

http://www.nce.co.uk/news/transport/high-speed-1-underwhelming-passenger-numbers-exposed-taxpayer-to-debt-risk/8628492.article

Its a no brainer, if you are a commuter, if you get up 20 mins earlier you save 25% off your commute cost. Other way around, why would you pay 25% more just to arrive 20 minutes earlier?

Only ones that would pay that are people wanting to "experience" high speed (low numbers) or business travels that can be expensed (again not great numbers)

The bulk of season paying commuters don't like what they are paying now, all you need is Chiltern/West Coast to be cheaper and HS2 is a dead duck.

HS2 money should be spend on current infrastructure...

But as I stated Tunnie, these high speed lines are more about the future than now.

If only Brunel's Broad Gauge had have won the day the railways would be even more advantageous than they are now