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[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Jesus...............this is hardly a pro-Europe thread.....there must be very few Liberal Democrats on OOF..........if this thread is anything to go by. :-/ :-/

If this discussion is representative ........of how people feel ......we may well end up with a UKIP...."Little Englander" government.....made up largely .....of disgruntled Ex-Tory voters.....
A potential problem .....for David Cameron.....Perhaps...

At least with a UKIP...."Little Englander" government, we would have a chance to air our views and lobby the decision makers. In the new post-lisbon EU, there is no democracy. I'll repeat that for you, NO DEMOCRACY[/b].

That's why it's bad. And it's bad for the left as well as the right. You may think that the new EU President will be a fellow leftie but with this apparatus in place, there is no way to prevent, in the future, a left or right extremist controlling the superstate.

We should get out now. I'm convinced of that. 

Once is quite sufficient thanks....Nickbat.....
Sadly.....UKIP.....is too insular and introspective a political party for my taste.
However.......I imagine........... that it could well appeal to many elderly members of society.......who wish to take Britain back to the nineteen fifties.....in a misguided belief that everything was so much better in the "Days of Empire".................

[Dishevelled Den]

Jesus...............this is hardly a pro-Europe thread.....there must be very few Liberal Democrats on OOF..........if this thread is anything to go by. :-/ :-/

If this discussion is representative ........of how people feel ......we may well end up with a UKIP...."Little Englander" government.....made up largely .....of disgruntled Ex-Tory voters.....
A potential problem .....for David Cameron.....Perhaps...

At least with a UKIP...."Little Englander" government, we would have a chance to air our views and lobby the decision makers. In the new post-lisbon EU, there is no democracy. I'll repeat that for you, NO DEMOCRACY[/b].

That's why it's bad. And it's bad for the left as well as the right. You may think that the new EU President will be a fellow leftie but with this apparatus in place, there is no way to prevent, in the future, a left or right extremist controlling the superstate.

We should get out now. I'm convinced of that. 

Once is quite sufficient thanks....Nickbat.....
Sadly.....UKIP.....is too insular and introspective a political party for my taste.
However.......I imagine........... that it could well appeal to many elderly members of society.......who wish to take Britain back to the nineteen fifties.....in a misguided belief that everything was so much better in the "Days of Empire".................

  Aah those heady days  8-) 8-) 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Jesus...............this is hardly a pro-Europe thread.....there must be very few Liberal Democrats on OOF..........if this thread is anything to go by. :-/ :-/

If this discussion is representative ........of how people feel ......we may well end up with a UKIP...."Little Englander" government.....made up largely .....of disgruntled Ex-Tory voters.....
A potential problem .....for David Cameron.....Perhaps...

At least with a UKIP...."Little Englander" government, we would have a chance to air our views and lobby the decision makers. In the new post-lisbon EU, there is no democracy. I'll repeat that for you, NO DEMOCRACY[/b].

That's why it's bad. And it's bad for the left as well as the right. You may think that the new EU President will be a fellow leftie but with this apparatus in place, there is no way to prevent, in the future, a left or right extremist controlling the superstate.

We should get out now. I'm convinced of that. 

Once is quite sufficient thanks....Nickbat.....
Sadly.....UKIP.....is too insular and introspective a political party for my taste.
However.......I imagine........... that it could well appeal to many elderly members of society.......who wish to take Britain back to the nineteen fifties.....in a misguided belief that everything was so much better in the "Days of Empire".................

  Aah those heady days  8-) 8-) 

.......if only Supermac still had the reins......eh....Zulu..

[albitz]

So, hypothetically speaking, irrespective of the party colour - trust no one?

And dont neccessarily jump on a passing bandwaggon and blame the current incumbents for the errors of the assorted predecessors....   

The reason for putting so much blame on the current lot is the fact that it was a major plank in their last manifesto that they would (in order to uphold democracy) give the British people a referendum on the proposed EU constitution.Shortly after this happened,many EU countries voted the constitutiopn down,so they moved a few commas and full stops and renamed it "The Lisbon Treaty" at which point our glorious leaders declared that it was no longer a constitution so they didnt need to keep their promise.Brown was so embarreses about his treachery that he turned up late for the official signing in order to keep himself out of the photo session (Im not making this up,honestly).Both the Tories and Lib Dems promised a referendum if they came to power and then changed their minds ,dont know why the Lib dems bothered.
The reasoning behind all this became clear shortly after Bliar left office and started campaigning to be the president of europe,which apparently now looks unlikely.We should I suppose be grateful for small mercies.

[albitz]

Election before Christmas, councils are getting everything ready...
Conservatives have blown it, they have nothing to offer and it was them that took us into the EU

I am not at all sure where this will leave things....

Do you have evidence of that? I would have thought that Brown would want to stay at the helm (steering towards the iceberg) for as long as possible. 

Yep.....

Well, I accept your word on that, Vamps. I thought GB would hold on longer, especially with the December Copenhagen Climate Agreement coming up. Also, I read a rumour that he was about to try and foist the euro on us before he left office, but I think that is BS.

I have had a sneaking suspicion for a while now that Brown,being the spinless cowardly egomaniac that he is ,might retire suddenly on health grounds (failing eyesight ring any bells) rather than face defeat at the ballot box.His legacy could then be written as a man who was almost one of the greatest leaders of our times,but the health issues which he battled bravely against for so long finaaly caught up with him,blah,blah etc,etc,
I might be wrong though.

[albitz]

Jesus...............this is hardly a pro-Europe thread.....there must be very few Liberal Democrats on OOF..........if this thread is anything to go by. :-/ :-/

If this discussion is representative ........of how people feel ......we may well end up with a UKIP...."Little Englander" government.....made up largely .....of disgruntled Ex-Tory voters..... A potential problem .....for David Cameron.....Perhaps...

We can live in hope. ..........Im not English btw. ......but I am British,and much more importantly I am a Democrat.I have lost good friends,young people in their prime,and very nearly lost my mother,all for the cause of defending democracy in this United Kingdom.For me this is an issue which is gravely important.
My own prediction for the election is that the Tories will win it comfortably.The only thing which might prevent this is that they might now have civil war in the party again over Europe,in which case the media will tear them to pieces.

[albitz]

Well coming in late on this discussion, I will purely state that I WILL be voting CONSERVATIVE 8-) 8-) 8-)

I would far rather a politician be honest and say NOW that the referendum is a lost issue due to the LEGAL situation that Britain is now in, thanks to the LABOUR Government ratifying the Lisbon Treaty, and then everyone else now doing so to seal, legally, the agreement !!!  

Cameron has told us the truth instead of stringing us along on a pack of lies.  Times have drastically changed since he first mentioned about holding a referendum!  Do NOT blame him for that.

A politician is legally bound by domestic, and in this case, international law like the rest of us.  He will just have to work within the Lisbon Treaty, with the rest of Europe to find what will be best for Britain. 8-) 8-)

He didnt mention a referendum,he gave the British people a "cast iron gurantee" that he would hold one,he isnt completely stupid,he knew that it may well be ratified before he came to power.
Imo,if he had a backbone and held the countries interests above his own he would take the view that the Britsh people voted to join the common market many years ago,but Europe has changed into something which bears no resemblence to what they voted for and they havent been allowed to vote on any of the changes,so we should have a once and for all referendum in the U.K. to either become fully paid up members of the U.S.E. (as that is what it now is ) or leave altogether and find out if this country is still capable of survivng on its own.We did do rather well for ourselves for many centuries up to about 40 years ago.

[Nickbat]

Well coming in late on this discussion, I will purely state that I WILL be voting CONSERVATIVE 8-) 8-) 8-)

I would far rather a politician be honest and say NOW that the referendum is a lost issue due to the LEGAL situation that Britain is now in, thanks to the LABOUR Government ratifying the Lisbon Treaty, and then everyone else now doing so to seal, legally, the agreement !!!  

Cameron has told us the truth instead of stringing us along on a pack of lies.  Times have drastically changed since he first mentioned about holding a referendum!  Do NOT blame him for that.

A politician is legally bound by domestic, and in this case, international law like the rest of us.  He will just have to work within the Lisbon Treaty, with the rest of Europe to find what will be best for Britain. 8-) 8-)

He didnt mention a referendum,he gave the British people a "cast iron gurantee" that he would hold one,he isnt completely stupid,he knew that it may well be ratified before he came to power.
Imo,if he had a backbone and held the countries interests above his own he would take the view that the Britsh people voted to join the common market many years ago,but Europe has changed into something which bears no resemblence to what they voted for and they havent been allowed to vote on any of the changes,so we should have a once and for all referendum in the U.K. to either become fully paid up members of the U.S.E. (as that is what it now is ) or leave altogether and find out if this country is still capable of survivng on its own.We did do rather well for ourselves for many centuries up to about 40 years ago.

I see it increasingly referred to as the EUSSR, Albs. 

[albitz]

I wont argue with that Nick.Welcome to UKIP btw.  

[Nickbat]

For Lizzie:
"Speaking to the Guardian, the French Europe minister, Pierre Lellouche, describes as "pathetic" the Tories' EU plans announced today, warning that they will not succeed "for a minute".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/04/france-autistic-tories-castrated-uk

Nice to know that DC's views will be taken on board in the EU.



BTW, thanks for the welcome, Albs! 

[Dishevelled Den]

For Lizzie:
"Speaking to the Guardian, the French Europe minister, Pierre Lellouche, describes as "pathetic" the Tories' EU plans announced today, warning that they will not succeed "for a minute".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/04/france-autistic-tories-castrated-uk

Nice to know that DC's views will be taken on board in the EU.



BTW, thanks for the welcome, Albs! 

...I wonder what they're so worried about losing 

Perhaps we're not so irrelevant after all 

[Nickbat]

OK, here's my prophecy.

Daniel Hannan will jump ship and join UKIP and be elected leader.

Election in 2010: Hung government. Con/UKIP holding majority (could be either way), Labour third. LibDems obliterated.

I reserve the right to amend this prophecy as soon as it starts to look daft!   

*Daniel Hannan has resigned from the from the conservative front-bench in Europe.*

Could he...? Would he...?

Watch this space. 

[Nickbat]

"The EU is a Reincarnation of the Former Soviet Union"
- Pravda

http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/04-11-2009/110289-berlin_wall-0

...and they should know.