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[threppence]

Is it possible to compare 'Now and 'Then' with regard to which is better.

There are direct comparables such as Life expectancy, median incomes, literacy rates ect. but very much more that is purely a subjective viewpoint.

That subjective viewpoint also changes with time, we now regard Mozart as a classical genius but in his time he was looked at as a renegade, an 18 century 'punk rocker'.

My 16y-old daughter can't believe we had only 3 t.v. channels, 1 broadcasting in black and white and all shutting down on Sundays til the evening, power cuts and using log books for maths.I found it hard to believe my parents went round to the only house on the street with a t.v. to watch the coronation.

Every society has arguments about change and how things have gotten worse since they were younger, Socrates for example said:-

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

We've all got a viewpoint on changing society, but that's all it is, a point of view that is held by each person deriving from their experiences past and present.
Each viewpoint is valid but I don't think we can say it was better then or it's better now.Probably the best we can do is say somethings are demonstrably better, by direct comparison and other things have changed, whether we like it or not.

Britain isn't the same, and it will be different tomorrow as  yesterday was to today.

[Dishevelled Den]

My word, Lizzie, you have changed. I always thought of you as a defender of individual freedom..a true conservative (small "c").

I can't be bothered to respond to all your points as I have more important things to do right now, but I will say that your statement....

"You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process."

..is utter tosh.   

Fine, as usual we will agree to disagree as I do believe  in personal freedom, but not at a cost to others.  The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive and I am sorry to say very boring. 

As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression.  But of course you admitted to me you are "not up to it"! 

Some good points E

I did not want to start a battle, hence my earlier  comment about avoiding these threads, in the same vein as my thought "do something positive, or do nothing".

When I first found the OOF site, I thought I had uncovered a clandestine revolutionary party after reading the huge number of anti government/ political threads, but realised it was often whinge and rhetoric, so have avoided posting previously.

I enjoy a good discussion, but it does get a bit samey  :-?

No offence meant at any stage NB-everyone is welcome to their views 

 but realised it was often whinge and rhetoric,


That's a very jaundiced view C, can legitimate comment not be made without breast-beating on the streets?


the huge number of anti government/ political threads

To legitimately criticise a government that has led us into two intractable wars, convened more laws in its lifetime than many know how to catalogue, made a mess of our public services and financial standing, presided over a culture where apathy and breaklessness have been rewarded and tolerated, lost control of our state security and has been guilty of social engineering to an alarming degree, is certainly justified and indeed obligatory.

To engage in this debate in no way lessens the individual’s love of nation or respect for its institutions.


  but it does get a bit samey 

There is plenty to discuss such has been the destructive influence of this present government.

[Dishevelled Den]

OK - attempt number 3.

This thread is about whether Britain today is better or worse that it was when we were all younger.  At least, I think that's what it is about.

It's better.  There can't be any argument.  We are materially better off.  We have better social welfare, we have better health and health services.  We have better cars that do less damage to the environment, and more of us have them.  We have better entertainment and communications.  We even have better education (if you average it out), although I fundamentally disagree with a lot of what's happening there. 

Rights and responsibilities.  Means nothing.  We live in a "society" and we have to abide by its rules and customs, or we get out or get thrown out.  There are people in charge - there have always been and will always be people in charge.  I doubt very much if they are all working for our benefit, and they never have been.  We never had much "freedom" before, so it's pointless to bitch about our freedom being eroded.  If we did have more "freedom", what would we do with it?  We'd still pay some people to be policemen, because most of us don't want to do that job, but can see that it needs to be done. 

So we've dropped out out the economic top ten.  So?  150 years ago, we were number 1.  Thanks to India and large parts of Africa working for us.  Again, average it out and see just how much "freedom" we've lost.

Europe? What the hell's the matter there? We are geographically part of Europe.  We are ethnically part of Europe.  We've a damn sight more in common with the Germans, Slovaks and Portuguese than we have with the Chinese or the Nigerians.  So there's a bunch of tight-*rsed bureaucrats running the show at the moment - vote them out, or emigrate to China or Nigeria.  But face the facts, we aren't going to survive economically on our own.

I hate Gordon Brown, but I lived under George Brown too, and, believe me, we're better off where we are now.

That's part of the problem J - we can't.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

My word, Lizzie, you have changed. I always thought of you as a defender of individual freedom..a true conservative (small "c").

I can't be bothered to respond to all your points as I have more important things to do right now, but I will say that your statement....

"You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process."

..is utter tosh.   

Fine, as usual we will agree to disagree as I do believe  in personal freedom, but not at a cost to others. The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive and I am sorry to say very boring. 

As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression.  But of course you admitted to me you are "not up to it"! 

The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive


1/  Is that really the case E?  I thought that Nick was simply highlighting the many ways in which our establishment has been skewed by a plethora of rules and regulations - not all made by our own legisllature.  Should he refrain from this?
I don't think so.

As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression.

2/  Irrespective on whether Nick chooses to follow your direction E, does this disqualify his commenting on these matters on this forum - it certainly doesn't make him the lesser for it?

1/ Zulu in that statement alone of yours you are adopting the same assumption as Nick that anything to do with the establishment of our great country is "skewed" (or twisted) in some negative and highly detrimental way!  This is exactly what I am against, as I know this nation is not perfect, but it is by a very long way not all bad as you and Nick paints it.  This constant view point is not only negative, but destructive as well.  Make political points yes, but to adopt this constant barrage against everything that is the establishment on a car forum...........??

2/  Zulu I am commenting in this way as I am answering Nick's constant barrage against the establishment within the UK, and in context of climate change / global warming, world politics.  If he feels so strongly then he should take his campaign into the full political arena rather than continually go over and over the same negative view points on a car forum!  This I feel is especially required as Nick does not like to be challenged and resorts to put downs, such as his "utter tosh" utterance in this thread!  This is when I draw the line on debating a sensible issue and decide to use my debating time elsewhere.  This is why I am not commenting now on any climate change / globe warming thread as Nick (and a few others) has his set beliefs that we are all being lied to and/ or we are all deluded when we put across contrary beliefs.

This thread is about the state of the UK, with I and others expressing the view it is a nice place to live compared to earlier years.  Yes no doubt some, like Nick, will argue against this......fair enough............but my views are not "utter tosh"........ and I am not going to accept these personal attacks without protest!! 

My beliefs are exactly that, what I believe and live with after 56 years of comprehensive living around the UK, Europe, and the USA, brought up in a Royal Navy family, much experience, knowledge and contact.  If others do not agree with me fine..............but personal abuse is not the answer.

[jereboam]

That's part of the problem J - we can't.

Er, sorry.  We can't what ?

[Dishevelled Den]

That's part of the problem J - we can't.

Er, sorry.  We can't what ?

  excuse me - vote them out

[Dishevelled Den]

1/ Zulu in that statement alone of yours you are adopting the same assumption as Nick that anything to do with the establishment of our great country is "skewed" (or twisted) in some negative and highly detrimental way!  This is exactly what I am against, as I know this nation is not perfect, but it is by a very long way not all bad as you and Nick paints it.  This constant view point is not only negative, but destructive as well.  Make political points yes, but to adopt this constant barrage against everything that is the establishment on a car forum...........??

2/  Zulu I am commenting in this way as I am answering Nick's constant barrage against the establishment within the UK, and in context of climate change / global warming, world politics.  If he feels so strongly then he should take his campaign into the full political arena rather than continually go over and over the same negative view points on a car forum!  This I feel is especially required as Nick does not like to be challenged and resorts to put downs, such as his "utter tosh" utterance in this thread!  This is when I draw the line on debating a sensible issue and decide to use my debating time elsewhere.  This is why I am not commenting now on any climate change / globe warming thread as Nick (and a few others) has his set beliefs that we are all being lied to and/ or we are all deluded when we put across contrary beliefs.

This thread is about the state of the UK, with I and others expressing the view it is a nice place to live compared to earlier years.  Yes no doubt some, like Nick, will argue against this......fair enough............but my views are not "utter tosh"........ and I am not going to accept these personal attacks without protest!! 

My beliefs are exactly that, what I believe and live with after 56 years of comprehensive living around the UK, Europe, and the USA, brought up in a Royal Navy family, much experience, knowledge and contact.  If others do not agree with me fine..............but personal abuse is not the answer.

as I know this nation is not perfect

You can say that again E

assumption

Far from assuming anything E, I think that my comments are based on what I see to be the case - from direct observation and experience.

  constant barrage against everything that is the establishment on a car forum

Is that really the only thing I post about E? and should we take the fact that this is indeed a car forum, does that mean that the only subject allowed for discussion should be related to Omega cars?  This is the general Discussion Area after all.

he feels so strongly then he should take his campaign into the full political arena rather than continually go over and over the same negative view points on a car forum

Why should he E, as the facility of the GD area is open to such comment?

[Debs.]

  I hope Godwin`s Law is not going to be invoked by this thread!......"Reductio ad Hitlerum" and all that!

http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-behave-on-an-internet-forum

[Dishevelled Den]

I hope Godwin`s Law is not going to be invoked by this thread!......"Reductio ad Hitlerum" and all that!

http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-behave-on-an-internet-forum

It may well pop up at some stage D.

[jereboam]

I hope Godwin`s Law is not going to be invoked by this thread!......"Reductio ad Hitlerum" and all that!

http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-behave-on-an-internet-forum

  :yThe video should be compulsory viewing for all members.  Especially some of the "old hands". 

Particularly liked the post count reference.

[Dishevelled Den]

I hope Godwin`s Law is not going to be invoked by this thread!......"Reductio ad Hitlerum" and all that!

http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-behave-on-an-internet-forum

  :yThe video should be compulsory viewing for all members.  Especially some of the "old hands". 

Particularly liked the post count reference.

I am in complete agreement with you J.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I hope Godwin`s Law is not going to be invoked by this thread!......"Reductio ad Hitlerum" and all that!

http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-behave-on-an-internet-forum

Great one Debs!

I have certainly stopped now on this thread; well I have stated what I wanted to about Britain today!!

[albitz]

Sounds more like cloud cuckoo land than Britain imo.

[Dishevelled Den]

Spot on Kevin.

Plenty of people moan about rules and regs but don't actually excercise their democratic rights (hard won at that) to get things changed.

The Europe link is very tenuous. If you visit our European neighbours you will find they are "more relaxed" about life. There was a poll on the best countries to live in the world recently. Britain was 25th from memory. France, Belgium, Switzerland and Oz were up there in the top 5 or so. It was based on a wide criteria.

As I have said before, a lot of todays problems are derived from the (parents) "Can't say NO" culture of the 90's . We reap what we sowed.

Plenty of people moan about rules and regs but don't actually excercise their democratic rights (hard won at that) to get things changed.

Many of us are waiting to do this on May 5th V



Can't say NO" culture of the 90's . We reap what we sowed.

I may well agree with you there V

[STMO999]

I dont want to get involved in the debate as such, although I will say both sides have raised valid points.

The one issue that drives me bonkers these days is crime and punishment. People get the most derisory sentences for what was once considered a very serious crime. The spiral appears to be downwards, with ever more outrageous 'punishments' being invented to keep the prison population at a manageable level.

I think the party that finally shoots all the liberalists and starts building prisons would do rather well at the polls. But, of course, we are more likely to privatise the whole prison service and, therefore, make things even worse.