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[Rods2]

US used the right tool for the job with cruise missiles, so they did not endanger their pilots and aircraft against the Russian S300 and S400 SAM systems. The use of a MOAB would risk aircraft and also cause unnecessary civilian casualties due to the wide blast effect. It is very important that the West keep the moral high ground compared to Assad's and Putin's war crimes.

The cruise missiles only carry 1000lb warheads, so dropping 58 of them will damage not obliterate an airfield. This was the point of the exercise. If Assad uses gas again and continues with his indiscriminate barrel bombing of civilians, grain stores, bakeries and hospitals like he did again yesterday, then don't be surprised if the next batch of cruise missiles are much closer to his palace. Legally, the US would have to be at war with Assad to use decapitation, so this is unlikely. Their targeting of terrorist leaders can and is classed as legitimate self defense, but it does have its critics. This could not be used as a reason against Assad as his and Russian forces have not deliberately and directly attacked any Western forces. This is also why we quite rightly warned Syria and Russia before the airfield attack, so they could evacuate their forces.

Legitimate preemptive nuclear strikes can be used by the US for their or their allies self-defense, something that Kim Jong-un might yet find out to his cost. Obummer tried to get this option removed from US nuclear doctrine, but failed, primarily over North Korea and also for the protection of South Korea, Taiwan and Japan.

The blast effect of these MOAB's is 1 mile and would not effect civilians not engaged in airfield activities. The risk of a cruise missle going astray, especially when 59 are being used, and killing a multitude of civilians is far higher than these accurately dropped MOAB.

Is it not already too late for the USA / West to claim the moral high ground?  The USA and the western forces have stood by and watched war crime after war crime take place as thousands of women and children have been blasted by Assad's, Putin's and "rebel" forces without any retaliation.  Only discussions have taken place in that paper tiger of an institution called the United Nations. It needs the US to take decisive action with strategic attacks combined with "statements" such as in Afganistan with the MOAB action. Only then will all nations wake up and realise that the super power on the block has teeth and will take decisive action to halt what is a diplomatic disaster called the Middle East.  The Afgan attack has certainly woken up China and Northe Korea to the reality at last that the US will extend it's will over those who threaten it's interests.  Russia also now knows that "their friend Trump" will give them no favours and (we hope) is starting to dictate how things will be.

We shall see of course, and no doubt the diplomats of the worlds governments are now working hard to fathom what it all means.  It does of course mean that the UK defence systems and intelligence must be on top of their game.

If you think the CEP accuracy of a bomb, released by using a drag-chute to slide it out of a loading ramp on an MC130  is higher than for GPS / laser-gyro guided / satellite linked ordinance. Then good luck with that one.

A civilian is a civilian when it comes to propaganda, it doesn't matter if they work as a cleaner, cook, or whatever or just in the vicinity in the wrong place at the wrong time, their death will still be used to paint the West as having worse standards than the enemies.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I am going to comment on just one more thing as this nonsense over me stating a simple opinion has gone far enough.

So now we come to the nitty gritty.  You carry a grudge with me from YEARS ago; over 5 I seem to recall, by stating in your red comments against my explanation:

"Historical situations of your own making. And with each resurgence we a forced to bear witness to how you were wronged. Not always instantly, but sooner or later. The Hampshire cambelt me springs to mind. Everyone there got stuck in, and the whole weekend was agreed at the time to have been enjoyed by everyone who attended... yet sometime after the event, and in a flouncing statement, you announced how you had felt unwelcomed; and following and argument felt you should leave."

So I dare to comment over a meet over 5 years ago and now, because, as previously stated you have a weed up your arse, I receive a barrage of pent up anger that insults me and others who believe in God, offends my beliefs, blasphemes against God, Jesus, and seemingly the Holy Spirit for good measure (no pun intended! )  No matter what I say on this forum you do not want to forget or forgive me for just expressing opinions in threads of long ago.  Amazing. It says a lot about you.  Perhaps now though you have got it off your chest and can move on.

[Lizzie Zoom]

US used the right tool for the job with cruise missiles, so they did not endanger their pilots and aircraft against the Russian S300 and S400 SAM systems. The use of a MOAB would risk aircraft and also cause unnecessary civilian casualties due to the wide blast effect. It is very important that the West keep the moral high ground compared to Assad's and Putin's war crimes.

The cruise missiles only carry 1000lb warheads, so dropping 58 of them will damage not obliterate an airfield. This was the point of the exercise. If Assad uses gas again and continues with his indiscriminate barrel bombing of civilians, grain stores, bakeries and hospitals like he did again yesterday, then don't be surprised if the next batch of cruise missiles are much closer to his palace. Legally, the US would have to be at war with Assad to use decapitation, so this is unlikely. Their targeting of terrorist leaders can and is classed as legitimate self defense, but it does have its critics. This could not be used as a reason against Assad as his and Russian forces have not deliberately and directly attacked any Western forces. This is also why we quite rightly warned Syria and Russia before the airfield attack, so they could evacuate their forces.

Legitimate preemptive nuclear strikes can be used by the US for their or their allies self-defense, something that Kim Jong-un might yet find out to his cost. Obummer tried to get this option removed from US nuclear doctrine, but failed, primarily over North Korea and also for the protection of South Korea, Taiwan and Japan.

The blast effect of these MOAB's is 1 mile and would not effect civilians not engaged in airfield activities. The risk of a cruise missle going astray, especially when 59 are being used, and killing a multitude of civilians is far higher than these accurately dropped MOAB.

Is it not already too late for the USA / West to claim the moral high ground?  The USA and the western forces have stood by and watched war crime after war crime take place as thousands of women and children have been blasted by Assad's, Putin's and "rebel" forces without any retaliation.  Only discussions have taken place in that paper tiger of an institution called the United Nations. It needs the US to take decisive action with strategic attacks combined with "statements" such as in Afganistan with the MOAB action. Only then will all nations wake up and realise that the super power on the block has teeth and will take decisive action to halt what is a diplomatic disaster called the Middle East.  The Afgan attack has certainly woken up China and Northe Korea to the reality at last that the US will extend it's will over those who threaten it's interests.  Russia also now knows that "their friend Trump" will give them no favours and (we hope) is starting to dictate how things will be.

We shall see of course, and no doubt the diplomats of the worlds governments are now working hard to fathom what it all means.  It does of course mean that the UK defence systems and intelligence must be on top of their game.

If you think the CEP accuracy of a bomb, released by using a drag-chute to slide it out of a loading ramp on an MC130  is higher than for GPS / laser-gyro guided / satellite linked ordinance. Then good luck with that one.

A civilian is a civilian when it comes to propaganda, it doesn't matter if they work as a cleaner, cook, or whatever or just in the vicinity in the wrong place at the wrong time, their death will still be used to paint the West as having worse standards than the enemies.

Now back to the real subject of this thread:

You are so right on that one Rod.  It has been the case in almost, if not all, the wars of the twentieth century and is still the case now.  The propaganda made by all sides with the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17/MAS17) over the Ukrains / Russian border is a 21st century example. Now Syrian civilians are being used as the propaganda pawns around Mosul. The propaganda nowadays spreads to the internet for extra impact.  This is a good example of it:

www.iamsyria.org/death-tolls.html

So 525,000 killed, including 55,000 children, and look who they are blaming. What is THE truth though.  We shall not know, if other conflicts are a guide, until the history is researched in years to come.


Can this situation ever change whilst conflict goes on?  I doubt it. 
 

[Rods2]

Now back to the real subject of this thread:

You are so right on that one Rod.  It has been the case in almost, if not all, the wars of the twentieth century and is still the case now.  The propaganda made by all sides with the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17/MAS17) over the Ukrains / Russian border is a 21st century example. Now Syrian civilians are being used as the propaganda pawns around Mosul. The propaganda nowadays spreads to the internet for extra impact.  This is a good example of it:

www.iamsyria.org/death-tolls.html

So 525,000 killed, including 55,000 children, and look who they are blaming. What is THE truth though.  We shall not know, if other conflicts are a guide, until the history is researched in years to come.


Can this situation ever change whilst conflict goes on?  I doubt it. 

Not only propaganda but also Russian 'agitprop' or 'active measures' along with cyber-warfare. The Russians are currently by far the best in the world at this and where I follow the Russian invasion and war closely in Ukraine, I have learn't much and also to a lessor extent from Syria. The Ukrainians have been subject to the full suit of these Russian tactics. Everything from funding fridge nationalist parties, paying people to cause problems (that went badly wrong in Odessa), terrorist attacks including civilians in Kharkiv, 'wetwork' with the recent killing of a former Russian MP in Kyiv an example, not to mention cyber attacks which have shutdown a power station and sections of their national grid twice. They have also deployed a full suit of economic measures, which range from confiscating Ukrainian factories on Russian soil, to banning the import of most Ukrainian produce to literally using their 'aid white lorries' to dismantle whole factories in the Donbas and exporting them to Russia.

This is an example of their current 'active measures':

https://jamestown.org/program/russian-disinformation-pervades-central-eastern-europe/

The other side of the coin is that Russia has failed on all of their political objectives since taking Crimea, with their invasion of the Donbas and trying to break Ukraine economically and politically. Ukraine have switched to exporting much more to Europe and worldwide, so after a post-2014 sharp painful recession, their economy is now growing and the growth is accelerating.

Although their is still an active war being imposed on Ukraine by Russian with an average of one Ukrainian KIA and several WIA virtually everyday, this active engagement is far from one sided with Russia suffering (classed by them as secret) causalities as well. The Ukrainian SBU have also had their hacking successes with the Glazyev Tapes and Surkov leaks.

http://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_the_glazyev_tapes_getting_to_the_root_of_the_conflict_in_7165

https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/andreas-umland/glazyevs-tapes

Although Russia denies the authenticity of the leaks it looks like there has been a purge in the FSB as a result, in much the same way as there has after the Christopher Steele, Trump dossier (more and more of which is now being independently verified).

https://informnapalm.org/en/cyberwar-purges-in-russian-cybersecurity-could-be-connected-to-surkovleaks/

I could just keep writing on this and other current things, like Russian 'active measures' to get Trump elected. There is much good information out there but also many disinformation 'fake news' websites, which means I tend to stick to top accredited academics, with most names start with 'Professor', proven journalists and people I have got to know over time and can I verify from multiple sources that what they say is factual.

NATO countries are closely studying the war in Ukraine and Syria to learn about modern Russian tactics and capabilities. Western post-1991 complacency is learning some hard lessons, hence the US urgent upgrade program to add reactive armour to M1 Abrams tanks. I suspect there is also an emergency TOW missile upgrade program as (Saudi supplied ones) have failed to penetrate T90 armour when used by the Free Syrian Army. UK Challenger tanks and munitions are also in urgent need of upgrading if they are going to be of any use in future conflicts.

Lizzie if you want a list of good Twitter geopolitical, political, intelligence and journalist accounts worth following then let me know.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Now back to the real subject of this thread:

You are so right on that one Rod.  It has been the case in almost, if not all, the wars of the twentieth century and is still the case now.  The propaganda made by all sides with the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17/MAS17) over the Ukrains / Russian border is a 21st century example. Now Syrian civilians are being used as the propaganda pawns around Mosul. The propaganda nowadays spreads to the internet for extra impact.  This is a good example of it:

www.iamsyria.org/death-tolls.html

So 525,000 killed, including 55,000 children, and look who they are blaming. What is THE truth though.  We shall not know, if other conflicts are a guide, until the history is researched in years to come.


Can this situation ever change whilst conflict goes on?  I doubt it. 

Not only propaganda but also Russian 'agitprop' or 'active measures' along with cyber-warfare. The Russians are currently by far the best in the world at this and where I follow the Russian invasion and war closely in Ukraine, I have learn't much and also to a lessor extent from Syria. The Ukrainians have been subject to the full suit of these Russian tactics. Everything from funding fridge nationalist parties, paying people to cause problems (that went badly wrong in Odessa), terrorist attacks including civilians in Kharkiv, 'wetwork' with the recent killing of a former Russian MP in Kyiv an example, not to mention cyber attacks which have shutdown a power station and sections of their national grid twice. They have also deployed a full suit of economic measures, which range from confiscating Ukrainian factories on Russian soil, to banning the import of most Ukrainian produce to literally using their 'aid white lorries' to dismantle whole factories in the Donbas and exporting them to Russia.

This is an example of their current 'active measures':

https://jamestown.org/program/russian-disinformation-pervades-central-eastern-europe/

The other side of the coin is that Russia has failed on all of their political objectives since taking Crimea, with their invasion of the Donbas and trying to break Ukraine economically and politically. Ukraine have switched to exporting much more to Europe and worldwide, so after a post-2014 sharp painful recession, their economy is now growing and the growth is accelerating.

Although their is still an active war being imposed on Ukraine by Russian with an average of one Ukrainian KIA and several WIA virtually everyday, this active engagement is far from one sided with Russia suffering (classed by them as secret) causalities as well. The Ukrainian SBU have also had their hacking successes with the Glazyev Tapes and Surkov leaks.

http://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_the_glazyev_tapes_getting_to_the_root_of_the_conflict_in_7165

https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/andreas-umland/glazyevs-tapes

Although Russia denies the authenticity of the leaks it looks like there has been a purge in the FSB as a result, in much the same way as there has after the Christopher Steele, Trump dossier (more and more of which is now being independently verified).

https://informnapalm.org/en/cyberwar-purges-in-russian-cybersecurity-could-be-connected-to-surkovleaks/

I could just keep writing on this and other current things, like Russian 'active measures' to get Trump elected. There is much good information out there but also many disinformation 'fake news' websites, which means I tend to stick to top accredited academics, with most names start with 'Professor', proven journalists and people I have got to know over time and can I verify from multiple sources that what they say is factual.

NATO countries are closely studying the war in Ukraine and Syria to learn about modern Russian tactics and capabilities. Western post-1991 complacency is learning some hard lessons, hence the US urgent upgrade program to add reactive armour to M1 Abrams tanks. I suspect there is also an emergency TOW missile upgrade program as (Saudi supplied ones) have failed to penetrate T90 armour when used by the Free Syrian Army. UK Challenger tanks and munitions are also in urgent need of upgrading if they are going to be of any use in future conflicts.

Lizzie if you want a list of good Twitter geopolitical, political, intelligence and journalist accounts worth following then let me know.

Wow, you certainly know your field of expertise Rod.  That is one great summary

As I understand we do not build any new tanks in the UK, with Vickers losing the contract years ago, so how can the British army equip themselves with the latest British design, or even upgrade their existing ones?  Will our army have to resort to buying Abrahams in future?  For the land that invented the tank I feel it a poor show.

Thanks for the invite of further sources of info, but at the moment I will stick to reading your great reports

I will stick to European history

[Lizzie Zoom]

.........I will now go through the links you supplied, but it will take a few hours to absorb what is a very complex picture of Russian politics

[ronnyd]

Now i may be wrong here Lizzie, but, isn,t Mosul in Iraq, not Syria?

[Lizzie Zoom]

Now i may be wrong here Lizzie, but, isn,t Mosul in Iraq, not Syria?

Ah, you noticed!  Well spotted

Yes I meant to say Iraqi civilians, but by the time I noticed my mistake I ran out of time to amend

[ronnyd]

Now i may be wrong here Lizzie, but, isn,t Mosul in Iraq, not Syria?

Ah, you noticed!  Well spotted

Yes I meant to say Iraqi civilians, but by the time I noticed my mistake I ran out of time to amend

[Marks DTM Calib]

A few posts trimmed in an attempt to address some of the back stabbing and irrelevant digs

[STEMO]

A few posts trimmed in an attempt to address some of the back stabbing and irrelevant digs

What's gen disrespect without back stabbing and irrelevant digs?

[Lizzie Zoom]

A few posts trimmed in an attempt to address some of the back stabbing and irrelevant digs

What's gen disrespect without back stabbing and irrelevant digs?

Don't worry STEMO, none of our posts seem to have been "trimmed"

[Doctor Gollum]

A few posts trimmed in an attempt to address some of the back stabbing and irrelevant digs

What's gen disrespect without back stabbing and irrelevant digs?

Don't worry STEMO, none of our posts seem to have been "trimmed"

Actually, the only one missing is the one where I suggested that you went forth...

But never let the facts spoil an opportunity for a snide remark

[Doctor Gollum]

Anyways...

Syria, a shit sandwich... available with any bread you choose

[Lizzie Zoom]

A few posts trimmed in an attempt to address some of the back stabbing and irrelevant digs

t
What's gen disrespect without back stabbing and irrelevant digs?

Don't worry STEMO, none of our posts seem to have been "trimmed"

Actually, the only one missing is the one where I suggested that you went forth...

But never let the facts spoil an opportunity for a snide remark

I was actually putting a funny side onto it all as I'm moving on. I do not favour snide remarks so would not use them.  I was trying to be friendly with STEMO and it had nothing to do with you.

You have told me though something I didn't know; what had been trimmed