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[splott]

[quote
 author=73706C6F7474000 link=1262379896/24#24
 date=1262385473]

I'm afraid that capital punishment by way of judicial ruling doesn’t solve much

There is little deterrent effect to those who kill in the heat of the moment as they will generally will do so whether there is a lawful deterrent in force or not. These crimes are usually committed whilst the offender is entirely focussed on committing the act and not rationalising what the consequences of that act might be.

Those who choose to kill in a premeditated fashion will, in the majority of cases, do so whether or not there are sanctions in place as they have, for the most part, considered the possible punishment during their premeditations and work on the premise that they will not be apprehended.


The only thing that capital punishment provides for in my view – following due judicial process – is a state of ‘closure’ for the relatives of the victims.  To suggest that it would also save the state the expense of imprisonment for the offender would perhaps be crass.

The notion that if one person takes the life of another, with the intention of purposefully ending that persons life, that offender should lose their right to life, is another question entirely and one that perhaps provides traction to the desire for some to have, rightly or wrongly, ‘an eye for an eye’ 

The eye for an eye I agree with and closure for the family I agree with. So in that case justice is, get these scum bags of this planet, put them down like you would a rabid dog!!

The irrefutable evidence alluded to by the OP (ST) will always provide the stumbling block for those charged with applying capital punishment as not all persons accused and subsequently convicted of capital crimes are indeed guilty.  Miscarriages of justice have been made and will continue to be made.

Whether or not convicted persons are lawfully killed by the state judicial process is moot as that process will, by in large, fail to provide a deterrent to the crime thus allowing such crimes to be committed on a continuing basis.

Sorry but that is the usual minorty tosh that is banded about, the majoriy want capital punishment brought back. But minority rules!!!Sad that the majority don't  speak up!! Its not PC is it???

minorty tosh

Forgive me Splott, but having dealt with countless matters during my long service where people were the victims of murder, premeditated or not, I feel that my argument merits slightly more consideration than to be considered tosh


the majority want capital punishment brought back

Is that the majority here on the OOF or a majority in the country as a whole and should it be, can you provide a basis for that assertion.  If it were to be reinstated at the behest of the 'majority' would it be any the more a deterrent to such capital crimes?

Furthermore I can assure you that I'm far from 'PC'[/quote]

Sorry that your involved with this sort of thing but it does not change my opinion.  Remember the the majority don't speak up, they just moan. The minority get up and support their caurse. A sad fact of life and going by what you say you have to abide by these rules. If the law changes then may be you would have a different opinion.

[Pete Elite]

The laws are made and administered by people who are not ever likely to encounter the crimes that they make and administer these laws for so why should they care!!!
 Maybe if a few Peers, Judges, MPs, Royalty or their family members and the like were to be killed in a drive by shooting, raped and murdered, mugged/beaten for their pension monies etc. etc., then maybe they would begin to think like the average man/women in the street does, but what is the likelihood of that ever happening???

 I myself believe that what we have now obviously doesn't work so.........................?

People who have experienced crime first-hand are often the worst ones to decide on just punishments.  Penalties need to be arrived at by level-headed groups of people who are un-tainted by personal emotions like that.

 So your saying that the sort of people that are best equipped to dish out laws and punishments are those that have no everyday understanding or encounters with them!!! If so then God help us all .

[jereboam]

Just suppose we reinstate capital punishment for "murder".  Is that the only offence that should be punished that way? 

Treason used to be a capital offence.  So for that matter, was "arson in Her Majesty's shipyards". 

Someone mentioned "peodos" - should offences committed by paedophiles, regardless of whether they actually resulted in the death of the victim, be punishable by death?  And what about rape?  It's nasty crime, inadequately dealt with by our 21st century society, but the false accusation rate, the prosecution rate and, ultimately, the 5% conviction rate do not give one confidence that justice is being done.

So what about causing death by driving while drunk?  Yeah, hang 'em.  Causing death by driving dangerously? 

Kidnapping?  There's a nasty one - used to be a federal capital offence in the USA - take your victim over the state line, and its the chair/rope/gas chamber/firing sqad for you, Bud.  And of course there's drug dealing.  As we all know, many countries in the far east, including China, execute criminals for this heinous deed, even when they are clearly mentally unbalanced.

Armed robbery?  Just think of the trauma the victims suffer.  Common assault?  Drunk and disorderly? 

And then we come to sheep stealing.  Not so much of it about these days (at, least we don't hear much about it), but definitely a capital offence.

And while we're at it, why not bring back public executions - go down well in Saudi Arabia, I understand.  Along with the occasional stoning, for light relief.  Got a great idea - demolish Marble Atrch and re-erect the Tyburn Tree.  Restore the Old Bailey to what used to be there - Newgate Prison.  And while we're at it, bring back the Marshalsea for those who can't pay their gas bills.

Where can we go next - trial by combat?  I know - the ducking stool for parking offences - what larks!

Include me out.

[bertiecbx550]

Can we just bring back deportation to Austrailia for stealing an Hovis loaf please??? I could with a free holiday with an ocean voyage and beach sports...

[STMO999]

I don't have any fancy argument about deterrent effect or punishment or justice or debt to society.

I just don't want anyone taking anyone else's life in my name, and that's exactly what capital punishment is.

We've grown out of it, I'm glad to say, let's not take a giant step backwards.

Absolutely. Hopelessly inedequate though the current justice system may be, we don't need capital punishment, IMHO. We need life sentences that mean life, prisons that aren't holiday camps and the recognition that the prisoners therein are there to be punished by having their rights removed not to be "rehabilitated" and pandered to.

Kevin

Hey the victtims  don't have a choice, their gone! Just get rid of the virmin and save on taxes.

I believe, but could be wrong, that the US States which still give the Death Penalty show that the cost of putting someone to sleep exceeds the cost of keeping them incarcerated for life (and that does mean life).

What about the peodo's and the rapists, they put their victims trough a living hell. If proven then put them down.

What about the multiple murderes?  That are only now being found out?

If they were dead and buried after the first one then the numerous other unfortunate cases now surfacing would, sadly, be swept into oblivion as there was no 'trial' to apportion blame....

Think Peter Tobin and  Robert Black.....

Another way of looking at that is they may not have had a chance to murder again.

[albitz]

I have always been against Capital punishment ,but I must admit that I have been wavering in recent times.I have always thought it to be a sign of an uncivilised society, but we have to a degree allowed things to slide so far in the other direction that the criminal element is growing bigger and serious crime recieving more lenient punishment and this is making us a less civilised society.The thin blue line became stretched to way past breaking point a long time ago.
I think Kevin Wood has suggested the correct answer to the question.Life should mean life,unless you are proven to have been wrongly convicted.

[Dishevelled Den]

I don't have any fancy argument about deterrent effect or punishment or justice or debt to society.

I just don't want anyone taking anyone else's life in my name, and that's exactly what capital punishment is.

We've grown out of it, I'm glad to say, let's not take a giant step backwards.

Absolutely. Hopelessly inedequate though the current justice system may be, we don't need capital punishment, IMHO. We need life sentences that mean life, prisons that aren't holiday camps and the recognition that the prisoners therein are there to be punished by having their rights removed not to be "rehabilitated" and pandered to.

Kevin

Hey the victtims  don't have a choice, their gone! Just get rid of the virmin and save on taxes.

I believe, but could be wrong, that the US States which still give the Death Penalty show that the cost of putting someone to sleep exceeds the cost of keeping them incarcerated for life (and that does mean life).

What about the peodo's and the rapists, they put their victims trough a living hell. If proven then put them down.

What about the multiple murderes?  That are only now being found out?

If they were dead and buried after the first one then the numerous other unfortunate cases now surfacing would, sadly, be swept into oblivion as there was no 'trial' to apportion blame....

Think Peter Tobin and  Robert Black.....

Another way of looking at that is they may not have had a chance to murder again.

Another way of looking at that is they may not have had a chance to murder again.


That's a fair enough point S but it doesn't necessarily mean that others who either commit or are thinking about committing such acts will be deterred from doing so by the threat of capital punishment.

In many countries where capital punishment is applied in response to the commission of qualifying offences, there seems to be a distinct lack of deterrent in such a threat as people continue to commit these offences.  This fact is worth exploring as those countries - certain states within the USA, China, and various in the Middle East - seem to apply the penalty with rigor and determination.

No, capital punishment is an ineffective deterrent in that respect, I'm more inclined to agree however with your initial comments regarding a stricter prison regime with full tariff sentences being served with less opportunity for early release based on the severity of the offence.

What an interesting thread S, thank you  8-)

[STMO999]

It's funny you should raise these points Zulu. As I was posting last night the missus had a 'Worst criminals' or some such tosh on the telly. These guys were absolute madmen, running amok full of drugs. No deterrent would have made them think twice.

[cem_devecioglu]

I'm afraid that capital punishment by way of judicial ruling doesn’t solve much

There is little deterrent effect to those who kill in the heat of the moment as they will generally will do so whether there is a lawful deterrent in force or not. These crimes are usually committed whilst the offender is entirely focussed on committing the act and not rationalising what the consequences of that act might be.

Those who choose to kill in a premeditated fashion will, in the majority of cases, do so whether or not there are sanctions in place as they have, for the most part, considered the possible punishment during their premeditations and work on the premise that they will not be apprehended.


The only thing that capital punishment provides for in my view – following due judicial process – is a state of ‘closure’ for the relatives of the victims.  To suggest that it would also save the state the expense of imprisonment for the offender would perhaps be crass.

The notion that if one person takes the life of another, with the intention of purposefully ending that persons life, that offender should lose their right to life, is another question entirely and one that perhaps provides traction to the desire for some to have, rightly or wrongly, ‘an eye for an eye’ 

definitely..    crime and punishment is really a science and easy conclusions are proven to bring nothing..

[cem_devecioglu]

I don't have any fancy argument about deterrent effect or punishment or justice or debt to society.

I just don't want anyone taking anyone else's life in my name, and that's exactly what capital punishment is.

We've grown out of it, I'm glad to say, let's not take a giant step backwards.

well said

[cem_devecioglu]

my mate said drugs are so easy to get inside because the guards want an easy life,they turn a blind eye to most things, while there out of there heads there not fighting or giving the gaurds any grief.

yep.. the weakest point of system .. human factor..

[cem_devecioglu]

Capital punishment is always going to be frought with difficulty and danger as regards its legal descisions and, ultimately, its mistakes.

Despite the evidential advances with the likes of DNA profiling and similar, the whole system remains, potentially, flawed by its over reliance on civil libertarians and an over abundance of persons in positions of critical descision making who are still intent on a life peerage or similar, rather than grab a bull by the horns.

Personally, I have no problems with the eye for an eye analogy but it remains a one shot deal.  If its wrong, its too late to get the pads out and have everyone close by 'to stand clear - charging' as per Casualty each week....

 

[cem_devecioglu]

Perhaps murderers could be sent out to test Taliban resistance on the front line in Afghanistan.

Just a thought. 

 

thats really a brilliant idea.. we have a saying "one stone , two birds" 

[cem_devecioglu]

I don't have any fancy argument about deterrent effect or punishment or justice or debt to society.

I just don't want anyone taking anyone else's life in my name, and that's exactly what capital punishment is.

We've grown out of it, I'm glad to say, let's not take a giant step backwards.

Absolutely. Hopelessly inedequate though the current justice system may be, we don't need capital punishment, IMHO. We need life sentences that mean life, prisons that aren't holiday camps and the recognition that the prisoners therein are there to be punished by having their rights removed not to be "rehabilitated" and pandered to.

Kevin

Hey the victtims  don't have a choice, their gone! Just get rid of the virmin and save on taxes.

I believe, but could be wrong, that the US States which still give the Death Penalty show that the cost of putting someone to sleep exceeds the cost of keeping them incarcerated for life (and that does mean life).

What about the peodo's and the rapists, they put their victims trough a living hell. If proven then put them down.

What about the multiple murderes?  That are only now being found out?

If they were dead and buried after the first one then the numerous other unfortunate cases now surfacing would, sadly, be swept into oblivion as there was no 'trial' to apportion blame....

Think Peter Tobin and  Robert Black.....

if proven Russians way of solving is very practical : one shot in head .. not necessary to loose time..

[Dishevelled Den]

It's funny you should raise these points Zulu. As I was posting last night the missus had a 'Worst criminals' or some such tosh on the telly. These guys were absolute madmen, running amok full of drugs. No deterrent would have made them think twice.

A case in point S