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[derry lad]

regardless of where northern ireland is,the murder of 14 innocent unarmed civillians is tragic,and to wait almost 40 years on an apology and admission of guilt is unacceptable and shamefull.

[Nickbat]

regardless of where northern ireland is,the murder of 14 innocent unarmed civilians is tragic,and to wait almost 40 years on an apology and admission of guilt is unacceptable and shamefull.

I agree that it was indeed a terrible episode and it is shameful that it has taken so long for the facts to be established.

Mind you, while we're on the subject, it is shameful that the IRA has not apologised for its murders over the period. Shameful, too, that McGuiness holds office, IMHO. 

[Marks DTM Calib]

Its bad but, I personally don't care.....its before my time and similar atrocities sadly occur every year the world over.

Humans are not infallible and mistakes will be made.....that will always be a fact of life.

What I do care about is spending such a stupid amount of money on an inquiry.

[steve_daly]

Rufus, with respect, under your reasoning, it could be said that Australia belongs to the Aborigines, New Zealand belongs to the Maoris and that the USA belongs to the Native Americans... Now, all this may be theoretically, morally - and even legally - true, but what happened in the 1800s is irrelevant in 2010.

My own view is that digging up the past is rarely a solution. It tends to cause more disquiet, not less.

We live in the present.

 

Irrelevent, far from it. We are what we are today because of what happened. Australia is what it is today because of the British colonizing and taking the land from the indiginous people, as with America, New Zealand etc etc. Yes all this land does belong to the native people. Of course only a dreamer would imagine land ever being returned, but you cannot say otherwise, these great countries that they are today because of how Europeans rampaged around the globe taking what they wanted from where they wanted.

You are right, digging up the past is no solution, but that doesn't mean we should allow future generations to forget what costs were incurred along the way.

My statement was simple, if the land was returned to the Irish, the troubles of Northern Ireland wouldn't exist. An impossibility nowdays I guess, but true none the less. Should I or anyone else feel guilty for what happened 200/400 years ago, of course not that is just stupid.

Our kids should be tought about what went on in our pasts, our past is not irrelevent in the slightest. How many of your kids have learned of Oliver Cromwell at school? But I bet they never come home telling of how he decimated the Irish. Or indeed the great Sir Francis Drake, pioneer, explorer, pirate and slave trader.

Would Hitler's campain been so irrelevent had he succeded? I think not, but the English are quick enough to condem and hate for what he tried to do, but not quick enough to remind ourselves that we were doing just the same a few hundred years earlier.

Probably gone slightly off topic there I guess. My parents were both Irish, their parents, theirs before them, on and on so perhaps a little of the original Irish man is in me and cannot let go. But one thing I am not doing is 'giving Irish history Wiki lessons 

And perhaps the IRA feel that their terror campain, is today, irrelevant. Hense no appology.

[albitz]

So, what the British did 200 years ago is very relevant, but what the IRA did 20 years ago isnt relevant at all? :-/ :-/

[steve_daly]

I'm not saying that, but perhaps the IRA have the same views as Nickbat?

It's all in the past and irrelevant?

[Nickbat]

I'm not saying that, but perhaps the IRA have the same views as Nickbat?

It's all in the past and irrelevant?

Huh? :-?

I merely said that what happened 200 years ago is irrelevant, a point upon which we seem to agree when you say "...if the land was returned to the Irish, the troubles of Northern Ireland wouldn't exist.... An impossibility nowdays I guess". Indeed! If it is an impossibility, as you say, then it shows that no amount of arguing about the distant past can have any effect on matters as they currently exist. If they have no effect, then their relevance must surely be questionable.

I assume that you believe, as most would, that the Bloody Sunday Inquiry was relevant, given that the event occurred only 30 years ago. If you believe that, then logically you must believe that an admission of guilt/apology by the IRA would be similarly relevant.   

[albitz]

Maybe not too many U2 fans on here but this is worth persevering with just too hear the speech at 3.45, it brought tears to my eyes the first time I heard it.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9c4lLnY0rA[/media]

[albitz]

Any chance of an enquiry,and sincere apology for the other Bloody Sunday, it doesnt seem to get as much publicity as the first one for some reason.
http://www.iraatrocities.fsnet.co.uk/enniskillen.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/northern_ireland/2001/provisional_ira/1987.stm

[Dishevelled Den]

regardless of where northern ireland is,the murder of 14 innocent unarmed civillians is tragic,and to wait almost 40 years on an apology and admission of guilt is unacceptable and shamefull.

I can certainly see that DL and accept your position.  Perhaps the political carrot of 'the hand of history' ensured that the Saville enquiry was eventually ordered by Mr Blair, however the outcome won't bring any of those back.

It's tragic that anyone had to die during the course of these 'troubles' but die they did - in their droves.

Personally I'm not looking for an apology from any one for the injuries I received during my time there or for the horrific deaths of many of my colleagues - it was a job, albeit a dangerous one, that simply had to be done otherwise mayhem would have ensued.

It is important to remember however that Northern Ireland at the time was a country as close to civil war as we're likely to see for a long time in Western Europe and in helping to prevent that I certainly don’t have anything to apologise for.

[Sixstring]

I, the same as many others, did as I was told (ordered) without question or complaint. However, it is my considered opinion that had I and all the others NOT been there in NI in the time we were, then total mayhem (as Zulu said) on the streets would have resulted, and My role as far as I was concerned, was "peace keeper", not adversary to the Northern Irish people, who were for the most part lovely , kind, people, who I have visited a few times since and become good friends with. Yes, there were the exceptions, a few hard hearted, opinionated, ruthless people who only wanted to cause pain and suffering, but these were in the minority, and most were caught, or known about, or even thwarted in their attempts to kill or maim innocent people.
"Bloody Sunday" was wrong for a lot of reasons, but you really needed to be there to appreciate the futility and sometimes confusion of the armed forces, when the bullet with your name on it could arrive at any time from the most trusted of sources, or the most safe places, and you were told "you may not fire back unless  your life is in direct risk, or you are given permission to do so by a superior officer".
The supposed "shoot to kill" policy was complete rubbish. Many times you were under fire and COULD not fire back, because you were not allowed to.
Sorry, maybe you shouldn't debate this argument so fully unless you had been there, it puts a real spin on your opinion then.
 May I also state that this is only my opinion, and I am not trying to stop any other person having theirs, or criticising them for doing so.

[Dishevelled Den]

Rufus, with respect, under your reasoning, it could be said that Australia belongs to the Aborigines, New Zealand belongs to the Maoris and that the USA belongs to the Native Americans... Now, all this may be theoretically, morally - and even legally - true, but what happened in the 1800s is irrelevant in 2010.

My own view is that digging up the past is rarely a solution. It tends to cause more disquiet, not less.

We live in the present.

 

Irrelevent, far from it. We are what we are today because of what happened. Australia is what it is today because of the British colonizing and taking the land from the indiginous people, as with America, New Zealand etc etc. Yes all this land does belong to the native people. Of course only a dreamer would imagine land ever being returned, but you cannot say otherwise, these great countries that they are today because of how Europeans rampaged around the globe taking what they wanted from where they wanted.

You are right, digging up the past is no solution, but that doesn't mean we should allow future generations to forget what costs were incurred along the way.

My statement was simple, if the land was returned to the Irish, the troubles of Northern Ireland wouldn't exist. An impossibility nowdays I guess, but true none the less. Should I or anyone else feel guilty for what happened 200/400 years ago, of course not that is just stupid.

Our kids should be tought about what went on in our pasts, our past is not irrelevent in the slightest. How many of your kids have learned of Oliver Cromwell at school? But I bet they never come home telling of how he decimated the Irish. Or indeed the great Sir Francis Drake, pioneer, explorer, pirate and slave trader.

Would Hitler's campain been so irrelevent had he succeded? I think not, but the English are quick enough to condem and hate for what he tried to do, but not quick enough to remind ourselves that we were doing just the same a few hundred years earlier.

Probably gone slightly off topic there I guess. My parents were both Irish, their parents, theirs before them, on and on so perhaps a little of the original Irish man is in me and cannot let go. But one thing I am not doing is 'giving Irish history Wiki lessons 

And perhaps the IRA feel that their terror campain, is today, irrelevant. Hense no appology.

This is all very laudable Rufus but like most intellectualising your argument clings to the theoretical at the expense of the practical.

Of course history is there to teach us many things - but the lessons are seldom heeded because of the 'hear and now'

To attempt to suggest that there would have been no conflict in Northern Ireland had the land been returned to the Irish is illogical, as no one could possibly say that with any degree of conviction without having powers that allowed them to see what may have been.

Ireland was a tribal nation split into four provinces each having autonomy in terms of leadership.  It was a bellicose country as a whole throughout history the citizens of which frequently fought each other; it didn't require intervention from others to excite the natives

When you muse over the return of the 'occupied' lands to the Irish you should also consider that there would be a number of people who would object - whatever the period in time - at this transfer.  In this context your assertions are invalid as you, or anyone for that matter, can't second guess history.

Finally you shouldn't forget that there was a civil war in Ireland - amongst the native Irish and those simmering tensions are reflected to this day in the political structures and sentiments found in the Republic of Ireland.

[bertiecbx550]

I`d like to ask is the I.R.A. gonna hold an inquiry and apologise for all the innocents they killed?? Warrington,Belfast,Birmingham....