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[Sir Tigger KC]

That's a massive assumption, as we don't know what kind of UK\EU trade deal will be put in place in the event of Brexit.   

Its a fair assumption, as we aren't big enough like China, and other governments also need to raise shitloads of cash.

Assumptions or opinions, massive, fair or otherwise shouldn't be presented as facts. That's all. 

I was glad though to see Cameron rule out a second referendum.   If we vote to leave and invoke Article 50, then our negotiating position would be weak and the EU would demand very unfavourable terms for Britain's exit terms, to force a 'stay' vote in a second referendum. 

[Lazydocker]

That's a massive assumption, as we don't know what kind of UK\EU trade deal will be put in place in the event of Brexit.   

Its a fair assumption, as we aren't big enough like China, and other governments also need to raise shitloads of cash.

Assumptions or opinions, massive, fair or otherwise shouldn't be presented as facts. That's all. 

I was glad though to see Cameron rule out a second referendum.   If we vote to leave and invoke Article 50, then our negotiating position would be weak and the EU would demand very unfavourable terms for Britain's exit terms, to force a 'stay' vote in a second referendum. 

There can't be a second vote. This one is it. The UK will have to live with the outcome, either way. I, however, hopefully won't!

[Viral_Jim]

No one understands the issues involved, it will just be the immigration thing that might get them off their arses & down the road to vote.
If it`s a vote to leave the EU then Cameron is finished & IDS & his cronies will wheel out the ID card borricks again. IDS has already said that if we leave the EU, "it will help to prevent a Paris style Massacre"; the sh%t stirer.
Who in their right minds thinks that the current Govt. has the remotest idea what the hell they`re going do if  leave the EU.
What a bloody shambles.

This is the crux of the issue. Cameron agreed on the EU referendum in order to strike a deal with the more right wing tories at the last election. IMHO iIts not something that should be put to a referendum at all but we are where we are. Personally I don't share the leave campaign's optimism about what sort of trade deal we will get. I think its very telling that the two comparisons which are made are Norway and China. Neither of whom's position is remotely similar to our own.

let's just say that the result of the upcoming referendum could well finalise our decision as to whether we try to emigrate!

My wife and I are in this position too, as are a number of colleagues of mine. Until recently I worked for a FTSE 100 engineering firm, you know, the sort all the politician's love to be photographed in ;-). Its well known internally that a brexit will likely trigger the company moving its HQ into mainland europe - doubtless part-financed by generous EU incentives to do so.

If they do, about 450 jobs will go with them, along with tens/hundreds of millions in income tax, corporation tax,  NI etc. People need to think more broadly than the "it costs us €x per day to stay in" argument. If we leave the EU, we will be competing with them for investment from outside Europe. I'm not sure thats a competition we are likely to win.

Sadly though, I suspect its going to be overly-simplified "it costs us €x per day to stay in" type soundbites and "Immigrants stole my spaniel" type media bulls**t that will end up deciding the argument. 

[Kevin Wood]

Rods2 has hit on the crux of my only problem with the EU (but it's, unfortunately, a big problem). We are headed into an "Ever closer" political union that is fundamentally undemocratic. Let's ask Tony Benn's 5 questions of the EU:

In the course of my life I have developed five little democratic questions. If one meets a powerful person--Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin or Bill Gates--ask them five questions: “What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.

Not looking too good, is it?

The one (and only) thing I respect Nigel Farage for, personal insults aside, is, effectively, asking this of the EU president:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dranqFntNgo

He's got a good point, IMHO. The EU is taking over more and more of our sovereignty, yet there is only the most tenuous link between the MEPs we vote for and those at the top, who are, on the whole, failed politicians at the national level. How do we keep them honest and acting in our interests?

Cameron's negotiations are a complete irrelevance to me. Migrants and benefits are just a side issue, and he's making a pathetic attempt to respond to tabloid mischief. In my view, you can't pick and choose. If you give people access to our labour market, the benefits system comes with it. On asylum seekers, well, large areas of the middle east are becoming inhospitable. They won't go away as a result of some meddling in european politics. These aren't issues that are significant enough to contemplate causing the sort of shitstorm that leaving the EU will.

On the other hand, millions of lives were lost sorting things out the last time democracy failed on a large scale across mainland Europe. I'm not in any way comparing that with the present situation, but I believe we should guard the democracy we fought for very closely.

We have a one time chance to answer Benn's 5th question before it's lost for good. I don't doubt that life will be made very hard for us in the short term if we reject the EU, but I do wonder if it's a stand we need to make for future generations.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Very well said Kevin. You got right to the heart of the matter. I was sat here thinking of how to express my view on this, but you said it much better than I could have done.
Most of the debate seems to be restricted to economic matters, and in my view the fact that Iceland, an economic minnow with a population the same size as Coventry, negotiated a trade deal with China, why could we do at least as well, if we were free to do so ?
We are the 5th largest economy in the world. Our economy is becoming more dynamic, while the rest of the EU is in a downward spiral with no sign of recovery. Our trade with the EU is falling fast while trade with the wider world is growing faster.
I could go on and on......
Economics, trade, etc. is not the most important factor though. If we allow it to become so, then we have allowed ourselves to become economic slaves.
The EU is utterly undemocratic and becoming less so, with each new power grab. Despite what Cameron says, the ratchet will only ever work one way. Its only possible chance of success (without reverting to being a common market) is through much more integration on everything from taxation to defence.
Its at a mid point in that regard currently, and it isn't working. It needs to either select reverse gear or go full speed ahead, and Juncker has already said that the EU doesn't have a reverse gear.
If we vote to remain, once the dust has settled, further integration will happen and happen quickly imo.
I cannot see how we could end up suffering as a result of leaving. It is against EU and international law to take punitive action against a state which leaves, and that is beside the fact that we are the EU,s biggest export market and have a much bigger stronger economy than most of them put together.
We would be in an extremely strong position to negotiate a very favourable trade deal with them.
But even if we weren't, I would rather be a free poor man than a (relatively) wealthy slave.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Despite all that has been said here.......I believe there will be a second referendum if the will of the people is not to the liking of some.

Maybe even a third. 

That's democracy for you.

[Rods2]

Despite all that has been said here.......I believe there will be a second referendum if the will of the people is not to the liking of some.

Maybe even a third. 

That's democracy for you.

I agree if we vote to leave, the EU has a history of making concessions, and then getting the politicians to have another referendum until people vote the 'right way' and if the 'ins' win it will be like Scotland, a problem where the 'outs' will be such a large minority the issue is not going to go away.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Is it me? Or could Boris be Donald's love child?   

[Kevin Wood]

Is it me? Or could Boris be Donald's love child?   

[Shackeng]

This is one of the stupidities that really ticks me off 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10565686/The-farce-of-the-EU-travelling-circus.html

[Kevin Wood]

This is one of the stupidities that really ticks me off 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10565686/The-farce-of-the-EU-travelling-circus.html

They should let the Belgians keep it. It's the closest they've got to a functioning parliament!

[Terbs]

Easy way out of this....Ms Sturgeon is already bleating on about a Scottish referendum for independence if the vote is to leave. What a back door excuse for her to get what they really want !!!!!

So...simples.....all the Scottish Nationalists vote out, this will boost the out vote. Then once out, Sturgeon will call for the thing nearest her heart, an independence referendum. If, as she spouts on about, the Scots want to be in Europe, the Nationalists will win easy this time, and she can go and join Europe if she wishes.
Everybody happy all round !!!!

[Viral_Jim]

Except that Ms Merkel won't have her. The Germans (who lets face it are the ones actually running the EU) got their fingers burnt by bending the rules to bring in a bunch of Eastern European states who are now a significant drain on the EU's resources. They have all the sick lame and lazy they can deal with so aren't gonig to accept a country with a dubious economy that has (probably) just defaulted on a large amount of sovereign debt.

TBH I wish the scots had voted for independence, they'd be screwed due to the low oil price by now 

[05omegav6]

Except that Ms Merkel won't have her. The Germans (who lets face it are the ones actually running the EU) got their fingers burnt by bending the rules to bring in a bunch of Eastern European states who are now a significant drain on the EU's resources. They have all the sick lame and lazy they can deal with so aren't gonig to accept a country with a dubious economy that has (probably) just defaulted on a large amount of sovereign debt.

TBH I wish the scots had voted for independence, they'd be screwed due to the low oil price by now 

Er no... Orkney and Shetland would have become independent of Scotland if that vote had gone the other way, so would have remained in the UK

[aaronjb]

Interesting.. the poll here is massively in favour of the Brexit.

Polls in the paper seem to be roughly 50% in favour of staying in.

My prediction: We'll stay in by a narrow margin, Merkel will send in the troops to pacify us and we'll be come the New German Western Front.

I might have exaggerated the last bit.