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[Sir Tigger KC]

So are they that much different than the ex squaddies who over the years have become mercenaries and have gone to fight for corrupt regimes in Africa? 

As it happens though I do agree with Cleggy, in that the government should make it clear that any of these guys who go off for a bit of jihadist adventure won't be able to come back!   

Another thing to note is that the Western world has broadly supported the Syrian rebels where ISIS has sprung from, and we'll probably reap what we have sowed....   

[05omegav6]

That second point is a moot one Sir Tig... odds are they won't be back. As shitty as bits of this place are, they are fluffy holiday camps compared to what is happening in Syria and Iraq

Not wanting to be the doubting Thomas in the room, but have Russia actually invaded Ukraine? Really?

Given the significant implications of such an event, it would be all over the news.

If you search 'Russia invades Ukraine' all the results are either historical or speculative reports of drills

If I drive from Sussex to Berwick, have I invaded Scotland? No.
If I drive from Sussex to Berwick with 10,000 mates, have I invaded Scotland? No. Sure it might be worthy of concern, but it's not an invasion. Maintaining a presence yes, which for political leverage purposes is a pretty blunt tool, but being blunt is not an act of war in its own right

[Lizzie_Zoom]

How Russia has annexed Crimea and destabilized and is taking over Ukraine using "Asymmetric warfare" was outlined by the Russian General Staff to Putin about a year a go. The message has been there but very few have been taking any notice. This link below is a very interesting read. Their comment is that its success means it will probably be used again and again by them, which is seriously bad news for European and the worlds stability, when an unaccountable evil dictator has such levers under his control.

http://www.interpretermag.com/putins-actions-in-ukraine-following-script-by-russian-general-staff-a-year-ago/

If you follow in detail what is happening in Russia there have been over the last 12 months major clampdowns on press freedom (now non-existent, it is a state controlled propaganda machine), the Internet, blogging, personal freedom and human rights as well as foreign travel by large sections of the population. All military personnel, state officials and the judiciary have to get special permission to go abroad, unless it is in the line of duty.

Where Putin is determined to recreate the Russian empire, so Russian has some relevance in the world means he has actually been following a logical path for many years to achieve these aims. This includes paying off all foreign debt (a major cause of the collapse of the Soviet Union) to inciting protests like anti-fracking demonstrations to keep Western Europe dependent on Russian oil and gas.

All very well laughing cem but there are lives being lost here. Just anonymous names and numbers, until it is people you know. Turkey may well be in their line of sight as one of Russia's dominoes. The reason people don't want to be under Russian political leadership is that they treat the populations under their control very, very badly.

there are lives lost everywhere Rods .. all being equal worth..  either eastern or western..  or whereever..


we have fought with Russia for hundreds of years until the Ottoman Empire died and soon after Russian empire died.. 


but this is an internal affair - not even a war-  and has nothing to do with us or anyone..  in my opinion  Ukraine is a part of Russia , same people talking the same language ..


and you are only reading one sides newspapers .. Imo..

Absolutely correct Cem

Once again the Western powers are becoming, bit by bit, embroiled in other countries affairs that has little to do with them.  This is a Russian problem involving the old states of the USSR.  Those countries will learn, as we did, that the path to democracy is a long and hard one which they, and only they, have to struggle with to achieve deliverance.

Learn from history, yes! Learn that if you interfere you will pay a hell of a price and cause far greater problems than you started with.  We are currently remembering the start of the Great War. We the British felt inclined, in my opinion wrongly, to become involved. After the World lost 9 million lives,  PLUS 56 Million during WWII, we still think going to war is the answer. No, diplomacy is, every time, with the USA and Europe using the power of globalisation to achieve their aims.  In this instance though, leave the Ukraine problem alone as it is a whole mix involving Russians, Russian speaking  Ukrainians who want to be with Russia, plus Ukrainians who want democracy but are as bad as the rest when considering what others want!

Once again I am with Cem; leave it well alone!!

[chrisgixer]

What about the ginger haired fellow wondering round London enforcing Sharea(?) law than Cleggy?

I suppose he could be Irish? Maybe?

[Sir Tigger KC]

Once again the Western powers are becoming, bit by bit, embroiled in other countries affairs that has little to do with them.  This is a Russian problem involving the old states of the USSR. 

In this instance though, leave the Ukraine problem alone as it is a whole mix involving Russians, Russian speaking  Ukrainians who want to be with Russia, plus Ukrainians who want democracy but are as bad as the rest when considering what others want!

By this reckoning Lizzie, if it's OK for Russia to interfere because Ukraine is a former USSR state, then it would have been fine for Britain to go and kick some butt in Zimbabwe, to protect the English speaking ethnic Brits living there.  Had we done that Britain would have been roundly condemned by the international community and rightly so. 

Russia should stay out of Ukraine as well as the West and let the Ukrainians sort out their own problems.  I'm sure that the ethnic Russians in Ukraine are free to move to Russia if they want to live under Comrade Putin! 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Once again the Western powers are becoming, bit by bit, embroiled in other countries affairs that has little to do with them.  This is a Russian problem involving the old states of the USSR. 

In this instance though, leave the Ukraine problem alone as it is a whole mix involving Russians, Russian speaking  Ukrainians who want to be with Russia, plus Ukrainians who want democracy but are as bad as the rest when considering what others want!

By this reckoning Lizzie, if it's OK for Russia to interfere because Ukraine is a former USSR state, then it would have been fine for Britain to go and kick some butt in Zimbabwe, to protect the English speaking ethnic Brits living there.  Had we done that Britain would have been roundly condemned by the international community and rightly so. 

Russia should stay out of Ukraine as well as the West and let the Ukrainians sort out their own problems.  I'm sure that the ethnic Russians in Ukraine are free to move to Russia if they want to live under Comrade Putin! 

No, the comparison is a different one.  African States we're always part of a distant colony whose ethic roots were certainly not white British. However with Ukraine their roots from what I understand go back hundreds of years linked to what is now Russia, with Russian the common language. Perhaps I am wrong, but Ukraine is more attached to Eastern Europe and Russia than to Western Europe, and the majority of it's peoples, given what we have witnessed, think likewise.

Therefore African States have nothing to do with us British but Ukraine has everything to do with Russia. That is why I say leave it all to Russia. We must not get involved. The costs of doing so could be very costly indeed.

[cleggy]

What about the ginger haired fellow wondering round London enforcing Sharea(?) law than Cleggy?

I suppose he could be Irish? Maybe?

Looks like he is Danish and an agent of MI6

[cem_devecioglu]

How Russia has annexed Crimea and destabilized and is taking over Ukraine using "Asymmetric warfare" was outlined by the Russian General Staff to Putin about a year a go. The message has been there but very few have been taking any notice. This link below is a very interesting read. Their comment is that its success means it will probably be used again and again by them, which is seriously bad news for European and the worlds stability, when an unaccountable evil dictator has such levers under his control.

http://www.interpretermag.com/putins-actions-in-ukraine-following-script-by-russian-general-staff-a-year-ago/

If you follow in detail what is happening in Russia there have been over the last 12 months major clampdowns on press freedom (now non-existent, it is a state controlled propaganda machine), the Internet, blogging, personal freedom and human rights as well as foreign travel by large sections of the population. All military personnel, state officials and the judiciary have to get special permission to go abroad, unless it is in the line of duty.

Where Putin is determined to recreate the Russian empire, so Russian has some relevance in the world means he has actually been following a logical path for many years to achieve these aims. This includes paying off all foreign debt (a major cause of the collapse of the Soviet Union) to inciting protests like anti-fracking demonstrations to keep Western Europe dependent on Russian oil and gas.

All very well laughing cem but there are lives being lost here. Just anonymous names and numbers, until it is people you know. Turkey may well be in their line of sight as one of Russia's dominoes. The reason people don't want to be under Russian political leadership is that they treat the populations under their control very, very badly.

there are lives lost everywhere Rods .. all being equal worth..  either eastern or western..  or whereever..


we have fought with Russia for hundreds of years until the Ottoman Empire died and soon after Russian empire died.. 


but this is an internal affair - not even a war-  and has nothing to do with us or anyone..  in my opinion  Ukraine is a part of Russia , same people talking the same language ..


and you are only reading one sides newspapers .. Imo..

Absolutely correct Cem

Once again the Western powers are becoming, bit by bit, embroiled in other countries affairs that has little to do with them.  This is a Russian problem involving the old states of the USSR.  Those countries will learn, as we did, that the path to democracy is a long and hard one which they, and only they, have to struggle with to achieve deliverance.

Learn from history, yes! Learn that if you interfere you will pay a hell of a price and cause far greater problems than you started with.  We are currently remembering the start of the Great War. We the British felt inclined, in my opinion wrongly, to become involved. After the World lost 9 million lives,  PLUS 56 Million during WWII, we still think going to war is the answer. No, diplomacy is, every time, with the USA and Europe using the power of globalisation to achieve their aims.  In this instance though, leave the Ukraine problem alone as it is a whole mix involving Russians, Russian speaking  Ukrainians who want to be with Russia, plus Ukrainians who want democracy but are as bad as the rest when considering what others want!

Once again I am with Cem; leave it well alone!!

all agreed Lizzie

[cem_devecioglu]

one important fact is; Russia have lots of investments,money and effort in Ukraine like factories, energy units, schools, universities, banks, govt buildings, roads, hospitals and many other things.. if you expect Russians and Putin to say bye bye to this much money , effort and history, I'm afraid you have to wait long

[chrisgixer]

one important fact is; Russia have lots of investments,money and effort in Ukraine like factories, energy units, schools, universities, banks, govt buildings, roads, hospitals and many other things.. if you expect Russians and Putin to say bye bye to this much money , effort and history, I'm afraid you have to wait long

Sevastopol. Access to the Mediterranean and the western seas. Russia will never let that go. Ever.

[Rods2]

Once again the Western powers are becoming, bit by bit, embroiled in other countries affairs that has little to do with them.  This is a Russian problem involving the old states of the USSR. 

In this instance though, leave the Ukraine problem alone as it is a whole mix involving Russians, Russian speaking  Ukrainians who want to be with Russia, plus Ukrainians who want democracy but are as bad as the rest when considering what others want!

By this reckoning Lizzie, if it's OK for Russia to interfere because Ukraine is a former USSR state, then it would have been fine for Britain to go and kick some butt in Zimbabwe, to protect the English speaking ethnic Brits living there.  Had we done that Britain would have been roundly condemned by the international community and rightly so. 

Russia should stay out of Ukraine as well as the West and let the Ukrainians sort out their own problems.  I'm sure that the ethnic Russians in Ukraine are free to move to Russia if they want to live under Comrade Putin! 

Firstly and I cannot emphasize this more strongly, Ukrainians are not Russians any more than the Irish are English. Yes, the Irish are Celts like the Welsh and Scots, likewise Russians, Ukrainians are Slavs, but like the Irish and English they have different cultures. They also like the Irish with Eire, their own nation, which they want to keep. If we decided to send a 5th column and irregular troops into Eire to put it back under British subjugation we would be, quite rightly, condemned internationally and could expect sanctions or worse. The Irish are proud of their nation, their independence and their right to self-determination and likewise so are the Ukrainians. This is why the Ukrainian anti-western presidential candidates in the May election only got 8% of the vote between them. All regions voted with a majority for the current President where they are united against a common enemy Russia. The Russian terrorists in East Ukraine have been bitterly complaining they have received virtually no support from the local population who don't want them there and that includes the ethnic Russians, who also like the freedoms, denied in Russia like a free press, freedom of expression, the right to demonstrate, belong to free trade unions etc., etc.

Putin, like Stalin and Hitler is out to build an empire. Their economy is tanking and thats make him and his ambition to be president for life vulnerable. What he is doing is about Putin and his survival as a dictator, along with his 'yes man' inner circle, not anything else and this is what makes the situation in Eastern Europe so dangerous. If he gets away with this, Moldova and Belarus will be next, followed by the Baltic states, then the rest of Eastern Europe, unless NATO and the US intervene to stop him and I think we all know what that will mean.

Hitler was encouraged by appeasement and indifference and likewise Putin is relying on the same with his "Asymmetric Warfare and Plausible Deniability". This is a new form of 21st century warfare or the revival of an old one used in the 19th century?

Whether we like it or not we are all part of planet earth and pawns in the major powers "Great Game" (which was coined by the British as part of the British-Russian wars and vying for influence in Asia in the 19th century) that has been going on hundreds of years. Unfortunately, when a major power decides to rewrite, what the rest thought were agreed rules of conduct, treaties and International Law, using military might, it is very easy for many countries to get drawn in to protect their interests, which we have seen with WWI and WWII.

[05omegav6]

Civilised nations play by the rules, hostile ones don't,  that's why the German heavy cruisers in WW2 were a third larger than ours.

We only get drawn into conflicts if we allow ourselves to be.

First step would be to close the EUs eastern border. This would make a clearly defined line of acceptability,  with well defined consequences. Our response if this line is crossed would be to batten down the hatches, because the shit will really hit the fan. A side effect of the Cold war is that the main European motorway network leads straight to Moscow. This clearly works both ways.

It's 1600 miles, by motorway, from Moscow to Calais, about 32 hours at 50mph, so depending on Belarus, expect to lose Poland before any defence is mounted

[cem_devecioglu]

one important fact is; Russia have lots of investments,money and effort in Ukraine like factories, energy units, schools, universities, banks, govt buildings, roads, hospitals and many other things.. if you expect Russians and Putin to say bye bye to this much money , effort and history, I'm afraid you have to wait long

Sevastopol. Access to the Mediterranean and the western seas. Russia will never let that go. Ever.

yep.. thats the most critical fact that Russians solved at the blink of an eye..

[Rods2]

one important fact is; Russia have lots of investments,money and effort in Ukraine like factories, energy units, schools, universities, banks, govt buildings, roads, hospitals and many other things.. if you expect Russians and Putin to say bye bye to this much money , effort and history, I'm afraid you have to wait long

Sevastopol. Access to the Mediterranean and the western seas. Russia will never let that go, until their next political collapse.

There you go, I've fixed that for you. Long term, Russia will collapse again, where Putin's dictatorial style of government is unsustainable. Most regions provide money inflows to Moscow, where a teacher and a skilled worker will earn $2000 a month, where in the regions they only earn $200 or less. This is increasing resentment and tensions that will not go away without Moscow having less (which is not possible under Putin) and the regions having more. When Russia collapses again then the semi-Federated states, many of whom have ethnic majorities will become independent states, hence due to political mismanagement, Russia will get even smaller and insignificant. Crimea may become part of Chechnya or Ukraine again. Crimea is too weak economically to be an independent country without an external benefactor to the tune of $6bn a year.

Demographics are a challenge for all of Europe, but long term are especially challenging for Ethnic-Russians and some other ex-Soviet states. As things stand major population growth (but slowing down) is mainly happening in Africa, South America, Asia and the Middle East. Where Adults have about 40 hours of economic output from the ages of 20 to about 60, this matters in terms of long term economic strength, until Robots and AI machines are clever and cheap enough to take over doing the majority of work.

[cem_devecioglu]

Once again the Western powers are becoming, bit by bit, embroiled in other countries affairs that has little to do with them.  This is a Russian problem involving the old states of the USSR. 

In this instance though, leave the Ukraine problem alone as it is a whole mix involving Russians, Russian speaking  Ukrainians who want to be with Russia, plus Ukrainians who want democracy but are as bad as the rest when considering what others want!

By this reckoning Lizzie, if it's OK for Russia to interfere because Ukraine is a former USSR state, then it would have been fine for Britain to go and kick some butt in Zimbabwe, to protect the English speaking ethnic Brits living there.  Had we done that Britain would have been roundly condemned by the international community and rightly so. 

Russia should stay out of Ukraine as well as the West and let the Ukrainians sort out their own problems.  I'm sure that the ethnic Russians in Ukraine are free to move to Russia if they want to live under Comrade Putin! 

Firstly and I cannot emphasize this more strongly, Ukrainians are not Russians any more than the Irish are English.


thats an interesting generalisation.. at least they live in a seperate island (although not far) but there is no physical border for ukraine except the carrot expecting ukrainians claims   everyone knows why ukraine turned their back to Russia .. but their expectations are as empty  as their stomach


Yes, the Irish are Celts like the Welsh and Scots, likewise Russians, Ukrainians are Slavs, but like the Irish and English they have different cultures.


They also like the Irish with Eire, their own nation, which they want to keep. If we decided to send a 5th column and irregular troops into Eire to put it back under British subjugation we would be, quite rightly, condemned internationally and could expect sanctions or worse.
lets be realistic who is going to do this


 The Irish are proud of their nation, their independence and their right to self-determination and likewise so are the Ukrainians. This is why the Ukrainian anti-western presidential candidates in the May election only got 8% of the vote between them.


can you guarantee that this voting result was without any intervention..


All regions voted with a majority for the current President where they are united against a common enemy Russia. The Russian terrorists in East Ukraine have been bitterly complaining they have received virtually no support from the local population who don't want them there and that includes the ethnic Russians, who also like the freedoms, denied in Russia like a free press, freedom of expression, the right to demonstrate, belong to free trade unions etc., etc.


never in my life I have seen a free press on this planet


Putin, like Stalin and Hitler is out to build an empire. Their economy is tanking


thats a highly debatable subject..


and thats make him and his ambition to be president for life vulnerable. What he is doing is about Putin and his survival as a dictator,


using dictator word for the Putin is not correct.. if he was, Ukraine would be invaded long time ago and no opponents would be left alive..


along with his 'yes man' inner circle, not anything else and this is what makes the situation in Eastern Europe so dangerous. If he gets away with this, Moldova


stop there.. Moldova is so poor that even any african country wouldnt accept to join with them  




 and Belarus will be next, followed by the Baltic states, then the rest of Eastern Europe, unless NATO and the US intervene to stop him and I think we all know what that will mean.

Hitler was encouraged by appeasement and indifference and likewise Putin is relying on the same with his "Asymmetric Warfare and Plausible Deniability". This is a new form of 21st century warfare or the revival of an old one used in the 19th century?

Whether we like it or not we are all part of planet earth and pawns in the major powers "Great Game" (which was coined by the British as part of the British-Russian wars and vying for influence in Asia in the 19th century) that has been going on hundreds of years. Unfortunately, when a major power decides to rewrite, what the rest thought were agreed rules of conduct, treaties and International Law, using military might, it is very easy for many countries to get drawn in to protect their interests, which we have seen with WWI and WWII.