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[jereboam]

I'm sorry to come to this thread so late in the day, but I've been otherwise engaged, and I've only just seen the pictures. 

First off, I'm Jewish but I'm not a supporter of the state of Israel - never have been.

The pictures I've just watched on the BBC News channel show quite clearly that the Israeli soldiers were outnumbered and attacked by a group of well-prepared thugs as they were lowered to the ship's deck from helicopters.  They did not storm in firing in all directions.  The BBC pictures don't show when and how the gunfire began. 

Once again, the word "disproportionate" is being hurled around.  Please tell me what is a "proportionate" reponse to being attacked and beaten with an iron bar? 

And please tell me what motivates anyone to attack an armed soldier, especially an Israeli armed soldier, with an iron bar? 

As for the blockade, I feell that the Israelis are perfectly justified in attempting to prevent uninspected cargos from reaching the ports of Gaza.  Gaza is a community run by a group who want the state of Israel wiped off the map.  As far as I know, there doesn't seem to be any humanitarian crisis whereby people are dying of starvation in Gaza, and the population there are not under attack from Israel. 

It is regrettable that 9 or more of the contingent on the ship have been killed, but I can't see how Israel can be made out to be the aggressors given what we have been shown so far. 

It's always the same - these people continually take pot-shots at a more powerful state, and then cry foul when there is retaliation.  Do you carefully remove the mosquito biting your arm to avoid hurting it?  And does the world condemn you when you do the sensible thing and squish the mosquito?  There always seems to be a long, long queue of people lining up to have a go at Israel every time they step out of line.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

It is great to see how this subject has continued to be debated, even though some feel the thread should never have been started!!

In the previous postings I and others have made the position clear regarding:

a) Israeli commandos illegally storming Turkish flagged vessels in International waters

b) Fully suited, booted and armed professional commandos launching a raid on ships crewed by an international mix of politicians, a TurkishTV crew, journalists, and assorted male and female civilians from all walks of life who feel strongly about ensuring aid reaches beleagured Gaza (if you missed it read the UN report on the current situation there in my link) and at least basic human rights are upheld.

c) The continuing blockade of Gaza by Israel in contrevention of the UN

d) The vast imbalance of armed power between Israel and the Palestinians (read the casualty and other facts listed in my link)

e) International opinion that has considered the facts, as we have, surrounding Israel and Gaza over decades and roundly condemed Israel.

f) Israel consider that they disenenged from occupying Gaza in 2005, but the UN consider they still do occupy this Palensitian terrority with the enforcement of a land, sea and air blockade.  Israel have publicly stated they will also build homes for Israeli's in Gaza.

g) Israel is the world's 11th most powerful military force, and by far the regions greatest miltary power, with possibly a nuclear capability, although Israel refuses to disclose whether or not that capabilty exists.

All the time Israel tries to control Gaza and the Palestinians with an aggressive stance, and yes the Palestinians fighting against this, the situation will remain unresolved.  Right at the start of this thread I mentioned how Israel is stupid (or arrogant) enough to commit blunders on the international stage that give it instant bad PR.  Well, regardless of the pro's and cons that all of us could argue about until pigs start flying, this they do repeatedly.  The last episode was about the illegal use of British passports.

 

[cem_devecioglu]

It is great to see how this subject has continued to be debated, even though some feel the thread should never have been started!!

In the previous postings I and others have made the position clear regarding:

a) Israeli commandos illegally storming Turkish flagged vessels in International waters

b) Fully suited, booted and armed professional commandos launching a raid on ships crewed by an international mix of politicians, a TurkishTV crew, journalists, and assorted male and female civilians from all walks of life who feel strongly about ensuring aid reaches beleagured Gaza (if you missed it read the UN report on the current situation there in my link) and at least basic human rights are upheld.

c) The continuing blockade of Gaza by Israel in contrevention of the UN

d) The vast imbalance of armed power between Israel and the Palestinians (read the casualty and other facts listed in my link)

e) International opinion that has considered the facts, as we have, surrounding Israel and Gaza over decades and roundly condemed Israel.

f) Israel consider that they disenenged from occupying Gaza in 2005, but the UN consider they still do occupy this Palensitian terrority with the enforcement of a land, sea and air blockade.  Israel have publicly stated they will also build homes for Israeli's in Gaza.

g) Israel is the world's 11th most powerful military force, and by far the regions greatest miltary power, with possibly a nuclear capability, although Israel refuses to disclose whether or not that capabilty exists.

All the time Israel tries to control Gaza and the Palestinians with an aggressive stance, and yes the Palestinians fighting against this, the situation will remain unresolved.  Right at the start of this thread I mentioned how Israel is stupid (or arrogant) enough to commit blunders on the international stage that give it instant bad PR.  Well, regardless of the pro's and cons that all of us could argue about until pigs start flying, this they do repeatedly.  The last episode was about the illegal use of British passports.

 

Well said Lizzie

a) even thats a reason to declare war for any country..if that was a UK ship what would you do ?

b) there were children and women..you may ask why but they come with their families and think israel is a civilised country

and a note, would you stay calm waiting the armed commandos to do what they want..what the hell they were doing on our ships .. pirates

and yeah I feel now sad for the commandos not for the civils dead..

I advise them next time try our commandos..not civils..

and sadly I see many people neglect what has happened in the past.. if you choose to close your eyes then do it..

and I must add, there will be many consequences that sum of them I know and some of them cant be estimated..but in either case israel wont be happy..

[Banjax]

If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? 

[STMO999]

Nice to see things being evened out this morning. China refused to censure N. Korea and the US is refusing to censure Israel.

World order has been restored.

[eliteomegaman]

This extract from The Times this morning says it all  ........

Before the Gaza Freedom Flotilla steamed out of Cyprus laden with thousands of tons of aid for the blockaded Gaza Strip, some of the passengers on a Turkish-flagged cruise ship spoke to news crews filming their departure.

“We are now waiting for one of two good things — either to reach Gaza or achieve martyrdom,”    said one woman in a headscarf. After a night of bloodshed on the high seas on Monday, at least nine of her fellow passengers, most of them believed to be Turks, had achieved the latter.

How interesting  :-?

[Lizzie_Zoom]

If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? 

Why does everyone not see that??

[Lizzie_Zoom]

This extract from The Times this morning says it all  ........

Before the Gaza Freedom Flotilla steamed out of Cyprus laden with thousands of tons of aid for the blockaded Gaza Strip, some of the passengers on a Turkish-flagged cruise ship spoke to news crews filming their departure.

“We are now waiting for one of two good things — either to reach Gaza or achieve martyrdom,”    said one woman in a headscarf. After a night of bloodshed on the high seas on Monday, at least nine of her fellow passengers, most of them believed to be Turks, had achieved the latter.

How interesting  :-?

Yes, because they knew how predictable Israel is in carrying out illegal acts of war, and how as much as they wished the humanitarian cargo would reach Gaza for the beleagured Palensitines, they understood the Israeli's would take the type of action they did. 

Rather like those who manned the shipping conveys to the people of the UK fighting against tyranny in WW2  expected to be attacked by German forces although they sincerely hoped they were not!!

[Chris_H]

Nice to see things being evened out this morning. China refused to censure N. Korea and the US is refusing to censure Israel.

World order has been restored.

I see you in a new light after your contributions to this thread Steve!

Hot, but not too hot eh?

[eliteomegaman]

If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? 

Why does everyone not see that??

Do me a bloody favour & read my posts 

They KNEW the marines were coming as they had prior warnings for OVER A WEEK AGO

Also ships nowadays have radar! The IDF boarded the ships to take them to the port NOT to kill them 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Nice to see things being evened out this morning. China refused to censure N. Korea and the US is refusing to censure Israel.

World order has been restored.

I see you in a new light after your contributions to this thread Steve!

Hot, but not too hot eh?

Yep and Steve has hit it on the head with that wonderfully cynical observation, which means the Gaza and Israeli situation is destined to continue to roll on..and on......and on....................!!

Whichever side you 'bat for', this is not good for anyone!

[Banjax]

If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? 

Why does everyone not see that??

Israel have a well oiled media spin machine that quickly suppresses all but their own version of events I suppose Liz  :-/
This is Israel attacking a European sovereign state in international waters....it doesn't matter if the flag the ship carried was a Union Jack or a Crescent Moon and Star (sorry Cem - I don't know the name of the Turkish flag) - surely we can't allow this atrocity to be swept under the carpet? 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? 

Why does everyone not see that??

Israel have a well oiled media spin machine that quickly suppresses all but their own version of events I suppose Liz  :-/
This is Israel attacking a European sovereign state in international waters....it doesn't matter if the flag the ship carried was a Union Jack or a Crescent Moon and Star (sorry Cem - I don't know the name of the Turkish flag) - surely we can't allow this atrocity to be swept under the carpet? 

It is hoped that enough of the international community will put pressure on that to stop this from happening, but the signs are not good with the USA already seemingly taking a pro-Israel stance

[Nickbat]

If armed Israeli commandos descended on me in the middle of the night, I'm not sure my first instinct would be to put the kettle on and invite them in...what with their usual "shoot first....deny all knowledge later" policy. So yes, they were attacked.....interesting that this flotilla of mercenaries, smugglers and terrorists didn't see fit to bring any guns along - maybe, just maybe they were delivering aid to Gaza? 

Why does everyone not see that??

Israel have a well oiled media spin machine that quickly suppresses all but their own version of events I suppose Liz  :-/
This is Israel attacking a European sovereign state in international waters....it doesn't matter if the flag the ship carried was a Union Jack or a Crescent Moon and Star (sorry Cem - I don't know the name of the Turkish flag) - surely we can't allow this atrocity to be swept under the carpet? 

It is hoped that enough of the international community will put pressure on that to stop this from happening, but the signs are not good with the USA already seemingly taking a pro-Israel stance

Well, at least it's a balance to your anti-Israel stance.

[Sixstring]

I think the ONLY questions that have not really been asked/answered are:

1) were they really only delivering food/aid, if so, an independant observer from the UN can verify all this, if this is genuinely the case, then Israel KNEW any attempt at boarding may be met with limited resistance, and surely boarding with commandoes armed to the teeth was a bad idea, just sending an independant observer FIRST was the way to go??
2) This was heavily publicised, witha lot of Turkish nationals on board. Any sane person from Israel would see that the action taken would bring almost complete condemnation from the outside world, but they went ahead anyway.
3) If, as reported, the flotilla of ships had been notified earlier on, and seen it all coming via radar, and they had nothing to hide, they would have heaved to, and allowed themselves to be boarded easily, after all, they were in INTERNATIONAL waters, and doing nothing wrong.....
4) No-body had to be killed, just "arrested", WHY??
5) Afterwards, why did Israel just take all the ships to its own port and intern all crew and passengers? surely they cannot do that if the ships are in INTERNATIONAL waters, otherwise it is counted as PIRACY???
6) What gives Israel the right to  stop any person giving humanitarian aid to a "supposed" blockaded part of the country anyway? are there not laws preventing this signed by all in a treaty? (Human rights act 1974)

No sides taken here, as a bit confused, but cannot see the events are justified in any way, and if they have legally done this, surely they should have informed the UN or somebody in the world similar of their intentions, and "legalized" themselves somewhat? :-/