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[Lizzie_Zoom]

They are young and naive Zulu, with a wish to engage in political intercourse over their grievances, who will always have an element, either within their ranks, or outside them that is attracted to causing destruction and mayhem.  This can sometimes be classed as direct action by the Anarchists who have been functioning for a very long time.  In summary the students are striving for what they see as their right, some of them have grown up on the promise by Tony Blair that a priority was "Education, Education, Education", only to find their 'elders, betters and wiser' men have reneged on 'a contract' with promises being cruelly broken.  That is no role model type action to display to the young and naive!!

But yes Zulu Great Britain has benefited from the actions of brave sections of society who have challenged the establishment since the French Revolution of 1789.  Britain has witnessed events from the Royal Navy mutinies of 1797, the United Irishmen, The London Correspondence Society of the late 1790s, Luddism of 1811-12, to Chartism of 1838 - 48.  All these events attracted much violence, on the side of both the protesters and the government of the day.  Hangings, shootings, riots, transpired, with the Peterloo Massacre of 16th August 1819 and Newport uprising, 4th November1839 claiming many lives.  The Chartists even managed to (allegedly) attack the Royal Coach in London (echos of yesterday!!) during their last mass protest for their third National Petition in 1848.

These actions over many years were organised by the common man, and women, against the ruling powers to gain various rights, conditions, and guarantees of legal justice for all.  In the late nineteenth century unions were fighting for political power to gain rights for the common worker, which after the 1914-18 war produced the Labour Party with its Constitution of 1918.  The Suffragettes rioted and caused civil disobedience to gain women's right to vote.

Throughout the 20th century there were protests against Mosley's Brown Shirts, nuclear weapons, The Vietnam War, Mine Closures, and The Poll Tax, to name but a few, which all featured violence in varying degrees.

Yes Zulu man has historically fought for their self interests, and linked together with others of the same sympathies.  It has never been easy, never very pleasant, but to change the political path of the resident government takes sacrifice sometimes, which with the natural state of man, happens.

And when we talk of violence by youngsters in 2010, what have they been brought up on?  Government sponsored massacre of human life in millions during the 1914-18 war, the 1939-45 war, the Korean War, The Iraqi Invasion, the Afghan War to name the key ones.

Yes sometimes "political progress" is not cheap, and comes at a price.  But the day our governments and people's cease to be violent, will be the day our young will start to be pacifist, but we know that natural state will never happen any day soon.

So before everyone condemns the students, think of the past. Think of say the rioting miners during 1984/5 fighting the police.  Also remember the Anarchists will always be amoung us.  Overall remember that one persons justified cause is anothers unnecessary action.

Thank you as always Lizzie for a considered reply.

Overall remember that one persons justified cause is anothers unnecessary action.

Sensible discourse about justifiable grievance is one thing, but wanton destruction and completely irresponsible behaviour from people who should know better – as a result of sound modern education - is another thing entirely. 

I couldn't agree more Zulu, as I have stated before that I personally hate violence and what it has done to mankind.

The point I made was effectively we are dealing with children (in my book no one really grows up until they are at least 25 years old) who have been educated yes - but given what examples!!  That you must fight for what you believe; that violence is necessary at times; that the leaders of our country can break promises; that our politicians (todays ruling classes) can screw the lot of us, and to be stong, wayward, and fighting for our rights, is a worthy cause as featured in so many works of both fact and fiction.

Sorry everyone when I say this but we are all a reflection of our history and the society we have created.  The students are born of us and are testiment to our views, desires, aspirations, and personal greed, with war like nature.  I will not hammer my personal favourite philospher Thomas Hobbs (1588 - 1679) again, but instead quote my favourite philospher for the business I undertook; Machiavelli (1469-1527) who preached that out of evil comes good, and out of good comes evil, coupled with the belief that the end often justifies the means. This is what we (humankind) are, this is how we operate, and the students, young, naive, clumsy, uncouth, are displaying our traits.  Good will come out of the evil.

[Dishevelled Den]

I couldn't agree more Zulu, as I have stated before that I personally hate violence and what it has done to mankind.

The point I made was effectively we are dealing with children (in my book no one really grows up until they are at least 25 years old) who have been educated yes - but given what examples!!  That you must fight for what you believe; that violence is necessary at times; that the leaders of our country can break promises; that our politicians (todays ruling classes) can screw the lot of us, and to be stong, wayward, and fighting for our rights, is a worthy cause as featured in so many works of both fact and fiction.

Sorry everyone when I say this but we are all a reflection of our history and the society we have created.  The students are born of us and are testiment to our views, desires, aspirations, and personal greed, with war like nature.  I will not hammer my personal favourite philospher Thomas Hobbs (1588 - 1679) again, but instead quote my favourite philospher for the business I undertook; Machiavelli (1469-1527) who preached that out of evil comes good, and out of good comes evil, coupled with the belief that the end often justifies the means. This is what we (humankind) are, this is how we operate, and the students, young, naive, clumsy, uncouth, are displaying our traits.  Good will come out of the evil.

Good will come out of the evil.

I'll gladly join you in that hope Lizzie. 8-)

The students are born of us and are testiment to our views, desires, aspirations, and personal greed, with war like nature.

That is why a sound family base, a firm but fair social structure, a competent relevant educational process and professional imaginative government is crucial to the advancement of our society.

The present state of the country shows that there is something wrong with the natural progression of our young people being taught the value of respecting other people and the institutions of state.

This failure in many cases comes from the breakdown of the conventional parent/child relationship and a society that values little other than the satisfaction of immediate desires.

Although you have said (rightly) that this circle has been described from time immemorial, what makes the difference this time around is that there are many more people in the world - a world where there are few barriers to cushion the effects of disturbance and a world where many people can be motivated by remote means.

The end result in my mind at least is a world where the immediacy of information - without understanding the full import of it - conspires to allow great numbers of people to act in circumstances, the inevitable consequences of which, allows undesirable things to happen.

The more this happens, the more it is allowed to happen and the more we become ambivalent to it then it is more likely for good to ultimately lose the battle with evil.

The following is a great example of what happens when a strong family unit produces a child who takes full advantage of sound education to ultimately shine in practical academia.

It is the breath-taking lecture given by a 47 year old man who had only months to live at the time.

At 76 minutes long it may be too much for many people who stumble across is but it is well worth watching for its inspirational content and as an example of the true worth of education.   


http://www.wimp.com/lastlecture/


http://www.cmu.edu/randyslecture/

[millwall]

It's the entire system that needs an overhaul - from primary education upwards - where teaching standards are poor, discipline doesn't exist, and exams are as difficult as a Noddy book.

50/60% of over 18 year olds in university education? - don't make me laugh! Most of them don't have that sort of brains.

University education should be free and available to all from whatever background on the basis of merit via the route of difficult exams that sort out the best qualified. University education should be limited to the real subjects and to (at a guess) the top 10/15% of educational achievers.

The rest should go to work and further their education at night school or college.

Of course we all know that getting so many into university is a political ploy to soften the unemployment figures.

Employers should take their share of the blame as well, as they insist of degrees for postions that patently don't need one - and they should also invest in their employees and fund their further education (day or night college) at the same time as teaching them the job while they're working in it.

In many ways - university education is everything that is wrong wit this country - people leave university with some high flying academic qualification that walks them into a top job - which they then proceed to cock up as they have no experieence of work or life. For an example look at your top coppers, top officials in pubic services etc etc etc.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I couldn't agree more Zulu, as I have stated before that I personally hate violence and what it has done to mankind.

The point I made was effectively we are dealing with children (in my book no one really grows up until they are at least 25 years old) who have been educated yes - but given what examples!!  That you must fight for what you believe; that violence is necessary at times; that the leaders of our country can break promises; that our politicians (today's ruling classes) can screw the lot of us, and to be strong, wayward, and fighting for our rights, is a worthy cause as featured in so many works of both fact and fiction.

Sorry everyone when I say this but we are all a reflection of our history and the society we have created.  The students are born of us and are testament to our views, desires, aspirations, and personal greed, with war like nature.  I will not hammer my personal favourite philosopher Thomas Hobbs (1588 - 1679) again, but instead quote my favourite philosopher for the business I undertook; Machiavelli (1469-1527) who preached that out of evil comes good, and out of good comes evil, coupled with the belief that the end often justifies the means. This is what we (humankind) are, this is how we operate, and the students, young, naive, clumsy, uncouth, are displaying our traits.  Good will come out of the evil.

The present state of the country shows that there is something wrong with the natural progression of our young people being taught the value of respecting other people and the institutions of state.

This failure in many cases comes from the breakdown of the conventional parent/child relationship and a society that values little other than the satisfaction of immediate desires.

The end result in my mind at least is a world where the immediacy of information - without understanding the full import of it - conspires to allow great numbers of people to act in circumstances, the inevitable consequences of which, allows undesirable things to happen.

The more this happens, the more it is allowed to happen and the more we become ambivalent to it then it is more likely for good to ultimately lose the battle with evil.

I think Zulu there is common agreement between the two of us on many of the factors concerning the modern age and its evils, along with its great advantages.  However, I will touch on your comments and expand my viewpoint:


Why is it "natural progression" for the young people to be  taught respect for the institutions of state Zulu?

That frame of mind, with the unquestioning stance of the people towards the establishment and its works, respecting God, King and Country, received a hefty blow with the Great War, where by 1917/18 the common people were being to grasp how that misplaced faith had cost them, along with their loved ones, a terrible price due to imperial greed that was significantly borne by the young. In more modern times the masses have learnt that their 'Lords and Masters' are no better than them, allowing industry to be wrecked with thousands of jobs lost, with little loyalty for the working classes, and a penchant for fraud and lies.  The young, who have been cast aside in these forlorn communities should have respect?  For this? 

During the 1950s the governments of the day encouraged widespread consumerism of a population that had been through the hell of total war, and believed in make do and mend, with only purchasing what could be afforded that very day.  They had been brutalised, families wrecked, and communities shattered.  Now the 'modern' government stated "we have never had it so good" ( Harold Macmillan) and effectively stated go forth and spend.  Spend they did throughout the 1960s, 1970s,1980s and 1990s, with credit being readily available, and a completely tolerant society where anything goes!  The old values went, sacrificed to a new government sponsored world of "all is possible, TODAY"!! Now today we are all faced with the consequences of those decades which we have all been party to, and we wonder why the youth of today have little respect for our values?

The young students have grown up on this history, and we are surprised that the old loyalties and respect have faded?!  Why should they have respect for a 'plastic' world of demigods and falseness at all levels of society.  Who can they look up to and respect?  Celebrities??? 

If there had been a immediacy of information during 1914-18 the war would have ended speedily, with tens of thousands of lives saved, as the masses protested against the excesses of the King, General Haig, and Country.  With modern immediacy of information during the 1930s perhaps the truth of developments within Germany would have been more widely recognised and acted upon, Suez would not have taken place, and the Vietnam War would have been halted in its tracks sooner than it eventually was by media exposure.  Full immediacy of information perhaps would have allowed for the masses to know the complete truth about their MP's, and would inhibit the lies and deception for instance as the students have rudely learnt! 

No, "immediacy of information" is the one hope to control our political Lords and Masters, with complete transparency gained.  The young of today have been 'corrupted' as we have, but maybe the young of tomorrow will be brought up with new values of loyalty and respect for the elements of life that matter. That though is down to you, I and all living adults today.

Out of evil will come good!  That is something we can be sure of!

[geoffr70]

I think we should just abandon Britain now, it's a lost cause and a sinking ship.

With once great national industries and utility companies being owned by other countries, our godless indisciplined feral society, reliance on foreign countries for energy supplies, the expanding republican ideology, our over sized inefficient and corrupt public sector, the NHS need I say more, failing education, junkies being given medication over lifelong tax paying cancer sufferers, an unfit for purpose judicial system, an armed forces that will soon be so small it can only be called a militia, enforced pseudo-religion of equality and diversity which you will comply with and become brainwashed or lose your job, the big multi cultural experiment, leeching of the nation by non genuine asylum seekers, and the malevolent treatment of us by jealous states, the MP expenses scandal which has conveniently dissappeared - a shocking and disgraceful embarrassment around the world which has caused us untold and irreversible damage. I could go on and on.........then this carry on with the students........they are just too used to having it too good. Too much of a good thing, well the countries had it too good for too long, now we've got to pay for it.

Britain is an old country with old ideas. We have shoddy inefficient systems, services and infrastructure, which are weakened further by theft, fraud, and corruption.

When we do finally get pushed over the last hurdle to becoming a European superstate, it won't last long. It will get worse.

Nevermind the coming wave of terrorism which our leaders seem blind to.

Nevermind, who's for tea?

[MartinP]

Unfortunately the cost of the repairs for the damage is never paid by the yobs who have had a great day out with little chance of being caught.

Me, I'd put snipers on the roof and let them take a leg shot at anyone wielding a brick or metal pole and inflicting damage on other people or property whilst having the protection of a crowd of people between them and the police.

Failing that i would at least put blue food dye and microdots into the watercannon to allow the police a chance of tracking them down.

Martin

[albitz]

I think we should just abandon Britain now, it's a lost cause and a sinking ship.

With once great national industries and utility companies being owned by other countries, our godless indisciplined feral society, reliance on foreign countries for energy supplies, the expanding republican ideology, our over sized inefficient and corrupt public sector, the NHS need I say more, failing education, junkies being given medication over lifelong tax paying cancer sufferers, an unfit for purpose judicial system, an armed forces that will soon be so small it can only be called a militia, enforced pseudo-religion of equality and diversity which you will comply with and become brainwashed or lose your job, the big multi cultural experiment, leeching of the nation by non genuine asylum seekers, and the malevolent treatment of us by jealous states, the MP expenses scandal which has conveniently dissappeared - a shocking and disgraceful embarrassment around the world which has caused us untold and irreversible damage. I could go on and on.........then this carry on with the students........they are just too used to having it too good. Too much of a good thing, well the countries had it too good for too long, now we've got to pay for it.

Britain is an old country with old ideas. We have shoddy inefficient systems, services and infrastructure, which are weakened further by theft, fraud, and corruption.

When we do finally get pushed over the last hurdle to becoming a European superstate, it won't last long. It will get worse.

Nevermind the coming wave of terrorism which our leaders seem blind to.

Nevermind, who's for tea?

I wish I could disagree with you on at least some of those points Geoff, but very sadly I cant.

[geoffr70]

I think we should just abandon Britain now, it's a lost cause and a sinking ship.

With once great national industries and utility companies being owned by other countries, our godless indisciplined feral society, reliance on foreign countries for energy supplies, the expanding republican ideology, our over sized inefficient and corrupt public sector, the NHS need I say more, failing education, junkies being given medication over lifelong tax paying cancer sufferers, an unfit for purpose judicial system, an armed forces that will soon be so small it can only be called a militia, enforced pseudo-religion of equality and diversity which you will comply with and become brainwashed or lose your job, the big multi cultural experiment, leeching of the nation by non genuine asylum seekers, and the malevolent treatment of us by jealous states, the MP expenses scandal which has conveniently dissappeared - a shocking and disgraceful embarrassment around the world which has caused us untold and irreversible damage. I could go on and on.........then this carry on with the students........they are just too used to having it too good. Too much of a good thing, well the countries had it too good for too long, now we've got to pay for it.

Britain is an old country with old ideas. We have shoddy inefficient systems, services and infrastructure, which are weakened further by theft, fraud, and corruption.

When we do finally get pushed over the last hurdle to becoming a European superstate, it won't last long. It will get worse.

Nevermind the coming wave of terrorism which our leaders seem blind to.

Nevermind, who's for tea?

I wish I could disagree with you on at least some of those points Geoff, but very sadly I cant.

You wouldn't believe I'm a patriot after writing that would you?!?!

[albitz]

On the contrary, its very obvious that you are.

[Dishevelled Den]

I've had to continue this here Lizzie as I couldn't quote on your post due to lack of space.

Why is it "natural progression" for the young people to be  taught respect for the institutions of state Zulu?

Why should those institutions not be respected Lizzie, they embrace more than the government of the day after all and one would hope that, if young people are expected to become useful members of society, they would be capable of dealing with the less desirable aspects of state policy in a constructive manner through understanding and not hostility.

That frame of mind, with the unquestioning stance of the people towards the establishment and its works, respecting God, King and Country, received a hefty blow with the Great War, where by 1917/18 the common people were being to grasp how that misplaced faith had cost them, along with their loved ones, a terrible price due to imperial greed that was significantly borne by the young.

Of course it’s right to question government or indeed any other state body however the desire for answers should be based on the intention to go forward in a constructive manner without attempting to cause destruction on the way.  If an attempt is made to bring down state institutions by violence what remains to implement necessary change.

It’s all very well shouting for change but unless that change comes in a progressive and constructive way chaos ensues.  From what I see many young people simply do not have the capability or capacity to force change based on a reasoned assessment of the national situation. (in this case) 

Now today we are all faced with the consequences of those decades which we have all been party to, and we wonder why the youth of today have little respect for our values?

But surely most young people today inhabit those values quite easily, they seem to be quite at ease with the live now pay later philosophy - for example are many of them prepared for their financial future by saving money to name but one thing? 

There seems little justification to be made for those who have benefited from the start they have been given by their family and society in general only to complain when they are expected to function in a responsible manner and, in the case of the student fees, pay more for their education which after all is intended to enable them build a life for themselves and their own families.

Who can they look up to and respect?  Celebrities???

Now you're getting close to why I say this country, in particular, is in trouble as a lot of young people seem to be doing just that.

If there had been a immediacy of information during 1914-18 the war would have ended speedily

But would it have, we have recourse to information as it's happening thanks to the internet and 24hr broadcast news among  other things - has that helped to draw the Afghan war to a quick conclusion, did the realisation of how quickly information can be disseminated prevent the parliamentary scandals?  No, in this regard the immediacy of information does not guarantee any beneficial result.

The immediacy of information I spoke of related to this highly technical age where a mass of people can be motivated quite effortlessly to follow an agenda and, more importantly, how many of those people will act in concert without necessarily considering the full consequences of their actions - as perhaps many of those who demonstrated on Thursday did.

The young of today have been 'corrupted' as we have, but maybe the young of tomorrow will be brought up with new values of loyalty and respect for the elements of life that matter. That though is down to you, I and all living adults today.

The trouble is that the young of tomorrow will be under the influence of the young of today Lizzie – rather like those students (and others) we witnessed putting their constructive and considered opinions across to an astonished nation last Thursday.

As adults all we can do at the moment is to make our experiences known to the present young in the hope that they will be able to develop a mature responsible outlook to help prepare them for that eventuality.  A large part of my experience tells me that violence does not work in the end and, when that violence engaged through mass protest with a view to forcing change, it seldom produces a stable result.

The way to alter any unsatisfactory situation is by constructive change not by destructive means.

[Amigo]

Methinks this thread has drifted off topic? Strip it all down, do away with the waffle & all you're left with is too many students with too much attitude & nothing constructive to do because there's too many of them & most, (not all) are workshy so attend one course after another that involve the least lectures & will never amount to anything.
     GO TO WORK!!!

[albitz]

Maybe more people should do the university thing the way my daughter is going to do it. She has worked (at least 60 hours per week) for the last 10 years, is now in her late 20,s and has decided that her current career is not what she wants to do for the rest of her life, so she is leaving a well paid job and jumping off a career ladder to go to uni to study a subject which she has a passion for.
She is past the stage of getting drunk at every opportunity, knows what a days work is, and cant believe that she is going to be getting more holidays than she did from primary school.
These will no doubt be used as study opportunities, rather than partying opportunities that a teenager would see them as.

[geoffr70]

Maybe more people should do the university thing the way my daughter is going to do it. She has worked (at least 60 hours per week) for the last 10 years, is now in her late 20,s and has decided that her current career is not what she wants to do for the rest of her life, so she is leaving a well paid job and jumping off a career ladder to go to uni to study a subject which she has a passion for.
She is past the stage of getting drunk at every opportunity, knows what a days work is, and cant believe that she is going to be getting more holidays than she did from primary school.
These will no doubt be used as study opportunities, rather than partying opportunities that a teenager would see them as.

It's a brave thing to do, good luck to her!

[millwall]

Maybe more people should do the university thing the way my daughter is going to do it. She has worked (at least 60 hours per week) for the last 10 years, is now in her late 20,s and has decided that her current career is not what she wants to do for the rest of her life, so she is leaving a well paid job and jumping off a career ladder to go to uni to study a subject which she has a passion for.
She is past the stage of getting drunk at every opportunity, knows what a days work is, and cant believe that she is going to be getting more holidays than she did from primary school.
These will no doubt be used as study opportunities, rather than partying opportunities that a teenager would see them as.

wish her good luck

[Amigo]

Maybe more people should do the university thing the way my daughter is going to do it. She has worked (at least 60 hours per week) for the last 10 years, is now in her late 20,s and has decided that her current career is not what she wants to do for the rest of her life, so she is leaving a well paid job and jumping off a career ladder to go to uni to study a subject which she has a passion for.
She is past the stage of getting drunk at every opportunity, knows what a days work is, and cant believe that she is going to be getting more holidays than she did from primary school.
These will no doubt be used as study opportunities, rather than partying opportunities that a teenager would see them as.

Now that is worth doing & best wishes to her.