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[ozzycat]

done

[Gaffers]

I'm with Chris on this.  I am trying to hire skilled people in my sector and it is not easy.  I get plenty of IT guys trying their luck thinking I will pay for their training or support them on a fat wage while they get experience or go to E Europe and hire a fully qualified, experienced and competent IT Sec specialist....

That is because there pay is much lower than the UK, so it is easier to buy in 'cheap' labour rather than training local people, which is the point I made earlier. There is also a big global shortage of people with relevant IT skills and Eastern Europe is better than the UK in many ways with their education systems, work ethic and training of their workforce. Ukraine has the 4th best educated workforce in the world. In the UK the number of computer science graduates is dropping where we are too busy churning out Media Studies and Leisure and Tourism graduates as our next generation of burger flippers.

Because just a degree is not enough, certainly in my field.  Additional accreditations are required which cost a lot to get, I spent thousands on mine in the knowledge that if I worked hard I would get a decent job at the end.....and I did.

What I see is a lot of young and middle aged brits who almost expect me to pay for this training and support them while they get the necessary experience.....I am part of a very small company and I cannot afford that.  I fully intend to take on graduates in the future but in the meantime my recruitment is not exclusively limited to the UK because I cannot easily find what I need on these shores.  Is that my fault?  Why should I fork out money for something people can get themselves, money which would mean the difference between profit and loss?

[Johnny English]

You may allow me to say something about it. GB is one of the strongest country in the EU I can't see though why Cameron won't push Brussel to definiate a minimal rate of salary per month and a minimal social benefit that could/should be compulsory for all the EU members. If somebody got the same money would anybody so stupid as to leave the home of theirs own? Hardly believe. I've got an average salary per month that is much lower than yours it is about one-third or one fourth if the Google is right but the price level is just half to yours, which significantly means that a simple employee can't save so much money here than in England. Often impossible to save money! The other point I must mention that seems you tend to forget about your own language, which is a real investment if somebody used it well, pretty sure that lots of people just want to learn in English and don't want to leave home for London for ever. Actually 10 000 Hungarian live and work in GB and Ireland 90% of them just for learning beside some menial job and they strong decision to come home after 5-10 yrs. So if you really want to avoid an overcrowded Britannia then push your goverment to push the leader countries (France, Germany) to make closely the same circumstances all around the EU countries in point of salaries, prices, social benefits, education and so on. Remember to differenciate between criminals and simple people who work double enthusiasm, double strength as "immigrants". Can't really remember any of article I've red ever, which was about E European criminals I don't say though they are not existing the news are certainly not full of them. Unless Bulgarian, Moldavian and others from the Balkan as they come from the bottom of Europe.

[omega3000]

How many more million can we add to the population? 

Am I right in thinking there isn't enough services, housing  etc for everybody as it is! 

+1 

Well we all know who get to the front of the list first dont we for any service 

[tunnie]

It's not a question of blocking everyone, at my last job, which I enjoyed greatly, there were from memory the following nationals working at the small start up mobile company:

English
Italian
Lithuanian
Spanish
Polish
Irish
Australian
Slovenian
New Zealand
Turkish

It was company of around 35 people, maybe 50 at it's peak. The Polish chap we got in, who spoke little English, wrote more code in 8 hours than the previous English guy did in several weeks!

Fair to say that multi-million pound start up company, would not have functioned without EU members. Some of the top devs, one of whom was Turkish was on £55k.

Sadly it's the bums that come over here and want to take everything for nothing, it's that which needs to be stopped, not an out-right ban in my opinion 

[cem_devecioglu]

It's not a question of blocking everyone, at my last job, which I enjoyed greatly, there were from memory the following nationals working at the small start up mobile company:

English
Italian
Lithuanian
Spanish
Polish
Irish
Australian
Slovenian
New Zealand
Turkish

It was company of around 35 people, maybe 50 at it's peak. The Polish chap we got in, who spoke little English, wrote more code in 8 hours than the previous English guy did in several weeks!

Fair to say that multi-million pound start up company, would not have functioned without EU members. Some of the top devs, one of whom was Turkish was on £55k.

Sadly it's the bums that come over here and want to take everything for nothing, it's that which needs to be stopped, not an out-right ban in my opinion 

 
 
I can hardly pass 30K£  with one full time job + multiple projects here and there.. (and not every year)

[tunnie]

To be honest Cem, £45-55k was standard for senior developers 

They dropped a team of around 6 senior devs, all on similar money for about 50 in Brazil. Who were rubbish, took them weeks to do what one of our guys could do in hours 

[cem_devecioglu]

To be honest Cem, £45-55k was standard for senior developers 

They dropped a team of around 6 senior devs, all on similar money for about 50 in Brazil. Who were rubbish, took them weeks to do what one of our guys could do in hours 

tempting.. but  I am too old and lazy to move..

[tunnie]

To be honest Cem, £45-55k was standard for senior developers 

They dropped a team of around 6 senior devs, all on similar money for about 50 in Brazil. Who were rubbish, took them weeks to do what one of our guys could do in hours 

tempting.. but  I am too old and lazy to move..

 

Well my original point was that not all EU migrants are hear to take, lot come here and work very hard and do well 

[chrisgixer]

And that's where I'm confused.

Monopolies and mergers we all hate.  Closed shops we all hate. Yet when competition is introduced, competition that is superior as Rods suggests, we want to shut the doors, shut up shop and hide under the duvet.

Mmmmno. Not me. Where's the progress there? The development? The learning? Competition is good. Its progress. And we can't progress without it.

Uk simply can't afford arrogance in the belief we have everything we need. We don't. Professionally speaking of course.

No, we want controlled immigration to enable us to pick and choose who we allow into this country — as they do in Australia, Canada, US, etc. It's not a simple choice of immigration or no immigration. It's a question of control...and who governs that control. Call me old-fashioned if you will, but I believe such decisions should by the UK, not Brussels. 

Control needing a level of competence of course, and I don't see any in either frankly.

But this a slightly differant argument to the one presented earlier. One minute we're talking absolutes, the next it's "oh well we can let these in but no those" ..?

I think you'll find the clean end of the stick prety much always has a shity end, no matter the walk of life.

Anyway, for fear of arguing the colour of shite, be it on a stick or not, I'll agree in terms of pure numbers. It's way out of hand. IMO.


Anyone thinking of moving to Spain? Btw? Or any sunnier climes? At all....

[cem_devecioglu]

To be honest Cem, £45-55k was standard for senior developers 

They dropped a team of around 6 senior devs, all on similar money for about 50 in Brazil. Who were rubbish, took them weeks to do what one of our guys could do in hours 

tempting.. but  I am too old and lazy to move..

 

Well my original point was that not all EU migrants are hear to take, lot come here and work very hard and do well 

problem is all my family is here.. my relations etc etc.. and hundreds of lines (even more) of code days are long gone..
because you reach a point where you have many projects running and you only need to make maintenance.. its where you stop (or slow down).. and it became boring at some point..

[Varche]

You may allow me to say something about it. GB is one of the strongest country in the EU I can't see though why Cameron won't push Brussel to definiate a minimal rate of salary per month and a minimal social benefit that could/should be compulsory for all the EU members. If somebody got the same money would anybody so stupid as to leave the home of theirs own? Hardly believe. I've got an average salary per month that is much lower than yours it is about one-third or one fourth if the Google is right but the price level is just half to yours, which significantly means that a simple employee can't save so much money here than in England. Often impossible to save money! The other point I must mention that seems you tend to forget about your own language, which is a real investment if somebody used it well, pretty sure that lots of people just want to learn in English and don't want to leave home for London for ever. Actually 10 000 Hungarian live and work in GB and Ireland 90% of them just for learning beside some menial job and they strong decision to come home after 5-10 yrs. So if you really want to avoid an overcrowded Britannia then push your goverment to push the leader countries (France, Germany) to make closely the same circumstances all around the EU countries in point of salaries, prices, social benefits, education and so on. Remember to differenciate between criminals and simple people who work double enthusiasm, double strength as "immigrants". Can't really remember any of article I've red ever, which was about E European criminals I don't say though they are not existing the news are certainly not full of them. Unless Bulgarian, Moldavian and others from the Balkan as they come from the bottom of Europe.

There is a problem with doing this.  It has already happened in Spain, Italy, Greece with the Euro and that is one reason why those countries are struggling. Although wages are high in Britain everything else is costly in relation except perhaps Internet.  The ideal job would be one you can do in another country BUT get paid UK wages. Your housing costs, fuel , food would all be less and you would have more money to save or spend. Not many jobs like that though!

[Rods2]

I'm with Chris on this.  I am trying to hire skilled people in my sector and it is not easy.  I get plenty of IT guys trying their luck thinking I will pay for their training or support them on a fat wage while they get experience or go to E Europe and hire a fully qualified, experienced and competent IT Sec specialist....

That is because there pay is much lower than the UK, so it is easier to buy in 'cheap' labour rather than training local people, which is the point I made earlier. There is also a big global shortage of people with relevant IT skills and Eastern Europe is better than the UK in many ways with their education systems, work ethic and training of their workforce. Ukraine has the 4th best educated workforce in the world. In the UK the number of computer science graduates is dropping where we are too busy churning out Media Studies and Leisure and Tourism graduates as our next generation of burger flippers.

Because just a degree is not enough, certainly in my field.  Additional accreditations are required which cost a lot to get, I spent thousands on mine in the knowledge that if I worked hard I would get a decent job at the end.....and I did.

What I see is a lot of young and middle aged brits who almost expect me to pay for this training and support them while they get the necessary experience.....I am part of a very small company and I cannot afford that.  I fully intend to take on graduates in the future but in the meantime my recruitment is not exclusively limited to the UK because I cannot easily find what I need on these shores.  Is that my fault?  Why should I fork out money for something people can get themselves, money which would mean the difference between profit and loss?

I not saying you should, we all have to run our businesses how we see fit and utilise the best materials and resources for the cheapest price we can get. If we don't then over time you make losses and go out of business. Supply and demand sets wages and prices. Getting cheaper labour from Eastern Europe will reduce the rate of wage increases or deflate wages in the UK depending upon the level of demand for that skill. It will have the opposite effect in the countries where these people are emigrating from if they have in-demand skills. People with high in-demand skills are always employable, with IT that means we all have to develop and take on-board new languages and technologies, as it is easy to be out-of-date and not employable.

The 'problem' with the free movement of all labour is that the UK is creating private sector jobs whereas most Euro economies aren't with the exception of Germany, but English is a much more common second language than German and our wages are at the higher end for EU countries. So there is always going to be a natural pull towards the UK. We just have to accept that this will depress wage growth and opportunities with an average -9% real wage growth since 2007 and continuing to rise as the best mechanism for salary increases is labour shortages and this is why IT has been one of the few wage growth industries since 2007.

Personally, I think the decadence and entitlement culture of too many UK youth, where they think the world owes them a living is a major problem in this country. In Eastern Europe there is not this culture, where society has a good incentive scheme which is learnt from a very young age, work hard or starve! The biggest downside I have seen is that many have the attitude 'never mind the quality, look how quick the work was done'. My mother-in-laws favourite saying as she is bodging something is "It is not being shown in an exhibition"!

Personally, I'm currently working on going in the opposite direction, where I earn commission from various websites and selling into Western countries and having an East European cost base. 

[Marks DTM Calib]

To be honest Cem, £45-55k was standard for senior developers 

They dropped a team of around 6 senior devs, all on similar money for about 50 in Brazil. Who were rubbish, took them weeks to do what one of our guys could do in hours 

They were bloody stupid then as Brasil labour rates are higher than here and the currency moves more than Jimbobs arse on a Sunday morning at Newent

[tunnie]

To be honest Cem, £45-55k was standard for senior developers 

They dropped a team of around 6 senior devs, all on similar money for about 50 in Brazil. Who were rubbish, took them weeks to do what one of our guys could do in hours 

They were bloody stupid then as Brasil labour rates are higher than here and the currency moves more than Jimbobs arse on a Sunday morning at Newent

What can I say, that's what the American owners did who bought us. 

Sacked everyone who knew how the Europe SMS billing worked, then decided to build a new system, with 50 devs in Brazil, when we had a very narrow window each day to discuss issues 

I remember being at a meeting, where they said 'we will launch a country every 2 weeks!' (we had around 18 at the time on the old superior system) - I put my hand up and questioned about that being too challenging. No was basically the response.

6 months later, countries completed? 2 

And the result? Around 150 SMS's could be spend per hour.

The old system did around 1,500, per minute