Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[crazyjoetavola]

It is true that the Chief Constables of  police forces are under the direction of the Home Office, with a percentage of funding originating from this source, but with the majority coming from the local Police Authority.

The Home Office / |Secretary cannot dictate to their Chief Constables who should be arrested and prosecuted, as that is left to them under the direction of statutory law. The average PC on the beat just gets on and deals with crime as it transpires, and operates completely under the requirements of the law.  Yes, they are affected by the budgets applied at high levels, in so far as the number of officers on duty at any given time, but the law is independant of day to day politics and is allowed to function within its legal brief.

The Crown Prosecution Service is also operating independantly, and certainly does assess the possibility of prosecution based on the evidence provided by the police officers, the durability of such a prosecution, whether the case is legally sound, and, yes, of course, is it in the public interest, or rather is it cost effective with the possible outcome justifying the investment made in terms of resources used throughout.

In short, you do have political influence at high levels of the police service i.e. ACPO in certain aspects of their duties, but from assistant chief constable down this diffuses until at PC level politics does not come in to their direct operational life.  The latter do what they have to do to enforce the law.  The CPS are something else, but are distant from direct political control.

 

.....and there it is Ms Zoom that dreaded 'B' word.  Chief Constables are left in no doubt that their budget allocation rests in not only how they deploy their resources, but how effective they are seen to be in using it to discharge their obligation to provide a policing service.

The blunt tool used by the legislature to ensure that this happens is that of the quota - what better way to illustrate to those interested, that government policy was being successful.

Having been of the beast Ms Zoom, let me assure you that the concerns of chief officers, regarding this very problem, are indeed passed down and ultimately have certain influence in how the police conduct their business on the ground.

With the cost of legal action now as it is, the CPS is also required to adhere to this system of quotas, and that will always have some bearing on their day to day view of just what case should prosecuted.

The chief officers of either concern cannot afford those at the coal face behaving precisely as they wish as ultimately, the workers are not the ones to be answerable to the political elite, the chief officers are and that fact, is the one dictating the independence or otherwise of our system of justice.   

I know where you are coming from on this one Zulu, and I know in Kent the Chief Constable, as indeed elsewhere no doubt, is very conscious of the requirement to satisfy his political masters and justify how he spends his budget.  The ACC's I have spoken to however reitterate that, at least in Kent, the politics of their situation is kept at CC level, with them tasked in key operational matters.  At the front line the PC's I have been on patrol with have never engaged in specific actions to satisfy 'targets', nor have any Sgt. briefings ever emphasied this aspect.  The troops at the sharp end patrol and engage as crimes dictate, apart from investigating alleged incidents.  As I stated before however, the number of officers on the beat is dictated by budget targets which does certainly affect their efficiency, a point the ACC's admit to.  In addition of course there are incidents like the Kent Kingsnorth power station affair, when it was politically prudent for the CC to direct his forces resources very heavily in the business of controlling mass protests, which actually encouraged significant anti-police feeling in the media!

In my opinion the police can never win, but just try and satisfy the requirements of justice, the people, and, yes, the political masters who will criticise no matter what the police do!

....if you forgive my temerity Ms Zoom - 'never knowingly engaged in' might have been a more reasonable choice.  The quota will have been implemented by the lower management rank (inspector and section sergeant) in such a way that the beat and patrol officer performs the task almost by default, believing that their actions - in the round - bear no relation to the bigger concern of implementing government policy.

On the second point you are quite correct; a police officers lot is not, and ever was, a happy one - (and many bear the physical and emotional trauma to illustrate it)

[Del Boy]

ok, for the four guys on here who openly admit to voting for the BNP -  can I ask why?

What was it about their politics that attracts you, what policies do they have that makes you feel that they are the right party to run the country?

What area's of society will benefit by having them in power, and who will (in your eyes, justifiably) suffer as a result?

I have many reasons why I voted for the BNP but my main one is I am sick of this countries open border policy and I haven't heard anything from the major parties about it to make me want to vote for them.
Oh and before anyone suggests I am racist, my son in law is black and I have a lovely 9 month old grandson who is mixed race.

Exactly Pete! And Vmax mate you are spot on, White people in this country have less rights if everyone were to be totally honest. If you call someone a paki(abbreviation for a pakistani which is racist apparently but if we're called Brits and say thats racist thats fine!) you get done for racism, now my son was called white trash by someone from an ethnic group, now when he punched the boy he was in the wrong apparently and was put in a cell for ABH I mean he gave the boy a bloody nose! The boy from the ethnic group got away scott free for this, and would you say calling someone white trash would provoke them? The BNP lets face it are more for the thourogh bread British people but this makes them racist how does that work they are standing up for what they believe in, which is this country should be with people of British origin etc!
I can't say what I want to on a public forum to be honest, and before you say it no i'm not racist at all I have a few friends which are black etc was actually round one of there houses the other week for a BBQ.

Sorry LSG, no matter what arguments for or against the BNP you make, that sentence of yours does not mean much.  Hitler had many great Jewish friends when he was studying art in Vienna.........................

Yeah but being in support of the BNP does not make you racist, i'm British and agree with the Bnp's views doesn't make me a racist if I were racist I wouldn't talk to them at all would I as I could not stand them ?  If a muslim agree's with something that is against white people does that make them racist no it doesn't.

[yatesDELTA]

Exactly what i was thinking really, seems hardly fair

I thought free speech was allowed in the UK, even if you are a racist P****. No one pelts the Muslim extremists with eggs when they are stood on the streets spouting racist bile??

[Alex Wood]

The free speech argument is always the first to crop up in these situations and it goes to the heart of what the BNP is. Hitler used the democratic system to gain a big enough platform to- guess what- destroy democracy. He also said that only one thing could have stopped his movement: if people had organised themselves and smashed it before it had a chance to grow. Once the BNP is more established in its public support it won't be about elections, it'll be about gangs of thugs on the streets, racist murders etc. This is the difference between the BNP and all other parties. Free speech for Nazis means the denial of free speech to everyone else, and not just on the basis of colour either: anybody belong to a trade union? The nazis would have rounded you up as well.

At the moment the BNP is being quite tentative and coming over as fairly respectable, but watch them when things get more desperate and they feel more confident about hitting the streets.

It's understandable that people want a protest vote but the people who threw the eggs did us all a big favour by highlighting the fact that one protest vote could open the door to something much more dangerous.

The Nazis were different in that they organised the mass extermination of millions of Jews and millions of others who opposed them on an industrial scale, and the conditions that brought them to power, like economic depression and a complete lack of direction amongst the main political parties, could easily come back.

That's why they're more dangerous than the muslim extremists who carry placards calling for the "beheading" of those who oppose Islam. Having said that, my view is that the Islamists who turn up on protests advocating murder should be locked up and if they're not UK citizens they should be deported to their country of origin.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

The free speech argument is always the first to crop up in these situations and it goes to the heart of what the BNP is. Hitler used the democratic system to gain a big enough platform to- guess what- destroy democracy. He also said that only one thing could have stopped his movement: if people had organised themselves and smashed it before it had a chance to grow. Once the BNP is more established in its public support it won't be about elections, it'll be about gangs of thugs on the streets, racist murders etc. This is the difference between the BNP and all other parties. Free speech for Nazis means the denial of free speech to everyone else, and not just on the basis of colour either: anybody belong to a trade union? The nazis would have rounded you up as well.

At the moment the BNP is being quite tentative and coming over as fairly respectable, but watch them when things get more desperate and they feel more confident about hitting the streets.

It's understandable that people want a protest vote but the people who threw the eggs did us all a big favour by highlighting the fact that one protest vote could open the door to something much more dangerous.

The Nazis were different in that they organised the mass extermination of millions of Jews and millions of others who opposed them on an industrial scale, and the conditions that brought them to power, like economic depression and a complete lack of direction amongst the main political parties, could easily come back.

That's why they're more dangerous than the muslim extremists who carry placards calling for the "beheading" of those who oppose Islam. Having said that, my view is that the Islamists who turn up on protests advocating murder should be locked up and if they're not UK citizens they should be deported to their country of origin.

Very much agree Alex!!

EDIT :  Apart from the egg throwing bit that is as I have already adequatly expressed in this thread!!

[Nickbat]

The free speech argument is always the first to crop up in these situations and it goes to the heart of what the BNP is. Hitler used the democratic system to gain a big enough platform to- guess what- destroy democracy. He also said that only one thing could have stopped his movement: if people had organised themselves and smashed it before it had a chance to grow. Once the BNP is more established in its public support it won't be about elections, it'll be about gangs of thugs on the streets, racist murders etc. This is the difference between the BNP and all other parties. Free speech for Nazis means the denial of free speech to everyone else, and not just on the basis of colour either: anybody belong to a trade union? The nazis would have rounded you up as well.

At the moment the BNP is being quite tentative and coming over as fairly respectable, but watch them when things get more desperate and they feel more confident about hitting the streets.

It's understandable that people want a protest vote but the people who threw the eggs did us all a big favour by highlighting the fact that one protest vote could open the door to something much more dangerous.

The Nazis were different in that they organised the mass extermination of millions of Jews and millions of others who opposed them on an industrial scale, and the conditions that brought them to power, like economic depression and a complete lack of direction amongst the main political parties, could easily come back.

That's why they're more dangerous than the muslim extremists who carry placards calling for the "beheading" of those who oppose Islam. Having said that, my view is that the Islamists who turn up on protests advocating murder should be locked up and if they're not UK citizens they should be deported to their country of origin.

No they didn't!! They showed how mobs can shut down political discourse. The anti-fascists are as extreme as the fascists. they did no one a favour except drag the whole BNP thing back on the agenda. indeed, this thread only started because of the incident. If it hadn't happened, the BNP would not still be on the minds of so many. 

[yatesDELTA]

Of course all of this is under the assumption that the BNP are more than what they claim to be, which may not be true.
Unfortunatly the only way to find out would be to give them power, something i hope never happens.
At the end of the day the people who have a responsibility to deal with the BNPs raise in popularity are those in the big parties as it is them who could influence voters against the BNP. People throwing eggs will just create a bigger split in the longrun.

The free speech argument is always the first to crop up in these situations and it goes to the heart of what the BNP is. Hitler used the democratic system to gain a big enough platform to- guess what- destroy democracy. He also said that only one thing could have stopped his movement: if people had organised themselves and smashed it before it had a chance to grow. Once the BNP is more established in its public support it won't be about elections, it'll be about gangs of thugs on the streets, racist murders etc. This is the difference between the BNP and all other parties. Free speech for Nazis means the denial of free speech to everyone else, and not just on the basis of colour either: anybody belong to a trade union? The nazis would have rounded you up as well.

At the moment the BNP is being quite tentative and coming over as fairly respectable, but watch them when things get more desperate and they feel more confident about hitting the streets.

It's understandable that people want a protest vote but the people who threw the eggs did us all a big favour by highlighting the fact that one protest vote could open the door to something much more dangerous.

The Nazis were different in that they organised the mass extermination of millions of Jews and millions of others who opposed them on an industrial scale, and the conditions that brought them to power, like economic depression and a complete lack of direction amongst the main political parties, could easily come back.

That's why they're more dangerous than the muslim extremists who carry placards calling for the "beheading" of those who oppose Islam. Having said that, my view is that the Islamists who turn up on protests advocating murder should be locked up and if they're not UK citizens they should be deported to their country of origin.

[webby23]

ok, for the four guys on here who openly admit to voting for the BNP -  can I ask why?

What was it about their politics that attracts you, what policies do they have that makes you feel that they are the right party to run the country?

What area's of society will benefit by having them in power, and who will (in your eyes, justifiably) suffer as a result?

I have many reasons why I voted for the BNP but my main one is I am sick of this countries open border policy and I haven't heard anything from the major parties about it to make me want to vote for them.
Oh and before anyone suggests I am racist, my son in law is black and I have a lovely 9 month old grandson who is mixed race.

Exactly Pete! And Vmax mate you are spot on, White people in this country have less rights if everyone were to be totally honest. If you call someone a paki(abbreviation for a pakistani which is racist apparently but if we're called Brits and say thats racist thats fine!) you get done for racism, now my son was called white trash by someone from an ethnic group, now when he punched the boy he was in the wrong apparently and was put in a cell for ABH I mean he gave the boy a bloody nose! The boy from the ethnic group got away scott free for this, and would you say calling someone white trash would provoke them? The BNP lets face it are more for the thourogh bread British people but this makes them racist how does that work they are standing up for what they believe in, which is this country should be with people of British origin etc!
I can't say what I want to on a public forum to be honest, and before you say it no i'm not racist at all I have a few friends which are black etc was actually round one of there houses the other week for a BBQ.

Sorry LSG, no matter what arguments for or against the BNP you make, that sentence of yours does not mean much.  Hitler had many great Jewish friends when he was studying art in Vienna.........................

Yeah but being in support of the BNP does not make you racist, i'm British and agree with the Bnp's views doesn't make me a racist if I were racist I wouldn't talk to them at all would I as I could not stand them ?  If a muslim agree's with something that is against white people does that make them racist no it doesn't.

Well said LSG, and I dont feel I should justify my reasons for voting BNP to people who obviously have closed minds........

As for Auschwitz Lizzie, dont even get me started.......

[Lizzie_Zoom]

ok, for the four guys on here who openly admit to voting for the BNP -  can I ask why?

What was it about their politics that attracts you, what policies do they have that makes you feel that they are the right party to run the country?

What area's of society will benefit by having them in power, and who will (in your eyes, justifiably) suffer as a result?

I have many reasons why I voted for the BNP but my main one is I am sick of this countries open border policy and I haven't heard anything from the major parties about it to make me want to vote for them.
Oh and before anyone suggests I am racist, my son in law is black and I have a lovely 9 month old grandson who is mixed race.

Exactly Pete! And Vmax mate you are spot on, White people in this country have less rights if everyone were to be totally honest. If you call someone a paki(abbreviation for a pakistani which is racist apparently but if we're called Brits and say thats racist thats fine!) you get done for racism, now my son was called white trash by someone from an ethnic group, now when he punched the boy he was in the wrong apparently and was put in a cell for ABH I mean he gave the boy a bloody nose! The boy from the ethnic group got away scott free for this, and would you say calling someone white trash would provoke them? The BNP lets face it are more for the thourogh bread British people but this makes them racist how does that work they are standing up for what they believe in, which is this country should be with people of British origin etc!
I can't say what I want to on a public forum to be honest, and before you say it no i'm not racist at all I have a few friends which are black etc was actually round one of there houses the other week for a BBQ.

Sorry LSG, no matter what arguments for or against the BNP you make, that sentence of yours does not mean much.  Hitler had many great Jewish friends when he was studying art in Vienna.........................

Yeah but being in support of the BNP does not make you racist, i'm British and agree with the Bnp's views doesn't make me a racist if I were racist I wouldn't talk to them at all would I as I could not stand them ?  If a muslim agree's with something that is against white people does that make them racist no it doesn't.

Well said LSG, and I dont feel I should justify my reasons for voting BNP to people who obviously have closed minds........

As for Auschwitz Lizzie, dont even get me started.......

Nor me Webby as that discussion could last hours I reckon!

[cem_devecioglu]

The free speech argument is always the first to crop up in these situations and it goes to the heart of what the BNP is. Hitler used the democratic system to gain a big enough platform to- guess what- destroy democracy. He also said that only one thing could have stopped his movement: if people had organised themselves and smashed it before it had a chance to grow. Once the BNP is more established in its public support it won't be about elections, it'll be about gangs of thugs on the streets, racist murders etc. This is the difference between the BNP and all other parties. Free speech for Nazis means the denial of free speech to everyone else, and not just on the basis of colour either: anybody belong to a trade union? The nazis would have rounded you up as well.

At the moment the BNP is being quite tentative and coming over as fairly respectable, but watch them when things get more desperate and they feel more confident about hitting the streets.

It's understandable that people want a protest vote but the people who threw the eggs did us all a big favour by highlighting the fact that one protest vote could open the door to something much more dangerous.

The Nazis were different in that they organised the mass extermination of millions of Jews and millions of others who opposed them on an industrial scale, and the conditions that brought them to power, like economic depression and a complete lack of direction amongst the main political parties, could easily come back.

That's why they're more dangerous than the muslim extremists who carry placards calling for the "beheading" of those who oppose Islam. Having said that, my view is that the Islamists who turn up on protests advocating murder should be locked up and if they're not UK citizens they should be deported to their country of origin.

Agreed ..  only one point to add Muslim extremists can also make "cleaning" or "sweeping" when the conditions are ready..And I belive it can be more dangerous..Because religion is no joke

[webby23]

Exactly Lizzie, we agree on that.

Went to Auschwitz 2 yrs ago (Mrs. Webby (Polish) lost alot of family there) and until you have been you cannot begin to imagine the affect it has on you.

[cem_devecioglu]

ok, for the four guys on here who openly admit to voting for the BNP -  can I ask why?

What was it about their politics that attracts you, what policies do they have that makes you feel that they are the right party to run the country?

What area's of society will benefit by having them in power, and who will (in your eyes, justifiably) suffer as a result?

I have many reasons why I voted for the BNP but my main one is I am sick of this countries open border policy and I haven't heard anything from the major parties about it to make me want to vote for them.
Oh and before anyone suggests I am racist, my son in law is black and I have a lovely 9 month old grandson who is mixed race.

Exactly Pete! And Vmax mate you are spot on, White people in this country have less rights if everyone were to be totally honest. If you call someone a paki(abbreviation for a pakistani which is racist apparently but if we're called Brits and say thats racist thats fine!) you get done for racism, now my son was called white trash by someone from an ethnic group, now when he punched the boy he was in the wrong apparently and was put in a cell for ABH I mean he gave the boy a bloody nose! The boy from the ethnic group got away scott free for this, and would you say calling someone white trash would provoke them? The BNP lets face it are more for the thourogh bread British people but this makes them racist how does that work they are standing up for what they believe in, which is this country should be with people of British origin etc!
I can't say what I want to on a public forum to be honest, and before you say it no i'm not racist at all I have a few friends which are black etc was actually round one of there houses the other week for a BBQ.

Sorry LSG, no matter what arguments for or against the BNP you make, that sentence of yours does not mean much.  Hitler had many great Jewish friends when he was studying art in Vienna.........................

Yeah but being in support of the BNP does not make you racist, i'm British and agree with the Bnp's views doesn't make me a racist if I were racist I wouldn't talk to them at all would I as I could not stand them ?  If a muslim agree's with something that is against white people does that make them racist no it doesn't.

Well said LSG, and I dont feel I should justify my reasons for voting BNP to people who obviously have closed minds........

As for Auschwitz Lizzie, dont even get me started.......

Nor me Webby as that discussion could last hours I reckon!

I know Lizzie, thats something I'm very sure

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Exactly Lizzie, we agree on that.

Went to Auschwitz 2 yrs ago (Mrs. Webby (Polish) lost alot of family there) and until you have been you cannot begin to imagine the affect it has on you.

I come from a Jewish family background, so I well understand Webby, and sorry your wife lost family there

[webby23]

Exactly Lizzie, we agree on that.

Went to Auschwitz 2 yrs ago (Mrs. Webby (Polish) lost alot of family there) and until you have been you cannot begin to imagine the affect it has on you.

I come from a Jewish family background, so I well understand Webby, and sorry your wife lost family there

No worries, thanks 

[Del Boy]

Exactly Lizzie, we agree on that.

Went to Auschwitz 2 yrs ago (Mrs. Webby (Polish) lost alot of family there) and until you have been you cannot begin to imagine the affect it has on you.

I come from a Jewish family background, so I well understand Webby, and sorry your wife lost family there

No worries, thanks 

Indeed mate, sorry to hear too!