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[2boxerdogs]

I will keep using my petrol & diesel cars till either I or they give up the ghost, I can honestly state that I will never consider an electric vehicle.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I have a Leaf and range varies from between 60miles and 110miles INDICATED depending on the weather and how hard its been driven.  After 2.5 years we are begining to notice a drop off in the battery life.   Until they get the range from the batteries and also the life from the batteries its going to be non starter.  We are due a change of car in the next 6 months and we are dumping the leaf and going back to a small petrol. 

No doubt they suit some people (inner city with an abundance of public charge spots)  for us,  Cumbria and hardly any convient charge spots its a non starter.

The reality.

[tunnie]

Anything with a battery is shot after a few years....

Hence they do these battery rental setup instead, the Leaf offers this. But it's then a mine field for second hand buyers, are the batteries leased or part of the car?

I would have thought lease battery would be better for long term ownership, but Leaf forums suggest it's better to own them. Yet you would have a huge cost of replacing them at some point? 

Plus a Leaf is ok for nipping about town and probably my commute to be honest, however a battery powered Transit? Ones in full business use can easily rack up 1,000 miles a day....

[chrisio]

The leaf has its advantages that's for sure...  It costs buttons to charge,  local driving is brilliant (why bother use a metric tonne of petrol to nip to the shops 2 miles away)  its plenty fast enough (hit the limiter at 100mph), its great fun for scaring the old dears in the supermarket car park who don't hear it coming plus many more.

BUT...

I have NEVER got past the range worry that seems to be hard-wired into my brain,  as said the batteries are starting to flag, the lack of public charge points around my area is a nightmare (30 mile round trip to hit the local fast charge point) - The fact that in 3-5 years you are going to have to pay out for a new battery pack unless you lease them.

We thought we would be able to get across to the parents about 75miles away with range to spare and a smug look on our faces - that's never going to happen in a million years not when new and NEVER 2.5 years down the line,  we would need to break the journey up and stop at a charge point which then adds at least 20minutes to the journey....  Its easier just to jump in the petrol and drive....

[Kevin Wood]

For electric cars to become a viable replacement for petrol / diesel we need both an order of magnitude change in the storage density of batteries to cope with a day's vehicle usage in any scenario, not just a short commute, AND an infrastructure capable of generating and supplying the power. Think about the rate of energy transfer at the forecourt of a large motorway services with perhaps 30 odd fuel pumps. How on earth do you provide electrical energy at that rate? As has been said, these are both mature technologies where breakthroughs are rare.

I think petrol PHEVs will be the future for some time yet. You can then ban their use under IC power in city centres but you have a vehicle that's not a total chocolate teapot for any other use case and the grid doesn't have to support much of the energy supply.

Either that or we adopt more victorian attitudes on personal mobility (if only we still had the victorians' railway network).

[Varche]

For electric cars to become a viable replacement for petrol / diesel we need both an order of magnitude change in the storage density of batteries to cope with a day's vehicle usage in any scenario, not just a short commute, AND an infrastructure capable of generating and supplying the power. Think about the rate of energy transfer at the forecourt of a large motorway services with perhaps 30 odd fuel pumps. How on earth do you provide electrical energy at that rate? As has been said, these are both mature technologies where breakthroughs are rare.

I think petrol PHEVs will be the future for some time yet. You can then ban their use under IC power in city centres but you have a vehicle that's not a total chocolate teapot for any other use case and the grid doesn't have to support much of the energy supply.

Either that or we adopt more victorian attitudes on personal mobility (if only we still had the victorians' railway network).

Plenty of solutions. e.g.Fuel station mini power stations. Feeding surplus to the grid at a profit so that would encourage the investors. Could be a Big windmill for each station colour coded so you can see it is a recharging station from miles away as you are limping along! No charging going on?  then pump water up into a tower to generate HEP charging when needed. Remember the box when thinking.   How many petrol stations were there when cars were invented? Rhetorical question. I agree with you about the railway network. It grieves me that councils were so stupid as to sell plots on former lines for houses to be built. We are so going to need the routes one day.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Electric cars should have air ducts with mini wind turbines in them, so as you drive the turbines are generating electricity to charge the battery. 

The faster you drive the further you can go! 

[STEMO]

Electric cars should have air ducts with mini wind turbines in them, so as you drive the turbines are generating electricity to charge the battery. 

The faster you drive the further you can go! 

No. The turbines would create air resistance and, therefore, use more power driving the car forward. Stupid idea.......unless......they made a kind of jet engine whooshing noise which sounded cool, then they'd be a good idea. 

[Kevin Wood]

Well, I think the future is in small, very efficient aircraft that can stay aloft using invisible energy present in the atmosphere.

Oh, hang on...

[steve6367]

We are off to France for some long distance in the Leaf Saturday. When we got them I thought we would use the Omega's for long trips but we just don't in reality. Rapid charging is fast, easy and fits with my bladder and coffee requirements :-)

[Viral_Jim]

Oh and when they use it it's going to release noxious chemicals onto the atmosphere. Check - where are 'dead' batteries going to go, and where is the electricity to charge them from coming from?

This is one of the oldest, tiredest and most incorrect fossil fuel vs battery arguments in the book. When a battery is dead, you recycle it, and make another. You argue that lithium is difficult to mine/obtain and then claim dead batteries which contain loads of it will be just thrown away? Bizarre. This is another false equivalence that people trot out when talking about electric cars. How do you equate digging up a material that can be used again and again to one which is dug up, burned and then takes millions of years to reform? It makes no sense.

Also the electrical generation argument is partially valid, but it makes the assumptions that a) we don't grow our use of renewables and b) that petrol is brought to the pumps by the petrol fairies. The co2 release and environmental impact of oil drilling and refining needs to be considered if you are going to consider the environmental impact of the source of the electricity generated. Otherwise the comparison is at best skewed or, more accurately invalid.

Smoke and mirrors. A politician announces a policy that's coming into effect 23 years in the future and we believe them?

Not in the slightest. I don't believe most things politicos have to say. What I do firmly believe is that digging stuff up and setting fire to it is not a model which can continue indefinitely.

[Viral_Jim]

and the car you drop off is unusable for up to 8 hours whilst it recharges, and is cleaned of all the pi55 and puke stains the previous occupant left.

Well, even using the settled technology (which demonstrably isn't settled) tesla can already charge a car to 80% in 40mins and 100% in 75mins. Do you bother to research any of this, or just post the first number/"fact" that comes to mind? 

[steve6367]

I have a Leaf and range varies from between 60miles and 110miles INDICATED depending on the weather and how hard its been driven.  After 2.5 years we are begining to notice a drop off in the battery life.   Until they get the range from the batteries and also the life from the batteries its going to be non starter.  We are due a change of car in the next 6 months and we are dumping the leaf and going back to a small petrol. 

No doubt they suit some people (inner city with an abundance of public charge spots)  for us,  Cumbria and hardly any convient charge spots its a non starter.

The reality.

One reality maybe, we have a 2013 and 2017 here. The 2013 is at 49K miles and still has all 12 battery health bars (96% battery health in Leaf Spy). C&C taxis in Cornwall have one with 100K and still all 12 battery health bars.

A quote from C&C "It doesn't matter if it has 10% or 70% battery left if there's 10 minutes between jobs they'll jump on the Rapid charger. That car in the picture has had 1750 rapid charges and over 7000 level 2 charges." so it has not been treated in any special way.

[TheBoy]

and the car you drop off is unusable for up to 8 hours whilst it recharges, and is cleaned of all the pi55 and puke stains the previous occupant left.

Well, even using the settled technology (which demonstrably isn't settled) tesla can already charge a car to 80% in 40mins and 100% in 75mins. Do you bother to research any of this, or just post the first number/"fact" that comes to mind? 

When I looked at the viability of an electric car, using leased batteries, you got properly buttraped for regular fast charging, as understandably, this knackers the packs.


Also, Tesla keep getting mentioned. Everyone I know with one is getting around 120m to a full charge...  ...driven sedately . UK traffic hammers the range on these things.


We frequently get the EV manufacturers in at work, showing off their wares.  Every single one of their salesmen, including Tesla when pushed, state their cars are not suitable for me.

[Viral_Jim]

Nissan also had a serious kicking over battery health a few years ago and changed their warranties and some of the charging control systems and software to improve consumer confidence and battery health respectively.

Today's reality is that you can buy a brand new Hyundai Ioniq for under £25k with a good spec (heated seats, adaptive cruise, nav, dab etc). That comes with a 5yr unlimited mileage warranty (limited to 125k on the battery). Even if it went bang at 125,001 miles and you got no support from hyundai (unlikely) you will have saved £12,000 over a car that does 50mpg average. To spec a similar level and size of car (Insignia say) would take you comfortably up to £18-20k.

This is before you consider the savings on consumables (the 200k tesla mentioned above is still on its original discs and pads due to regenerative brakind) and servicing (Ioniq servicing is £99/£139 for the alternating minor and major services). Plus, of course diesels never kill clutches, dmfs or injectors, nope, never

TB: I'm by no means saying they suit everyone, but a fair percentage of the population *think* it wouldn't suit them, partly because of tired and inaccurate arguments that people copy and paste without being challenged.

The fast charging penalty on leased batteries is really odd and something i dont really understand, it does make it much less viable for a lot of people :/.