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Author Topic: Prius – The Big Con  (Read 5718 times)

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Markjay

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Prius – The Big Con
« on: 16 January 2007, 23:11:55 »

Friends of ours just bought a brand new top-of-the-range Toyota Prius. The car is full of computers and technology, and not just for controlling the engine(s) and drive train – the car actually parks itself in reverse… not to mention other clever items such as rear-view camera.

They paid for it in excess of £20k, and bought it because it is ‘green’. Well, the point is that it isn’t, actually.

Yes it may have lower emissions. But – and this is a big but – it is far too sophisticated to survive for very long. With all these complex technology it is definitely not DIY, and I doubt if an independent garage would touch this hybrid car with a barge pole – I understand that Toyota needed to provide specialised training to their dealer network mechanics.

And with the main Toyota dealer in north London charging £95 per hour (which is one reason why I don’t take my other-half’s old Previa there anymore), which future owner will pay a four-figure bill to have it fixed it when it goes wrong in 5 or 10 years time?

The coup-de-grace is the battery packs. Apparently these need to be replaced every 5 years or so, and the cost they were quoted was ‘between £2,000 and £4,000’. I guarantee you that no Prius will survive into a second battery pack replacement – it might get its battery packs replaced once at 5 years, but when the car is 10 years old no-one will pay this much to keep it on the road.

I may of course be totally wrong, and the Prius will prove so popular that there will be a huge supply of pattern parts and cheap after-market battery packs (assuming Toyota forgot to patent them – unlikely in the first place), and lots of back-street garages staffed by helpful ex-Toyota mechanics will fix them on the cheap. But somehow I just don’t see it…

No, Prius cars will not survive very long… they will be off the road much sooner than your run-of-the-mill Ford Escort or Vauxhall Cavalier, which in contrast are simple cars to maintain and cheap to run.

The only bit of good news is that these cars will probably not go into landfills, instead they will be disposed of by the manufacturer in an ‘environmentally friendly way’ (in line with new European directive). Still, not all parts can be recycled, and at any rate any car off the road means another one being manufactured at a huge cost to the environment.

Instead of giving us new cars that pollute less but need to be replaced with new ones, help us keep our existing cars going… don’t make us scrap them and buy new ones, make them last longer. The amount of pollution created by the manufacturing process of a new car is sometimes difficult to appreciate. The ores need to be mined, then transported to the factories, then the metal need to be processed… not to mention the amount of rubber and plastics that go into a new car, all of which rely on chemical processes involving some very dangerous substances.

For me, an environmentally-friendly car is one that you can run for 20 years and then sell on, not one that smokes a bit less but need to be scrapped after less than half that time.

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Chopsdad

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Re: Prius – The Big Con
« Reply #1 on: 16 January 2007, 23:16:57 »

My old boss bought one last year - swapped it from a Lexus GS300  :o

I found him skulking off to the far corner of the car park after a meeting - ugly, bland car with no cred  :(

Can't see him keeping it to the first change of batteries let alone the second.
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Markjay

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Re: Prius – The Big Con
« Reply #2 on: 16 January 2007, 23:24:38 »

Quote
My old boss bought one last year - swapped it from a Lexus GS300  :o

I found him skulking off to the far corner of the car park after a meeting - ugly, bland car with no cred  :(

Can't see him keeping it to the first change of batteries let alone the second.


They are very common now around London due to the fact that they are exempt from Congestion Charge. But I still think it makes no sense because the Prius costs around £5k more than a comparable ‘standard’, so unless you drive into London every day (which very few people do anyway because of the cost of parking…) and the charge is upped to £25, it will take several years to recoup the extra cost…
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tunnie

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Re: Prius – The Big Con
« Reply #3 on: 16 January 2007, 23:24:43 »

and another thing they are not green!!!

They get less mpg than a diesel, pointless cars IMO. Any money saved on petrol is lost in dealer services.

Not well built either...
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Chopsdad

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Re: Prius – The Big Con
« Reply #4 on: 16 January 2007, 23:28:25 »

Quote
and another thing they are not green!!!

They get less mpg than a diesel, pointless cars IMO. Any money saved on petrol is lost in dealer services.

Not well built either...

Shouldn't they all be green - cos you don't buy them for style anyway so why not make a statement  ;)
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Nickbat

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Re: Prius – The Big Con
« Reply #5 on: 16 January 2007, 23:36:19 »

You're spot on in your criticism of these ridiculous vehicles. The problem is that the people who buy them (no disrespect to your friends) seem to get sucked in by the hype from the Save the Planet brigade. I'm all for saving resources and recycyling, but cannot abide this drivel about hybrid vehicles being eco-friendly. They're not, for all the reasons you gave.

As an adjunct to this green hype issue, I've been following a thread elsewhere about a council decision to cut down on electric street lighting for "green" reasons. Now it's OK to switch lights off to save money or to reduce light pollution, can't argue with that, but you're doing diddly squat about reducing energy consumption since power stations cannot reduce their overnight output (and thus emissions) - they just earth the excess. Hence the old "Switch to Economy 7" drive back in the seventies...Mmm, I've still got that - half-price leccy, that's nice!! :y.
    
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Re: Prius – The Big Con
« Reply #6 on: 17 January 2007, 08:40:32 »

Quote
You're spot on in your criticism of these ridiculous vehicles. The problem is that the people who buy them (no disrespect to your friends) seem to get sucked in by the hype from the Save the Planet brigade. I'm all for saving resources and recycyling, but cannot abide this drivel about hybrid vehicles being eco-friendly. They're not, for all the reasons you gave.

As an adjunct to this green hype issue, I've been following a thread elsewhere about a council decision to cut down on electric street lighting for "green" reasons. Now it's OK to switch lights off to save money or to reduce light pollution, can't argue with that, but you're doing diddly squat about reducing energy consumption since power stations cannot reduce their overnight output (and thus emissions) - they just earth the excess. Hence the old "Switch to Economy 7" drive back in the seventies...Mmm, I've still got that - half-price leccy, that's nice!! :y.
    

They'll be banning smoking in public places next...... ::)
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supermop

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Re: Prius – The Big Con
« Reply #7 on: 17 January 2007, 09:26:33 »

Sounds like a rather large scale con :o

Clarkson tested the Prius, and found it to have less MPG than an average diesel. So its an even bigger con.
« Last Edit: 17 January 2007, 09:27:21 by supermop »
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miked

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Re: Prius – The Big Con
« Reply #8 on: 17 January 2007, 09:52:23 »

Quote
As an adjunct to this green hype issue, I've been following a thread elsewhere about a council decision to cut down on electric street lighting for "green" reasons. Now it's OK to switch lights off to save money or to reduce light pollution, can't argue with that, but you're doing diddly squat about reducing energy consumption since power stations cannot reduce their overnight output (and thus emissions) - they just earth the excess. Hence the old "Switch to Economy 7" drive back in the seventies...Mmm, I've still got that - half-price leccy, that's nice!! :y.

Not true I'm afraid :-

The nuclear stations are not flexible.  They are best suited to base loading at their maximum rating, which is what they do.

Gas stations are not particularly flexible when on load, they are also designed to mainly operate within a narrow load profile.  They can however, two shift very easily.  Two shifting basically means coming off load through the night and back on through the day.  They can be shutdown and started up fairly quickly.

Coal (and oil) stations are much more flexible and are able to provide good frequency response, continually varying their output to meet the requirements of the grid and to help keep the grid at 50Hz.  These stations also two shift very successfully and do this based on system prices / demand.  

Electricity is not easily stored, which is why there is the national grid and all these stations feeding it.  As demand rises of falls, outputs from generating units connected to the grid and providing frequency response rapidly alter their output to ensure that the system frequency remains steady.

No electricity is 'earthed' or wasted.

As for renewables, yes they have their part to play in a balanced portfolio of generation, but they are by no means the answer to our electricity requirements in the near future (50+ years).  

The save the planet brigade have very honourable intentions but need to grasp a much better understanding of the issues before invading large coal fired power stations trying to close them down.  Demand is only going to go up.
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Ken T

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Re: Prius [ch8211] The Big Con
« Reply #9 on: 17 January 2007, 12:28:23 »

that would suggest it would make sense to use electric cars that can charge up at night, not these hybrid flops. Here's one that might look OK in the Company carpark  http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/04/technology/business2_wrightspeed/ But would it keep up with Tunnie's Sennator?. :)
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Martin_1962

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Re: Prius – The Big Con
« Reply #10 on: 17 January 2007, 12:32:25 »

In Scotland they cab store power in pumped hydro electric stations
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Nickbat

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Re: Prius – The Big Con
« Reply #11 on: 17 January 2007, 12:47:43 »

Quote
Quote
As an adjunct to this green hype issue, I've been following a thread elsewhere about a council decision to cut down on electric street lighting for "green" reasons. Now it's OK to switch lights off to save money or to reduce light pollution, can't argue with that, but you're doing diddly squat about reducing energy consumption since power stations cannot reduce their overnight output (and thus emissions) - they just earth the excess. Hence the old "Switch to Economy 7" drive back in the seventies...Mmm, I've still got that - half-price leccy, that's nice!! :y.

Not true I'm afraid :-

The nuclear stations are not flexible.  They are best suited to base loading at their maximum rating, which is what they do.

Gas stations are not particularly flexible when on load, they are also designed to mainly operate within a narrow load profile.  They can however, two shift very easily.  Two shifting basically means coming off load through the night and back on through the day.  They can be shutdown and started up fairly quickly.

Coal (and oil) stations are much more flexible and are able to provide good frequency response, continually varying their output to meet the requirements of the grid and to help keep the grid at 50Hz.  These stations also two shift very successfully and do this based on system prices / demand.  

Electricity is not easily stored, which is why there is the national grid and all these stations feeding it.  As demand rises of falls, outputs from generating units connected to the grid and providing frequency response rapidly alter their output to ensure that the system frequency remains steady.

No electricity is 'earthed' or wasted.

As for renewables, yes they have their part to play in a balanced portfolio of generation, but they are by no means the answer to our electricity requirements in the near future (50+ years).  

The save the planet brigade have very honourable intentions but need to grasp a much better understanding of the issues before invading large coal fired power stations trying to close them down.  Demand is only going to go up.
You clearly have a good knowledge of this subject, which I respect.

However, I think you may be missing my point a bit. As I understand it, while coal station technology has improved greatly, they nevertheless take a long time to get up and running and are thus usually used to provide base loads. Of course, ouput these days can be managed to some extent (although I have read that it is a notoriously difficult operation for grid managers who use coal and nuclear as base providers and then try to top up when required by using gas and oil-fired supplies which are much quicker to respond). Nevertheless, whilst output may be more controllable, the energy input, certainly with regard to coal, is pretty much fixed to the target base load requirement. Thus, the amount of fossil fuel burned will remain pretty much stable 24 hours a day. By extrapolation, switching off a row of street lights will not, if the supply is from a purely base load source, have any effect on the power station emissions, which was the point I was making.

I understand that these days less energy is wasted because of the international grid, but I'd bet there may be times when overall base load supply exceeds consumption throughout Europe and it would be nigh on impossible to sell the excess. Indeed, while looking at Economy 7 (which is still be marketed, I notice) and storage heaters, I found this quote: "However, if a country's existing power distribution is such that base load supply exceeds demand during the off-peak period, then the storage heaters there are simply making use of energy that would otherwise be wasted."

However, as I said, you clearly are better versed on this subject, and I may be wrong in my assertions. Interesting thread, though! ;)  

As far as the save the planet brigade having honourable intentions, I wish that were universally true. It seems that genuine environmental concerns are being used as a smokescreen for anti-capitalists and otheres with poitical motivations. This is a shame as we all need, as you rightly point out, to aim for better understanding of the real issues.

    
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Nickbat

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Re: Prius – The Big Con
« Reply #12 on: 17 January 2007, 12:58:32 »

Quote
that would suggest it would make sense to use electric cars that can charge up at night, not these hybrid flops. Here's one that might look OK in the Company carpark  http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/04/technology/business2_wrightspeed/ But would it keep up with Tunnie's Sennator?. :)

Electric cars are certainly one way forward and this is the first that looks, err, well, a bit sexy for want of another adjective. (Most of the others look like a Mr Man prop!). The only problem is the battery - expensive and enviromentally costly to make - and the same to dispose of at the end of its life. Still, with the current pace of technology, I'm sure super-efficient and cleaner batteries will appear in the next half a dozen years, or so.
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miked

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Re: Prius – The Big Con
« Reply #13 on: 17 January 2007, 14:25:20 »

Quote
You clearly have a good knowledge of this subject, which I respect.
Its what I do for a living so I have some strong opinions on the subject ;)

Quote
In Scotland they cab store power in pumped hydro electric stations
Very true, some in Wales as well.  Energy stored in these facilities can be converted very quickly to electricity if required.  Still require electricity to pump the water back up though ;)

Quote
Electric cars are certainly one way forward and this is the first that looks, err, well, a bit sexy for want of another adjective. (Most of the others look like a Mr Man prop!). The only problem is the battery - expensive and environmentally costly to make - and the same to dispose of at the end of its life. Still, with the current pace of technology, I'm sure super-efficient and cleaner batteries will appear in the next half a dozen years, or so.
My fundamental issue with electric vehicles, they still need charging which still requires electricity generation which still involves the use of nuclear of fossil fuels.

Quote
However, I think you may be missing my point a bit. As I understand it, while coal station technology has improved greatly, they nevertheless take a long time to get up and running and are thus usually used to provide base loads.
The newest station is Drax (coal fired) and that was built in the late eighties (twenty years ago).  Most are more like fourth or fifty years old.  Generators have strived to improve thermal efficiencies of their stations and some work has been carried out in this area (nothing dramatic however).  The other area of focus for coal stations is in emissions and there have been dramatic improvements in this area.

Coal fired units can be brought on load within an hour which is actually very fast.  Nuclear units take longer (3 days).  Most coal stations provide frequency response as well as base loading.  In fact, the majority of the frequency sensitive units connected to the grid are coal fired.  Running regimes differ between generators, some have long term agreements in place and may well base load. Others take advantage in the fluctuations in the wholesale electricity price and largely two shift their units.  The message is that coal is flexible.

Quote
Nevertheless, whilst output may be more controllable, the energy input, certainly with regard to coal, is pretty much fixed to the target base load requirement. Thus, the amount of fossil fuel burned will remain pretty much stable 24 hours a day. By extrapolation, switching off a row of street lights will not, if the supply is from a purely base load source, have any effect on the power station emissions, which was the point I was making.
Less demand means less generation, fossil, nuclear or renewable.  Nuclear is used to base load and is not frequency sensitive, so in reality it would result in a reduction in generation from the coal/gas fleet.


Quote
I understand that these days less energy is wasted because of the international grid, but I'd bet there may be times when overall base load supply exceeds consumption throughout Europe and it would be nigh on impossible to sell the excess. Indeed, while looking at Economy 7 (which is still be marketed, I notice) and storage heaters, I found this quote: "However, if a country's existing power distribution is such that base load supply exceeds demand during the off-peak period, then the storage heaters there are simply making use of energy that would otherwise be wasted."
In terms of the UK, we manage the frequency of our grid, we act literally as an 'Island' and we are not influenced by the European grid.


Interesting article can be found at http://www.parliament.uk/post/pn163.pdf (its a little old but still relevant)

The majority of the European generation is in fact Nuclear.  Their grid is considerably larger than ours and control of their distribution is across countries and is therefore more complex.

As for Economy 7,  market forces apply.  Less demand during the night time period results in a drop in wholesale electricity prices which is where the Economy 7 bit comes in.  Its for this very reason that the Nuclear generators really suffered when the government introduced a different way of trading electricity some years back.  The drop in wholesale prices was so dramatic that through night times and weekends, it cost the Nuclear generators more to generate it than they could sell it for, and because they are in-flexible they had to ride it out.  Its why the government had to step in respect to the Nuclear generators.

Quote
Interesting thread, though! ;)  
It is an interesting topic and the challenges facing this country within the next 10 to 15 years with respect to our electricity supply are not insignificant.  In my view, Nuclear and clean coal technologies are the only answer.


« Last Edit: 17 January 2007, 17:12:46 by miked »
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Martin_1962

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Re: Prius – The Big Con
« Reply #14 on: 17 January 2007, 15:06:55 »

I upset a few people as I am pro nuclear, there is a LOT of scaremongering going on but I feel it is pretty green and clean compared to fossil fuel.

I do NOT want a Severn Barrage - the damage it would cause would be huge.

I think there is too much reliance on gas it is good for fill in but I don't think it is supply safe for base power. (We are learning new terms!!)

You see weirs on rivers - how much power could be harvested there?

Wind farms I think are more gimmicky.

What is happening with fusion research
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