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[cruisetopoland]

Spot on Kevin.

Plenty of people moan about rules and regs but don't actually excercise their democratic rights (hard won at that) to get things changed.

The Europe link is very tenuous. If you visit our European neighbours you will find they are "more relaxed" about life. There was a poll on the best countries to live in the world recently. Britain was 25th from memory. France, Belgium, Switzerland and Oz were up there in the top 5 or so. It was based on a wide criteria.

As I have said before, a lot of todays problems are derived from the (parents) "Can't say NO" culture of the 90's . We reap what we sowed.

I'm happy to call myself European; in some countries it is embarrassing admitting I am English because of our reputation for violence and drunken stupidity.

I never have accepted the "English is best" argument; we do some things very well but on balance we would do well to learn much from many other countries.

Many are moaning about England/UK being in a mess and then saying it is better than anywhere else.  It does not add up  :-/

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Spot on Kevin.

Plenty of people moan about rules and regs but don't actually excercise their democratic rights (hard won at that) to get things changed.

The Europe link is very tenuous. If you visit our European neighbours you will find they are "more relaxed" about life. There was a poll on the best countries to live in the world recently. Britain was 25th from memory. France, Belgium, Switzerland and Oz were up there in the top 5 or so. It was based on a wide criteria.

As I have said before, a lot of todays problems are derived from the (parents) "Can't say NO" culture of the 90's . We reap what we sowed.

I'm happy to call myself European; in some countries it is embarrassing admitting I am English because of our reputation for violence and drunken stupidity.

I never have accepted the "English is best" argument; we do some things very well but on balance we would do well to learn much from many other countries.

Many are moaning about England/UK being in a mess and then saying it is better than anywhere else.  It does not add up  :-/

Dead right on all points!

[Nickbat]

Good Morning! Seems like I missed out on the debate last night … so here are three observations:

Curious how any members of this forum can claim to hate “Europe” when the one thing that brings us together is owning German cars. It is interesting to see what the people who complain about the run down of British industry are actually driving.

Smoking ban - I can imagine a picture now of the tobacco companies like devils rubbing their hands and cackling at how their slaves are squabbling about where and how they can get their fix. The real criminal here is the greed of the corporations for making a cynical profit out of human weakness. Or is it the governments over the years who have failed to regulate becuase they are afraid of losing the tax revenue? Or is it me because I allow (encourage) my pension fund to lend my money to the tobacco companies? Answers on a postcard please. Address it to yourself.

One member complained about the consequences of breaking the speed limit when on a “relaxing” drive. Another wrote about being fearful of letting his kids play in the street because of speeding cars. Hmmm… I wonder if there’s any connection here? [/sarcasm]

I reiterate my point yesterday about mutual obligations as well as “rights”.

Yesterday I said “stop moaning and do something about it”.  CtP suggested forming a new party - for which the response was along the lines of “oh no! can’t do that!”. So, instead, make sure you vote! How many of the moaners don’t vote because of ... whatever moany reason they have. Have you written to your MP? Do you know how your MP is? Ditto for MEP. Ditto for local councillor. Spoken to the independent candidate? Joined a trade union? Professional body? Trade association? Become an active member of a campaigning organisation - be it Amnesty, ASH, AA - whatever suits your need. Go to a local council meeting. And so on.

It starts with you …

[/patronise]

Yes Kevin, you are really singing off the same hymn sheet as me!

I am delighted that my freedom to walk into a pub, club, cinema and not be assulted by cancer giving polution from cigerattes is being protected!

I am delighted that when driving any one who is "relaxing" into a state of unconsciousness of their surroundings and 'distant' from their driving responsibilities have a chance of perhaps being stopped, and picking up a sizeable fine, before smashing into me and my passengers!

I am delighted that anyone who uses hateful, spiteful, destructive, racist language or actions in public (as they did when I was a kid) is properly brought to book and disowned by society, with my freedom to not hear such offensive expressions being upheld!

I am delighted that CCTV has spread and is indeed monitoring what is going on in the street with crime being reduced as a result, and here in Ashford the police cells being closed down due to a lack of occupants!

I am delighted to live in the Britain of today without all the issues of yesterday handicapping our lives!

I am not delighted that the freedom to smoke in segregated areas is no longer available.

I suppose you ALWAYS observe the limit to the nearest 1mph, even when the road is traffic free. Such a saint. Next time you follow someone who slams on the brakes at the sight of a partially hidden Gatso, or Talevan, while travelling at 34mph in a 30 zone make sure you don't hit them. You twisted the point I was making. I am not advocating crashing into cars...as well, you know.

The point about political correctness in language is that it has been applied subjectively with excessive zeal. Your freedom not to hear things you don't want to hear impinges upon my freedom to hear them. Who's to say you're right and I'm not?

I am not keen that my every move is being watched by a camera (and my voice being recorded on some).
Soem surveillance is necessary, but in other countries where CCTV is far less widespread than here, they have lower crime rates. Thus your point about empty cells is not particularly valid.

 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Good Morning! Seems like I missed out on the debate last night … so here are three observations:

Curious how any members of this forum can claim to hate “Europe” when the one thing that brings us together is owning German cars. It is interesting to see what the people who complain about the run down of British industry are actually driving.

Smoking ban - I can imagine a picture now of the tobacco companies like devils rubbing their hands and cackling at how their slaves are squabbling about where and how they can get their fix. The real criminal here is the greed of the corporations for making a cynical profit out of human weakness. Or is it the governments over the years who have failed to regulate becuase they are afraid of losing the tax revenue? Or is it me because I allow (encourage) my pension fund to lend my money to the tobacco companies? Answers on a postcard please. Address it to yourself.

One member complained about the consequences of breaking the speed limit when on a “relaxing” drive. Another wrote about being fearful of letting his kids play in the street because of speeding cars. Hmmm… I wonder if there’s any connection here? [/sarcasm]

I reiterate my point yesterday about mutual obligations as well as “rights”.

Yesterday I said “stop moaning and do something about it”.  CtP suggested forming a new party - for which the response was along the lines of “oh no! can’t do that!”. So, instead, make sure you vote! How many of the moaners don’t vote because of ... whatever moany reason they have. Have you written to your MP? Do you know how your MP is? Ditto for MEP. Ditto for local councillor. Spoken to the independent candidate? Joined a trade union? Professional body? Trade association? Become an active member of a campaigning organisation - be it Amnesty, ASH, AA - whatever suits your need. Go to a local council meeting. And so on.

It starts with you …

[/patronise]

Yes Kevin, you are really singing off the same hymn sheet as me!

I am delighted that my freedom to walk into a pub, club, cinema and not be assulted by cancer giving polution from cigerattes is being protected!

I am delighted that when driving any one who is "relaxing" into a state of unconsciousness of their surroundings and 'distant' from their driving responsibilities have a chance of perhaps being stopped, and picking up a sizeable fine, before smashing into me and my passengers!

I am delighted that anyone who uses hateful, spiteful, destructive, racist language or actions in public (as they did when I was a kid) is properly brought to book and disowned by society, with my freedom to not hear such offensive expressions being upheld!

I am delighted that CCTV has spread and is indeed monitoring what is going on in the street with crime being reduced as a result, and here in Ashford the police cells being closed down due to a lack of occupants!

I am delighted to live in the Britain of today without all the issues of yesterday handicapping our lives!

1. I am not delighted that the freedom to smoke in segregated areas is no longer available.

2.  I suppose you ALWAYS observe the limit to the nearest 1mph, even when the road is traffic free. Such a saint. Next time you follow someone who slams on the brakes at the sight of a partially hidden Gatso, or Talevan, while travelling at 34mph in a 30 zone make sure you don't hit them. You twisted the point I was making. I am not advocating crashing into cars...as well, you know.

3.  The point about political correctness in language is that it has been applied subjectively with excessive zeal. Your freedom not to hear things you don't want to hear impinges upon my freedom to hear them. Who's to say you're right and I'm not?

4.  I am not keen that my every move is being watched by a camera (and my voice being recorded on some).
Soem surveillance is necessary, but in other countries where CCTV is far less widespread than here, they have lower crime rates. Thus your point about empty cells is not particularly valid.

 

!.  Well Nick I AM delighted you can no longer freely smoke and course you, and others around you, to suffer smoking relating illnesses that cost every taxpayer billions to treat, if they live!


2. You were talking about drivers being in a relaxed state Nick; my answer was related to that!

3.  The critical issue about freedom is that you as a person can enjoy it, but in that process you should not harm others peoples freedom.  Thus in a civilised, educated society, no-one should have the freedom to use offensive language that hurts emotionally other people just because they want to.  The big question Nick is why should you want to??   Who says you or I or right?  Well the law does say I am if you use offensive language, a "hate crime", in a public place or publish, or on the internet!

4.  If you have nothing to hide Nick why does CCTV worry you?  It is a method by which society can be protected, and also you as an individual.  This is another example of how you think the world and his wife is out to get you and downtrodden men, how your cynasism is affecting the way you think as a whole, and you are not seeing the many positives of life in the UK.  You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process.  Paint it all black if you so wish, but the reality is we mostly benefit from our system of today, rather than the inequalities that were rife in the "good old days" of 200 years ago.

[Nickbat]

My word, Lizzie, you have changed. I always thought of you as a defender of individual freedom..a true conservative (small "c").

I can't be bothered to respond to all your points as I have more important things to do right now, but I will say that your statement....

"You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process."

..is utter tosh.   

[JamesV6CDX]

Just as an aside, I had a tour of the CCTV for a city nearby, recently.

I always knew it existed, but I was absolutely gobsmacked at how detailed it was, how close you could get, and how wide an area it covers....

I agree that most CCTV operators and the organisation they are in are genuine people, but as with any role, you will get bad apples...

[Lizzie_Zoom]

My word, Lizzie, you have changed. I always thought of you as a defender of individual freedom..a true conservative (small "c").

I can't be bothered to respond to all your points as I have more important things to do right now, but I will say that your statement....

"You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process."

..is utter tosh.   

Fine, as usual we will agree to disagree as I do believe  in personal freedom, but not at a cost to others.  The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive and I am sorry to say very boring. 

As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression.  But of course you admitted to me you are "not up to it"! 

[mathewst]

Can't say much about Brittain.
But my country sure went downhill in the last 20 years.
Yeah we got the oportunity to vote, but people are living worse than 20 years ago.
In former country there was almost no unemployment, crime was low, social security was great, healthcare was good, people could leave their houses unlocked (actually almost nobody locked the doors especially in smaller towns and villages), people were frendlier, more open and more happy.
I guess all of Europe has been going downhill, some countries more some less in tha last two decades

[Varche]

Can't say much about Brittain.
But my country sure went downhill in the last 20 years.
Yeah we got the oportunity to vote, but people are living worse than 20 years ago.
In former country there was almost no unemployment, crime was low, social security was great, healthcare was good, people could leave their houses unlocked (actually almost nobody locked the doors especially in smaller towns and villages), people were frendlier, more open and more happy.
I guess all of Europe has been going downhill, some countries more some less in tha last two decades

That is quite sad to hear. Has anything improved? (road network maybe?)

[cruisetopoland]

My word, Lizzie, you have changed. I always thought of you as a defender of individual freedom..a true conservative (small "c").

I can't be bothered to respond to all your points as I have more important things to do right now, but I will say that your statement....

"You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process."

..is utter tosh.   

Fine, as usual we will agree to disagree as I do believe  in personal freedom, but not at a cost to others.  The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive and I am sorry to say very boring. 

As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression.  But of course you admitted to me you are "not up to it"! 

Some good points E

I did not want to start a battle, hence my earlier  comment about avoiding these threads, in the same vein as my thought "do something positive, or do nothing".

When I first found the OOF site, I thought I had uncovered a clandestine revolutionary party after reading the huge number of anti government/ political threads, but realised it was often whinge and rhetoric, so have avoided posting previously.

I enjoy a good discussion, but it does get a bit samey  :-?

No offence meant at any stage NB-everyone is welcome to their views 

[jereboam]

OK - attempt number 3.

This thread is about whether Britain today is better or worse that it was when we were all younger.  At least, I think that's what it is about.

It's better.  There can't be any argument.  We are materially better off.  We have better social welfare, we have better health and health services.  We have better cars that do less damage to the environment, and more of us have them.  We have better entertainment and communications.  We even have better education (if you average it out), although I fundamentally disagree with a lot of what's happening there. 

Rights and responsibilities.  Means nothing.  We live in a "society" and we have to abide by its rules and customs, or we get out or get thrown out.  There are people in charge - there have always been and will always be people in charge.  I doubt very much if they are all working for our benefit, and they never have been.  We never had much "freedom" before, so it's pointless to bitch about our freedom being eroded.  If we did have more "freedom", what would we do with it?  We'd still pay some people to be policemen, because most of us don't want to do that job, but can see that it needs to be done. 

So we've dropped out out the economic top ten.  So?  150 years ago, we were number 1.  Thanks to India and large parts of Africa working for us.  Again, average it out and see just how much "freedom" we've lost.

Europe? What the hell's the matter there? We are geographically part of Europe.  We are ethnically part of Europe.  We've a damn sight more in common with the Germans, Slovaks and Portuguese than we have with the Chinese or the Nigerians.  So there's a bunch of tight-*rsed bureaucrats running the show at the moment - vote them out, or emigrate to China or Nigeria.  But face the facts, we aren't going to survive economically on our own.

I hate Gordon Brown, but I lived under George Brown too, and, believe me, we're better off where we are now.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

OK - attempt number 3.

This thread is about whether Britain today is better or worse that it was when we were all younger.  At least, I think that's what it is about.

It's better.  There can't be any argument.  We are materially better off.  We have better social welfare, we have better health and health services.  We have better cars that do less damage to the environment, and more of us have them.  We have better entertainment and communications.  We even have better education (if you average it out), although I fundamentally disagree with a lot of what's happening there. 

Rights and responsibilities.  Means nothing.  We live in a "society" and we have to abide by its rules and customs, or we get out or get thrown out.  There are people in charge - there have always been and will always be people in charge.  I doubt very much if they are all working for our benefit, and they never have been.  We never had much "freedom" before, so it's pointless to bitch about our freedom being eroded.  If we did have more "freedom", what would we do with it?  We'd still pay some people to be policemen, because most of us don't want to do that job, but can see that it needs to be done. 

So we've dropped out out the economic top ten.  So?  150 years ago, we were number 1.  Thanks to India and large parts of Africa working for us.  Again, average it out and see just how much "freedom" we've lost.

Europe? What the hell's the matter there? We are geographically part of Europe.  We are ethnically part of Europe.  We've a damn sight more in common with the Germans, Slovaks and Portuguese than we have with the Chinese or the Nigerians.  So there's a bunch of tight-*rsed bureaucrats running the show at the moment - vote them out, or emigrate to China or Nigeria.  But face the facts, we aren't going to survive economically on our own.

I hate Gordon Brown, but I lived under George Brown too, and, believe me, we're better off where we are now.

Well said Jereboam, and I for one very much agree with almost everything all you state  

The only small matter I would perhaps argue, as I have elsewhere on this extended thread, is that most of those working in the Civil Service, Health Service, Education, Police Service, Armed Services are working to the best of their ability to give us the service we require.  Yes, there are some very unfortunate exceptions, bad apples, but that is life generally and probably will never be erradicated.

[cruisetopoland]

OK - attempt number 3.

This thread is about whether Britain today is better or worse that it was when we were all younger.  At least, I think that's what it is about.

It's better.  There can't be any argument.  We are materially better off.  We have better social welfare, we have better health and health services.  We have better cars that do less damage to the environment, and more of us have them.  We have better entertainment and communications.  We even have better education (if you average it out), although I fundamentally disagree with a lot of what's happening there. 

Rights and responsibilities.  Means nothing.  We live in a "society" and we have to abide by its rules and customs, or we get out or get thrown out.  There are people in charge - there have always been and will always be people in charge.  I doubt very much if they are all working for our benefit, and they never have been.  We never had much "freedom" before, so it's pointless to bitch about our freedom being eroded.  If we did have more "freedom", what would we do with it?  We'd still pay some people to be policemen, because most of us don't want to do that job, but can see that it needs to be done. 

So we've dropped out out the economic top ten.  So?  150 years ago, we were number 1.  Thanks to India and large parts of Africa working for us.  Again, average it out and see just how much "freedom" we've lost.

Europe? What the hell's the matter there? We are geographically part of Europe.  We are ethnically part of Europe.  We've a damn sight more in common with the Germans, Slovaks and Portuguese than we have with the Chinese or the Nigerians.  So there's a bunch of tight-*rsed bureaucrats running the show at the moment - vote them out, or emigrate to China or Nigeria.  But face the facts, we aren't going to survive economically on our own.

I hate Gordon Brown, but I lived under George Brown too, and, believe me, we're better off where we are now.

Well put 

[Dishevelled Den]

!.  Well Nick I AM delighted you can no longer freely smoke and course you, and others around you, to suffer smoking relating illnesses that cost every taxpayer billions to treat, if they live!


2. You were talking about drivers being in a relaxed state Nick; my answer was related to that!

3.  The critical issue about freedom is that you as a person can enjoy it, but in that process you should not harm others peoples freedom.  Thus in a civilised, educated society, no-one should have the freedom to use offensive language that hurts emotionally other people just because they want to.  The big question Nick is why should you want to??   Who says you or I or right?  Well the law does say I am if you use offensive language, a "hate crime", in a public place or publish, or on the internet!

4. have nothing to hide Nick why does CCTV  If you worry you?  It is a method by which society can be protected, and also you as an individual.  This is another example of how you think the world and his wife is out to get you and downtrodden men, how your cynasism is affecting the way you think as a whole, and you are not seeing the many positives of life in the UK.  You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process.  Paint it all black if you so wish, but the reality is we mostly benefit from our system of today, rather than t


Well Nick I AM delighted you can no longer freely smoke and course you, and others around you, to suffer smoking relating illnesses that cost every taxpayer billions to treat, if they live!


I have never smoked and I detest the smell of it however there are other chronic conditions also contracted by way of excessive behaviour that will cost the taxpayer just as much or even more to treat.  We tend to disinterested in health related matters until we suffer their consequences and even when many become aware of their condition, little changes in their regime to try and correct the matter – smoking is no different.


 have nothing to hide Nick why does CCTV  If you worry you?  It is a method by which society can be protected, and also you as an individual.

If you believe that Elizabeth I'm very surprised, CCTV where it's installed and monitored by trained personnel can be of use to the police when responding to a developing situation.  However how many times have we heard that the image quality isn't sufficient to positively identify those suspected of misdemeanours so it isn’t as beneficial as many suggest?

CCTV was thought to be a way to monitor the areas under surveillance that lacked a regular police presence.  Its proliferation isn't welcome news as this, I believe, is a way to police on the cheap - it certainly isn't an answer to putting miscreants in court.

The fact that we have no choice in the matter when we walk the public streets but to be observed holds the potential for abuse. That unwelcome fact is quite evident in the way the RIP Act has been used to enable those deemed responsible to observe and record the movements of people not necessarily committing crimes in the generally accepted sense of the word.  We used to call this mission creep and the fact is if the facility is there, it will be used for purposes other than originally intended.


that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process.

That's a bit idealistic and unrealistic there E.  I have been an establishment figure most of my adult life with the ***, ** and *** and can say that I was aware that many I had dealings with in various departments had no real interest in working for the benefit of this nation or its inhabitants.  They were there because it afforded employment.

[Dishevelled Den]

My word, Lizzie, you have changed. I always thought of you as a defender of individual freedom..a true conservative (small "c").

I can't be bothered to respond to all your points as I have more important things to do right now, but I will say that your statement....

"You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process."

..is utter tosh.   

Fine, as usual we will agree to disagree as I do believe  in personal freedom, but not at a cost to others. The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive and I am sorry to say very boring. 

As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression.  But of course you admitted to me you are "not up to it"! 

The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive


Is that really the case E?  I thought that Nick was simply highlighting the many ways in which our establishment has been skewed by a plethora of rules and regulations - not all made by our own legisllature.  Should he refrain from this?
I don't think so.

As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression.

Irrespective on whether Nick chooses to follow your direction E, does this disqualify his commenting on these matters on this forum - it certainly doesn't make him the lesser for it?