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[albitz]

Agreed.

[Banjax]

Nickbat, surely no change in hours but an increase in productive (ie daytime visits, safety talks etc) hours means that less officers will be available for night-shift, which absolutely has an impact on safety? 

The LFB states: "The changes would significantly increase the productive time available during the day shift for essential training and community fire safety work to be arranged."

BJ, you can't conclude from that statement that the result would be less officers on the night shift.

It's a complete non sequitur. :-?

I can't see how you don't see that Nick, where are these "magical" extra working hours coming from then if it has no impact on service elsewhere? True nightshift will often spend much of the time asleep, but surely the point is that they are there and able to be deployed at a moments notice? I'd rather a fire service was used for putting out fires and cutting people from RTAs than showing Mrs Miggins up the road how to switch off her TV - leave that to retired or injured firemen  :-?

[Psychoca]

I personally feel that fire figters should be banned from strike action...  I have a very poor view of strike action in any industry, besides the fact that their action could result in people dying.

To strike of the Bonfire night period is completely irresponsible and outrageous...

The actions of not rescuing people from the water due to lack of training I find terrible...  For many years they have had to deal with all kinds of rescues, ranging from serious car accidents to rail and water rescues, surely every crew should have a minimum of 2 trained for water rescue and methods of testing whether rail lines are live or not....

I beleive part of the reason for longer day shifts is to give the opportunity for more training..

[Nickbat]

Nickbat, surely no change in hours but an increase in productive (ie daytime visits, safety talks etc) hours means that less officers will be available for night-shift, which absolutely has an impact on safety? 

The LFB states: "The changes would significantly increase the productive time available during the day shift for essential training and community fire safety work to be arranged."

BJ, you can't conclude from that statement that the result would be less officers on the night shift.

It's a complete non sequitur. :-?

I can't see how you don't see that Nick, where are these "magical" extra working hours coming from then if it has no impact on service elsewhere? True nightshift will often spend much of the time asleep, but surely the point is that they are there and able to be deployed at a moments notice? I'd rather a fire service was used for putting out fires and cutting people from RTAs than showing Mrs Miggins up the road how to switch off her TV - leave that to retired or injured firemen  :-?

Huh?
They're just changing the times of the shifts, there's no magic involved.

[Banjax]

Nickbat, surely no change in hours but an increase in productive (ie daytime visits, safety talks etc) hours means that less officers will be available for night-shift, which absolutely has an impact on safety? 

The LFB states: "The changes would significantly increase the productive time available during the day shift for essential training and community fire safety work to be arranged."

BJ, you can't conclude from that statement that the result would be less officers on the night shift.

It's a complete non sequitur. :-?

I can't see how you don't see that Nick, where are these "magical" extra working hours coming from then if it has no impact on service elsewhere? True nightshift will often spend much of the time asleep, but surely the point is that they are there and able to be deployed at a moments notice? I'd rather a fire service was used for putting out fires and cutting people from RTAs than showing Mrs Miggins up the road how to switch off her TV - leave that to retired or injured firemen  :-?

Huh?
They're just changing the times of the shifts, there's no magic involved.

are there plans for more or less fire fighter hours at night, and if its less, you dont think that will impact response times? 

I dont live in London Nick, I'm just trying to look out for you guys that do 

[Nickbat]

Nickbat, surely no change in hours but an increase in productive (ie daytime visits, safety talks etc) hours means that less officers will be available for night-shift, which absolutely has an impact on safety? 

The LFB states: "The changes would significantly increase the productive time available during the day shift for essential training and community fire safety work to be arranged."

BJ, you can't conclude from that statement that the result would be less officers on the night shift.

It's a complete non sequitur. :-?

I can't see how you don't see that Nick, where are these "magical" extra working hours coming from then if it has no impact on service elsewhere? True nightshift will often spend much of the time asleep, but surely the point is that they are there and able to be deployed at a moments notice? I'd rather a fire service was used for putting out fires and cutting people from RTAs than showing Mrs Miggins up the road how to switch off her TV - leave that to retired or injured firemen  :-?

Huh?
They're just changing the times of the shifts, there's no magic involved.

are there plans for more or less fire fighter hours at night, and if its less, you dont think that will impact response times? 

I dont live in London Nick, I'm just trying to look out for you guys that do 

I don't think there is any less cover, it's just the shift times that are changing by an hour or so. But, as the LFB says, current timings mean a shift change in the middle of the rush hour, which adversely affects performance.

[Proz]

Why is it so important now all of a sudden to change the shifts ??
Due to changing over in rush hour ? 
Its been that way for years and years so why the big panic now .
I didnt realise that having change over in a fire station was so badly affected by the traffic outside 

[Nickbat]

Why is it so important now all of a sudden to change the shifts ??
Due to changing over in rush hour ? 
Its been that way for years and years so why the big panic now .
I didnt realise that having change over in a fire station was so badly affected by the traffic outside 

They (the LFB) have been trying for five years. Keep up!


As for the rush hour, it's nothing to do with the traffic but, as the LFB points out, "The new start and finish times would also mean less disruption to services during a crucially busy period of the day." 

[Proz]

Why is it so important now all of a sudden to change the shifts ??
Due to changing over in rush hour ? 
Its been that way for years and years so why the big panic now .
I didnt realise that having change over in a fire station was so badly affected by the traffic outside 

They (the LFB) have been trying for five years. Keep up!

I'll try 
So does everyone else that starts work during rush hour get there shifts changed  :-?
Not a bad idea really cause then there wouldn't be a rush hour 

[Amigo]

1) when they refused to go into the stations to help until someone could guarantee it was safe to do so. And a police inspector testified that even though he was standing on the lines to prove they werent live, the firemen still refused to proceed to the bombed trains until they had official confirmation of the fact.The extra 30 minutes that took must have seemed like an eternity to the victims awaiting help.
 
2) There was also the recent publicity about the case where 2 of them refused to take any action to try to save people from drowning - who were reportedly begging them to save them - because they hadnt had the appropriate training.

my limited understanding of such things leads me to surmise that

1) had they gone in and there been an accident due to live lines, or other safety issues, that they should by protocol, have confirmed before entry,  they would have been liable due to negligence.... both for themselves, and any member of public victims.

2) unless trained to do so, they are not insured to do so, so no death benefits if they risk their lives and lose the gamble....     explain that to a widow and kids faced with the bills for a funeral, and no insurance pay out because they didn't follow procedure.

and i'm told, you better believe that they would have been hung out to dry....    quite apart from the government and insurers being tightwads that like to wriggle out of any liability....    it's also one way of trying to enforce adherence to protocol, to maximise their safety, and that of their "clients"

risk their lives sometimes...

virtually every day..... 

have several friends as part timers, and a few as ex full timers.... 

if you're committed enough to risk your life for others on a daily basis, something has to be pretty out of whack for you to decide to leave.   

and sorry, a bit touchy maybe, but i find it offensive when people marginalise the "risk your life" factor in any service , be it police, fire, ambulance or armed services.

and that's what i feel you're doing.



maybe you didn't mean it that way, i certainly hope so, but that's how it came across
 
what choice do they have really.??   i find the imperious decision making process of their employers equally as demeaning and offensive...  it's not like THEY're the one;s risking a burning building falling on them......   they always seem to put pressure on such people, relying on their commitment and devotion to saving others, to let them get away with rolling them over a barrel...

frankly much the same has traditionally been foisted on nurses, police officers and armed forces personnel.


were i in charge, i'd reduce MP's salaries to the same sort of  levels as firefighters , nurses etc,  after all they're only public servants....     or raise that of the worthier sorts to the same as MP's

and i would cheerfully pay a penny more tax in the pound to fund such a thing.

Exactly. Guy.

[Amigo]

Wait until you've been cut out of the wreckage with your feet & ankles snapped & bent the wrong way under the seat, the pedals buried in your shins, the dash & bulkhead buried in your knees, your nose broken, face all smashed & cut by going through the windscreen only to have the steering wheel save you going through the screen but breaking 5 ribs in the process. The engine is revving it's tits off & you can't get out or reach to switch off. ....will it go bang? Thankfully it did'nt. I've been there. Unless you have i suggest you think before deciding what these guys & girls should be paid & thier working conditions. What the hell do you know?
    One day you might be glad to see them.

[Proz]

Wait until you've been cut out of the wreckage with your feet & ankles snapped & bent the wrong way under the seat, the pedals buried in your shins, the dash & bulkhead buried in your knees, your nose broken, face all smashed & cut by going through the windscreen only to have the steering wheel save you going through the screen but breaking 5 ribs in the process. The engine is revving it's tits off & you can't get out or reach to switch off. ....will it go bang? Thankfully it did'nt. I've been there. Unless you have i suggest you think before deciding what these guys & girls should be paid & thier working conditions. What the hell do you know?
    One day you might be glad to see them.

Couldn't agree more 

[Nickbat]

Wait until you've been cut out of the wreckage with your feet & ankles snapped & bent the wrong way under the seat, the pedals buried in your shins, the dash & bulkhead buried in your knees, your nose broken, face all smashed & cut by going through the windscreen only to have the steering wheel save you going through the screen but breaking 5 ribs in the process. The engine is revving it's tits off & you can't get out or reach to switch off. ....will it go bang? Thankfully it did'nt. I've been there. Unless you have i suggest you think before deciding what these guys & girls should be paid & thier working conditions. What the hell do you know?
    One day you might be glad to see them.

It's got nothing to do with what they do. The same could be said for police, military, doctors, surgeons and many others. They are paid by us, the taxpayer. We have a perfect right in a democracy to express our opinions. They have a job to do and, by and large, they do it well. However, this is not about their pay, it is about their union refusing, over a period of five years, to accept a small change in shift patterns.

Although doctors, paramedics, ambulance crews, firemen etc. are on the front line, it does not give them the right to dictate the terms of their employment.

Simples.

[geoffr70]

Wait until you've been cut out of the wreckage with your feet & ankles snapped & bent the wrong way under the seat, the pedals buried in your shins, the dash & bulkhead buried in your knees, your nose broken, face all smashed & cut by going through the windscreen only to have the steering wheel save you going through the screen but breaking 5 ribs in the process. The engine is revving it's tits off & you can't get out or reach to switch off. ....will it go bang? Thankfully it did'nt. I've been there. Unless you have i suggest you think before deciding what these guys & girls should be paid & thier working conditions. What the hell do you know?
    One day you might be glad to see them.

Couldn't agree more 

Me also!

I sometimes get the impression, from people who I talk to, and generally, that they are envious to some degree about the working conditions. Yes you could argue the working conditions are good, but there are also many negatives, that other jobs also have which has already been pointed out.

Many people couldn't and wouldn't do the job. I bet most people haven't got a clue about the job of a modern day firefighter, the skills and knowledge they have, and the responsibilities they have. The workload is vast, people seem to think we sit round the station all day watching tv and drinking tea.

I'm nothing to do with LFB, so can't directly comment. If both parties, employer and employee, sign a contract stipulating certain conditions, then employer tries to force employee to change conditions under pain of losing job, then that is just underhand and disgraceful.

Alot of the time, people aren't interested in 'fire safety advice'. They just want to see whatever they can get for free like smoke alarms and deepfat fryers. The boxes from the dffs are taken though so people can't them sell them a they sometimes do! Through labours vast job creation exercise over recent years, there are fire safety departments now who conduct inpections on licensed premises, which wouldv'e otherwise been dine by firefighters. This time has been freed up for firefighters to do community safety work, which as LFBs figures suggest, has worked well. But i don't see where all this extra time is coming from as there are no loads of responsibilities, which take time to train and plan for.

I think the firefighters are just the latest group in the firing line of the public, some of which are envious of the conditions (they must think it's some sort of Utopia!), whipped up by the media. It might be better if people concentrate on themselves and their own lives instead of concerning themselves with other people like this nasty socitey encourages us to do.

[geoffr70]

Wait until you've been cut out of the wreckage with your feet & ankles snapped & bent the wrong way under the seat, the pedals buried in your shins, the dash & bulkhead buried in your knees, your nose broken, face all smashed & cut by going through the windscreen only to have the steering wheel save you going through the screen but breaking 5 ribs in the process. The engine is revving it's tits off & you can't get out or reach to switch off. ....will it go bang? Thankfully it did'nt. I've been there. Unless you have i suggest you think before deciding what these guys & girls should be paid & thier working conditions. What the hell do you know?
    One day you might be glad to see them.

It's got nothing to do with what they do. The same could be said for police, military, doctors, surgeons and many others. They are paid by us, the taxpayer. We have a perfect right in a democracy to express our opinions. They have a job to do and, by and large, they do it well. However, this is not about their pay, it is about their union refusing, over a period of five years, to accept a small change in shift patterns.

Although doctors, paramedics, ambulance crews, firemen etc. are on the front line, it does not give them the right to dictate the terms of their employment.

Simples.

Equally, it doesn't mean their employer can forcefully impose terms of employment under pain of losing their jobs.

Simples