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Author Topic: Going to and from 'meets' alone ???  (Read 2411 times)

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Jusme

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Going to and from 'meets' alone ???
« on: 24 November 2010, 12:53:11 »

As reported over the past couple of weeks in Motorcycle News, headed: ' Group Riders warned they can expect harsh treatment'.

On a couple of occasions now, friends who have enjoyed a day out riding their bikes, have been dragged out of bed early in the morning and charged with, 'causing death by dangerous driving'.

The reason. One of the group has sadly been involved in a fatal accident.
The report states:
A reader who faced prison after a friend was killed during a group ride has warned five riders involved in a similar tragedy to expect harsh treatment.
Paul Backhouse 50 was found guilty of dangerous driving after taking part in a group ride in which one of his four companions was killed in 2006.
5 riders in North Yorkshire are currently on bail faced with being charged with causing death by dangerous driving following an accident in which two friends died in August.
Backhouse maintains he and his companions were merely riding in a group and took no part in the accident, but in 2008 he and his friends were found guilty.
He said: " I feel for these lads and know what they are going through. I would like to offer some assistance, tell them what to expect and how to avoid the mistakes we made. Our mate decided to do a wheelie. He pulled away from the group and was 300 yards in front of us. He then lost control and was tragically killed.
We got walked all over in court - we were like fish out of water. We were found guilty of dangerous driving and given a 4 year ban followed by an extended test, as well as 280 hours community service, a 9 month prison sentence suspended for 2 years, and ordered to pay £1250 costs. I felt let down by the legal system.
" Like Backhouse and his friends, the riders in the North Yorkshire case were detained in dawn raids".
He added: The police took all of our gear as evidence. It was a test case and it's now in the law books.
" We all admitted we were speeding that day, but the judgement was that we were encouraging the lad who was killed ".
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I am still trying to figure out how my style of driving or riding forces someone else to drive/ride in a way that could end up with them having an accident ? Or is this just the powers that be putting another nail in the coffin of motorcycling ?
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Under-steer is when the front of the car hits the wall, and over-steer is when the rear of the car hits the wall.
Power is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how much of the wall you take with you.

Dishevelled Den

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Re: Going to and from 'meets' alone ???
« Reply #1 on: 24 November 2010, 12:58:27 »

It would be difficult to comment without seeing the evidence presented J.

Is there a link to the specific incident?
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Jimbob

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Re: Going to and from 'meets' alone ???
« Reply #2 on: 24 November 2010, 13:00:00 »

Suspect there is a lot more to that than reported above.

Jusme

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Re: Going to and from 'meets' alone ???
« Reply #3 on: 24 November 2010, 13:11:06 »

Just copied the report in the paper....  :-/
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Under-steer is when the front of the car hits the wall, and over-steer is when the rear of the car hits the wall.
Power is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how much of the wall you take with you.

bluey

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Re: Going to and from 'meets' alone ???
« Reply #4 on: 24 November 2010, 13:52:31 »

The report in a local paper gave a different view.

FOUR bikers, who were said to have ridden at high speed across Yorkshire before the ride ended in the death of one of their friends, were given suspended prison sentences yesterday and disqualified from driving.

Judge Stephen Ashurst gave them nine months prison sentences suspended for two years and banned them for four years.

He said the evidence at their three-week trial at York Crown Court last year showed they had taken part in "deliberate competitive
driving".

Paul Backhouse 48, of Thorpe Audlin, Pontefract, Kevin Moreton, 50, of Ferrybridge, Peter Jackson, 48, of Knottingley and Andre Holland, 35, of South Kirby, Pontefract, were convicted of dangerous driving on a journey from South Milford over the Wolds to Whitby, returning via Scarborough and Norton.

The jury acquitted them of causing death by dangerous driving after Martin Firth, 33, of Beal near Goole, lost control of his high performance bike on Sherburn-in-Elmet bypass, left the road and crashed into trees. The jury could not reach a verdict on a third charge of dangerous driving.

Backhouse, Moreton and Holland were also sentenced to carry out 250 hours of unpaid work and ordered to pay £1,250 towards prosecution costs. Jackson, who draws incapacity benefit, was given a 12-months supervision order and ordered to pay £250 costs.

The prosecution alleged that Mr Firth died after all five riders encouraged each other to carry out wheelies at up to 100mph. Backhouse, Jackson, Moreton and Firth were wearing high visibility jackets with the words Two Wheels Advanced Training School across the back.

Andrew Dallas, prosecuting, told the judge he had been asked by the Coroner to make him aware that Backhouse and Moreton were also involved in a collision on the B1222 in July, 2004 in which another motorcyclist travelling at over 100mph hit a Jaguar head-on killing himself and the car driver.

Mr Dallas said Backhouse, who fractured his ankle after hitting debris from the Jaguar crash, admitted to police that he had been travelling at 80 to 90 mph. He ended up in a field 122 metres away.

In mitigation, Andrew Thompson, said the death of Mr Firth had weighed very heavily on the minds of the four defendants.

He told Judge Ashurst that Backhouse and Moreton had not previously met the motorcyclist who died in the 2004 collision. Referring to the 145-mile drive across Yorkshire, he added: "None of them accept that they were doing wheelies anywhere."

Chief Superintendent Ali Higgins, of North Yorkshire Police, said the prosecution was a message to motorcyclists who put themselves and others in danger. "Don't come to North Yorkshire or you will face the full force of the law.

"This tragedy highlights the horrendous and, ultimately, fatal disregard some motorists have for their safety and that of other road users.

"The group went out that day with an element of arrogance and contempt for the law and total disregard for safety, with one of them paying the ultimate price as a result of those actions."


Seems odd to me that the prosecution should allege they were encouraging each other and pulling wheelies at some point or another.  Either they were seen doing it or have some sort of disclosure from one of them.  That report above doesn't really give any light on the matter. 

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Debs.

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Re: Going to and from 'meets' alone ???
« Reply #5 on: 24 November 2010, 13:57:00 »

I see  lot of groups of riders on the roads here in Snowdonia; there does seem to be 'peer-pressure' to make considerably-faster (and often dangerously-risky) progress when riding in large groups.
Not just bikers though; as the same applies to 'cruises' of yoofs in their Saxo`s etc.

In the hundreds of laws enacted by successive, power-acquisitive governments over recent years; driving or riding 'as one' in large groups, may possibly be classed (if an officer so asserts) as some form of illegal gathering/causing obstruction or somesuch offence.....the fuel protest convoys of slow moving or stopped trucks seemed to get moved along pretty smartish when the Police came along. ;)

One death would be more than enough......but, there`ve been dozens of needless-deaths of bikers around here......month after month, it seems yet another new flower memorial is being placed at the roadside. :'(
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albitz

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Re: Going to and from 'meets' alone ???
« Reply #6 on: 24 November 2010, 14:05:05 »

Wether or not they were racing each other on public roads or not is irrelevant imo. The rider who died was a grown adult who decided to ride in the manner he did (assuming the accident was his fault) and took responsibility for his actions, and paid the tragic price. It was his decision as a grown adult, and to charge the others involved is totally outrageous imo.
There are elements within the police who will do almost anything to bring any charges possible against anyone who rides a bike.
I was watching emergency bikers the other night and the Essex police motorcyclist stated that he was setting up a speed trap to catch speeding bikers. WHY?????, he should be targetting speeding road users regardless of whatever type of vehicle they happen to be using. >:( >:(
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Going to and from 'meets' alone ???
« Reply #7 on: 24 November 2010, 14:23:55 »

Quote
Wether or not they were racing each other on public roads or not is irrelevant imo. The rider who died was a grown adult who decided to ride in the manner he did (assuming the accident was his fault) and took responsibility for his actions, and paid the tragic price. It was his decision as a grown adult, and to charge the others involved is totally outrageous imo.
There are elements within the police who will do almost anything to bring any charges possible against anyone who rides a bike.
I was watching emergency bikers the other night and the Essex police motorcyclist stated that he was setting up a speed trap to catch speeding bikers. WHY?????, he should be targetting speeding road users regardless of whatever type of vehicle they happen to be using. >:( >:(

Amen to that. Whatever next? Does it have to be a formal group or if an unknown biker who just happens to be in front of you decides to ride like an @rse do you take the hit?

The rider alone is responsible for his machine and how it's ridden.

I do a lot of driving in groups of kit cars. Some drive faster than  I do and take what I would consider to be unacceptable risks. Then again, many I would consider better drivers than I and perhaps not actually driving anywhere near what they consider to be "ten tenths". Either way, it's their decision, and I'll happily let them pass.

Other drivers are much slower than I am.

You find your own speed and naturally gravitate into a group of people with similar driving habits. To suggest that other members of a group are legally responsible for the driving of all other members despite them being adults free to make their own way in life is just incredible. :o

There must be more to this than reported, surely?

Kevin
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mantahatch

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Re: Going to and from 'meets' alone ???
« Reply #8 on: 24 November 2010, 15:15:50 »

So when cars bunch up on the motorway is that an illegal gathering aswell. When I accelerate away from traffic lights on a dual carraigeway am I racing the car longside me.

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aaronjb

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Re: Going to and from 'meets' alone ???
« Reply #9 on: 24 November 2010, 16:45:49 »

Quote
So when cars bunch up on the motorway is that an illegal gathering aswell. When I accelerate away from traffic lights on a dual carraigeway am I racing the car longside me.


I'm pretty sure I've read of occasions when person A was prosecuted because person B had an accident while trying to keep up in just those circumstances (even though person A didn't know person B, it was assumed based on witness testimony that they were 'racing')

The age of personal responsibility is dead.. I could also rant about the (incredibly unfortunate and very sad) accident with the child and the paintbrush recently, which seems likely to land the school in hot water for letting children paint with 'long, pointed brushes' while sitting on the floor..

Better ban finger painting while they're at it - because you know you can poke an eye out with those fingers. Wait. Ban fingers!


Ahem, sorry, I got all carried away, there.
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Going to and from 'meets' alone ???
« Reply #10 on: 24 November 2010, 16:54:14 »

Quote
So when cars bunch up on the motorway is that an illegal gathering aswell. When I accelerate away from traffic lights on a dual carraigeway am I racing the car longside me.


A mate of mine got a 12 month ban for "racing on the highway" once. He decided to gun it of the lights. Bloke behind did the same. No speed limits broken. No innocent bystanders slaughtered, no problem at all, in fact. Got hauled up before the beak and stitched up.

Kevin
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aaronjb

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Re: Going to and from 'meets' alone ???
« Reply #11 on: 24 November 2010, 17:10:43 »

Quote
A mate of mine got a 12 month ban for "racing on the highway" once. He decided to gun it of the lights. Bloke behind did the same. No speed limits broken. No innocent bystanders slaughtered, no problem at all, in fact. Got hauled up before the beak and stitched up.

Pretty harsh eh..

A friend of mine got an ASBO for 'excessive tyre noise' or somesuch, because he accidentally lit his rears up exiting a carpark where the surface was breaking up..

(Naturally we got him a hoody with 'ASBO' written across the back in large, white letters ;D)
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TheBoy

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Re: Going to and from 'meets' alone ???
« Reply #12 on: 24 November 2010, 18:43:46 »

The do-gooders will always win, because we've allowed the idiots too much slack up til now.
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Amigo

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Re: Going to and from 'meets' alone ???
« Reply #13 on: 24 November 2010, 19:13:25 »

I don't ride bikes anymore (other than the odd go) but used to enjoy pack riding. My last bike was a lovely electric blue 600 bandit with gold renthalls etc. Not fast in the bike world but still quicker than almost any car. I think bikes have almost got too quick nowadays. I know that sounds daft but i've ridden a 900 blade, 1200 Bandit, 750 gixer & they're so fast your fingers are hanging off the throttle when you wind them out. Fine if you're a moto GP racer, physically fit & on a track but not if you sit behind a desk/steering wheel all week. On full go on a bumpy road we won't be fully in control. I can't behave myself on my own bike. I can on someone else's but gave up because every time i went out i either pottered along some lovely Lincolnshire A & B roads & 60 which is boring & pointless or i went dinlow & risked death or a driving ban. Hence classic cars are now my weekend hobby, nice & safe.
    Let's not forget there are many traffic cops who own high performance cars/bikes & drive them in the same manner when off duty as they nick others for doing when on duty......ironic really! ::)
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albitz

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Re: Going to and from 'meets' alone ???
« Reply #14 on: 24 November 2010, 19:23:03 »

Theres no such thing as too fast Guy, but if you dont learn quickly on a modern bike that the throttle works both ways, then you wont be long for this world, they are mind bendingly quick.
Having said that, you havent been properly excited if you havent redlined an R1 in the lower gears - on a private road of course. :)
The copper who caught me at a high rate of knots on the M11 last year turned out to be a biker, when not in uniform. That small fact and the fact that I took it on the chin rather than whinging like a girl, saved me from a long ban. :)
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