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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Syria
« Reply #60 on: 07 April 2017, 23:59:57 »

Meanwhile, in Damascus... :-\
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Syrias
« Reply #61 on: 08 April 2017, 00:14:50 »

Pictures following the attack shows debris, but major damage aircraft pens, or aircraft themselves, I think not.

Is that all 59 missle scan do?  WWII Lancasters could do far more damage with earthquake bombs, especially the biggest, the 22,000lb Grand Slam.  Those aircraft pens and the aircraft inside would have been obliterated. :D ;)

It has been said tonight that as Russian hardware shared this airfield they were warned in advance of the attack. Eh, what!! :o :o :o

Well yes I agree, but a WWII bomber raid was pretty dangerou,s for the crew, plus the actual bombing was a bit haphazard with a lot of "collateral damage", drop a pile of stuff and hope some of it hits the target. Modern missiles are much more precise (so they say) with GPS guidance etc, but probably with a smaller payload, unless of course  . . . . . it's nuclear  :o

In fact the success rate for the dropping of both the Tallboy and Grand Slam earthquake bombs was very high. The main V1 and V2 production facilities, various U-boat pens, the battleship Tirpitz, and the main railway tunnel on the line to Normandy were amongst targets successfully hit with devastating results.  One reason for this was the famous 617 squadron was involved, and secondly they were by then using a new precision bomb sight.

Using very expensive missiles may be the modern way, but looking at the pictures released I know the earthquake bombs of Barnes Wallace would have decimated the targets. The aircraft pens with aircraft still in them post attack should not be still there. A 21st century delivery system used with the bombs in question would produce far better results.

The Tirpitiz never sailed again; no more V1 or V2's were produced; the U-boats never used the pens again, and no panzer loaded trains ever again went to Normandy via the tunnel. Compare that to the observation that Syrian aircraft have again taken off from that airfield ;)
« Last Edit: 08 April 2017, 00:31:03 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Rods2

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Re: Syria
« Reply #62 on: 08 April 2017, 01:55:43 »

Lying requires consistency and IME the Russians are very, very, bad at this. They are much, much better at telling a good story, just not good enough under intense scrutiny and actual evidence. :o :o :o Which is why their/Assad not damaged here, anti-US narrative isn't going so well, apart from the British Buggering Corporation.

Human nature with propaganda needs to be taken into account and the Vulcan attack on Port Stanley is a very good lesson on this. The bravo UK on a very limited and not very successful attack has to be weighted against the physiological impact on the Argentinians where we showed we could attack with 'heavier' forces with impunity, but their are much better examples of this:

The Royal Navy for hundreds of years have accepted losses in the line of battle. The battle of Jutland was about the German Grand fleet breaking the British blockade of Germany, if they failed they would lose WWI. The UK lost more ships mainly through the loss of Battle cruisers, which were over-gunned cruisers, with inadequate armour, which when penetrated with 14-15" shells they penetrated the magazine with fatal results (The same happened to HMS Hood in WWII against the Bismark). Despite more losses Admiral Jellicoe kept pressing and only broke off the engagement when he was worried it was a trap to lure the UK fleet, so they could be attacked by U-boats. The victory was that the German Grand Fleet never challenged the Royal Navy again on the high seas and Germany lost WWI. :y :y

Now lets fast forward to 1982. General Belgrano was 'allegedly' sailing to intercept and a attack the UK carriers but HMS Conqueror, 'quietly' sorted out the error of her ways with a couple of Mk42's. The outcome was that the Argie navy never left port again to challenge the Royal Navy. :y :y

Trump, quite IMO has set down a marker (and made the world a safer place) to show that challenging US hegemony and red lines has consequences in a way that Obama disasterously failed to do and made the world a much more dangerous place, where every tyrant and misfit dictator were prepared to try it 'on' and see what they could get away with. They now know, it is much less than before. :y :y
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Syria
« Reply #63 on: 08 April 2017, 10:05:15 »

Lying requires consistency and IME the Russians are very, very, bad at this. They are much, much better at telling a good story, just not good enough under intense scrutiny and actual evidence. :o :o :o Which is why their/Assad not damaged here, anti-US narrative isn't going so well, apart from the British Buggering Corporation.

Human nature with propaganda needs to be taken into account and the Vulcan attack on Port Stanley is a very good lesson on this. The bravo UK on a very limited and not very successful attack has to be weighted against the physiological impact on the Argentinians where we showed we could attack with 'heavier' forces with impunity, but their are much better examples of this:

The Royal Navy for hundreds of years have accepted losses in the line of battle. The battle of Jutland was about the German Grand fleet breaking the British blockade of Germany, if they failed they would lose WWI. The UK lost more ships mainly through the loss of Battle cruisers, which were over-gunned cruisers, with inadequate armour, which when penetrated with 14-15" shells they penetrated the magazine with fatal results (The same happened to HMS Hood in WWII against the Bismark). Despite more losses Admiral Jellicoe kept pressing and only broke off the engagement when he was worried it was a trap to lure the UK fleet, so they could be attacked by U-boats. The victory was that the German Grand Fleet never challenged the Royal Navy again on the high seas and Germany lost WWI. :y :y

Now lets fast forward to 1982. General Belgrano was 'allegedly' sailing to intercept and a attack the UK carriers but HMS Conqueror, 'quietly' sorted out the error of her ways with a couple of Mk42's. The outcome was that the Argie navy never left port again to challenge the Royal Navy. :y :y

Trump, quite IMO has set down a marker (and made the world a safer place) to show that challenging US hegemony and red lines has consequences in a way that Obama disasterously failed to do and made the world a much more dangerous place, where every tyrant and misfit dictator were prepared to try it 'on' and see what they could get away with. They now know, it is much less than before. :y :y

Just to add to that great summary; the German High Seas Fleet had a maximum armament of 12 inch main guns.  It was the British Grand Fleet that had 15 inch guns on their Queen Elizabeth class super dreadnoughts, four of the class being in the Fifth Battle Squadron, that tailed behind the First Battlecruiser Squadron.  It was poor fire controls on the battlecruisers that has been found to be the main cause of the loss of 3 of their number.  The German battle cruisers also had light deck armour, and took some hits that should have proved as fatal as on the Royal Navy ships, but for the greatly superior fire controls undertaken as the norm by their crews.

The loss of the Hood 25 years later to the Bismark and Prinz Eugen was however down to the heavy shells of the battleship and  battlecruiser penetrating the weak deck armour on about five occasions, then igniting the main stern magazine with a flash fire going to the forward magazine.  The Hood's stern and bow were blown off, the main middle section then sunk, with the other pieces quickly following within 3 minutes.  Just 3 men survived.

The truth is the battlecruisers were a flawed concept as originally their value lay in their great speed, 25 knots and heavy armament of eight 12 inch guns, but at the expense of only being fitted with light armour.  Development of the dreadnoughts into the five British super dreadnoughts that had a top speed of 24-25 knots, eight 15 inch guns, and very heavy armour greatly narrowed the "advantage" of any battlecruiser in both the British and German navies. The German battleships also started to catch up in terms of speed and armament, and by WWII the British battlecruiser HMS Hood had little, if any, advantage over the German battleship Bismark that had it all; speed, armament and very heavy armour.  At Jutland the Vice Admiral Sir David Beatty also, to compound the issues, allowed his battlecruiser squadron to approach far to close to the German High Seas Fleet and not take full advantage of the range of his main armament; 14 miles compared to the German's 11 miles.  In fact it was the German fleet that opened fire first once in range of the battlecruisers. The other crucial factor was also the fact that Beatty had taken his fleet away from the very significant back up of the super dreadnoughts that would have provided the heavy fire power, 15 inch shells with a range of up to 15 miles, to cover the battlecruisers. 

But overall, as Rod2 states, Jutland proved to the German High Seas Fleet that they could not effectively destroy the Royal Navy's command of the North Sea. The High Seas Fleet was designed to be a "Risk Fleet"; the thought being that the German fleet could inflict maximum damage of the Grand Fleet with it's smaller risk fleet and thus create a chance that they could equal it in size for the major der Tag, that in fact both the British and Germans were hoping for. The Risk Fleet soon realised at Jutland that the risk was too great and only sailed out of it's base again as a fleet on the 18th August 1916 as they thought a small British fleet was sailing out into the North Sea. They then got news it was the full Grand Fleet and, without firing a shot, turned tail and sailed back to port, only to reappear after the Armistice in 1918 to surrender to the Royal Navy and anchor in Scapa Flow where they scuttled their ships.

The World power had shown their might, again, and advertised who was boss :y
« Last Edit: 08 April 2017, 10:17:35 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: Syria
« Reply #64 on: 08 April 2017, 11:45:08 »

How to spend $59,000,000 in a very short time!  :o  ::)

I didn't type spend  ::) , but meant to say How to ejaculate $59,000,000 in a very short time!  ;D

Did you know that in the original book by Conan Doyle, Doctor Watson ejaculated twice as often as Holmes.
An apple a day and all that... :D



For the purpose of clarification.

Ejaculation/ejaculated was a common form of exclamation, surprise or anger  in the Victorian period.

For example........." exactly what the blood and stomach pills are you doing, Watson" Holmes angrily ejaculated. :)


.......anyway, back to that nasty Mr Assad.
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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: Syria
« Reply #65 on: 08 April 2017, 12:02:21 »

How to spend $59,000,000 in a very short time!  :o  ::)

I didn't type spend  ::) , but meant to say How to ejaculate $59,000,000 in a very short time!  ;D

Did you know that in the original book by Conan Doyle, Doctor Watson ejaculated twice as often as Holmes.
An apple a day and all that... :D



For the purpose of clarification.

Ejaculation/ejaculated was a common form of exclamation, surprise or anger  in the Victorian period.

For example........." exactly what the blood and stomach pills are you doing, Watson" Holmes angrily ejaculated. :)


.......anyway, back to that nasty Mr Assad.

Quite.  ::)

Why 59 cruise missiles?  ??? 

My theory is that due to O'Bummers inaction the US military has a lot of ordinance mouldering away and these 59 missiles were coming up to their use by date. At about $1,000,000 a piece, Trump thought that that it would be a complete waste of taxpayers money to scrap them so thought he'd give his visitor the Chinese President Xi Jinping a fireworks show!  :)
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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: Syria
« Reply #66 on: 08 April 2017, 12:43:58 »

I agree with Lizzie that the damage caused by 59 'state of the art'  missiles was less than impressive. A dustpan and brush is probably all that's required. :-\
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Syria
« Reply #67 on: 08 April 2017, 14:53:24 »

It was a dramatic show of force rather than a strategic strike. Nothing more and nothing less ;)
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Mister Rog

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Re: Syria
« Reply #68 on: 08 April 2017, 16:48:11 »

It was a dramatic show of force rather than a strategic strike. Nothing more and nothing less ;)

Without the consequences of significant casualties or risk of loss of own personnel or aircraft



Question: why are they "casualties", I don't see anything casual about being killed.   ???

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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Syria
« Reply #69 on: 08 April 2017, 17:14:45 »

Presumably from the french meaning to lounge around doing nothing ::)

Actually Medieval English with it's roots in Latin...

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/casualty ;)
« Last Edit: 08 April 2017, 17:16:58 by Doctor Gollum »
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Syria
« Reply #70 on: 08 April 2017, 17:33:29 »

I can well understand the point that the US was making a point, a show of force. But is it a show of force when 59 of some of the most advanced missiles in the military world fails to completely eradicate a target?  At Jutland that is referred to in this thread Great Britain proved it could take losses in a major sea battle, proved to the opposing fleet that they stood no chance of overcoming the Royal Navy's power, and the day after the battle was still able to put to sea 28 world beating dreadnoughts.

Did the strike on the Syrian airbase destroy all the aircraft, or even any?  Were the aircraft pens reduced to rubble?  Was the airfield put out of action? I think the answer from all reports is no.

In Syria whole cities are effectively now destroyed. Thousands of people have been killed and even more displaced. An international war crime has taken place, probably one of many.  The countries infrastructure and people are badly damaged.  Can a 59 missile air strike, that seems in physical terms to have achieved little in the eyes of non-western people who have seen so much devastation, going to be impressed by such USA / Western "might"?  Russian and Syrian propaganda could rightly say to the people of Syria, and the Middle East in general, "look, this is all the mighty USA can achieve; all noise and thunder, but no substance.  The USA is just a paper tiger in the Middle East and is not as strong as they look". 

If you are a power that wants to flaunt it, you show effectiveness of purpose, like eradicate a target airfield, or mount a bombing mission that no one thinks is possible; like the initial bombing of Berlin by the RAF in 1940 or the USAF bombing of Tokyo in 1942, and of course the dropping of two atomic bombs in 1945.  That is a show of strength, and sends a message no one can mistake.  The enemy is shaken.  The US bombing of the Syrian airfield will fail to shake the enemy, especially the Russians let alone Assad who know he is backed by the former.

15 missiles, for example, causing maximum damage would have sent the "we are the power" message far more than 59 poorly targeted missiles.  It is human nature. ;)
« Last Edit: 08 April 2017, 17:35:22 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Mister Rog

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Re: Syria
« Reply #71 on: 08 April 2017, 17:35:51 »

Presumably from the french meaning to lounge around doing nothing ::)

Actually Medieval English with it's roots in Latin...

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/casualty ;)

Well, if I ever get flattened by a bus, or wiped out in a terrorist attack, I want to be mentioned as a "pretty damned seriousity" with nothing casual at all about it  ;D

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Mister Rog

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Re: Syria
« Reply #72 on: 08 April 2017, 17:39:09 »

I can well understand the point  . . . . . . . . .


Lizzie, remind me to NEVER argue or fall out with you . . . . . .

Lizzie for PM   :y
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Syria
« Reply #73 on: 08 April 2017, 18:18:40 »

I can well understand the point  . . . . . . . . .


Lizzie, remind me to NEVER argue or fall out with you . . . . . .

Lizzie for PM  :y

I wish!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Syria
« Reply #74 on: 08 April 2017, 18:29:20 »

One missile targeting Assads pool would have made an effective point, but with a very different tone.

Ok, 59 might seem like a daft number, but imagine the sight of them streaking across the night sky... enough to put the fear of God into anyone who saw them...
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