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[cem_devecioglu]

correct dosage of ambition is something understandable (not the violent one that the capitalist system imposes ).. And its good for the future of community Zulu.. Although humans are not equal,  giving them equal chances of education and some civil services is a good starting point..   why cant a postmans children cant go Eton college or the likes ?

not the violent one that the capitalist system imposes

  You didn't disappoint me there cem.

Yes it certainly is desirable that all people are given the chance of education, a stable environment, a loving family unit, productive and rewarding employment, freedom from oppression (both secular and religious) and above all, the opportunity to be the best that they can possibly be - unfortunately in all systems, particularly in the ones we usually discuss here, these desirable things don't always filter down to those who would seek the opportunity to explore, exploit and experience them.

In my view this is very much part of the human condition rather than the dogma of social/political orientation or system.  We humans can't help it as, in many cases, it is part of our collective nature.

yep.. its correct.. rising above the others "alpha male" or whatever, comes from our historical-ancient genes which is our animal part.. but I doubt thats  necessary in a "modern community" .. instead there are different mechanisms/exams that can define your level..

[Banjax]

Albs - I'm being critical of the way banks now dominate us completely, "money" is debt and when you borrow money the bank wants to know what you're doing with it - thats the same for one person as it is for companies and businesses, thats why i say they control the direction society takes more than any other force.

and why is it that your default position to any argument is "dont like it? well see how you like life under communism!!!" as i see it theres a vast field of possibilities from one extreme to the other, just because others can see radically different ways of doing things for the betterment of all doesnt make me a commie, surely  :-?

i think we could all benefit from dialling back the capitilism and fading in some socialism 

[Amigo]

I admire you all for your knowledge & convictions, you have all made valid points that i could'nt possibly argue for or against. I left school /home in 1979 & since then have worked through countless governments/regimes if you like & after all these years i still live happily in my little house doing my little job, & enjoying my hobbies, friends/family, loved ones & day to day life. I could'nt care less who get's voted in or what they promise because they never deliver it anyway & blame it on the mess left behind by the previous party. I admire those of you with more knowledge of such issues & your well meant intentions but none of us will change the world, the arrogant in power will never listen. I know this will be unpopular with some of you & i'm sorry but my head is happiy in the sand.

   Let them get on with it.

[bigegg]

just logged in for five minutes to check messages before returning to reading a book called "conspiracy of the rich" by robert kiyosaki (of rich dad poor dad fame).

he's basically saying what banjax said in the first post, but also poses this:

why is school dedicated to teaching everyone who attends how to get a better job, instead of how to own the business?
even such courses as the "MBA" (Masters in Business Administration) is about running a business, not owning/investing in several

we are taught to climb the corporate ladder, why are we not taught to own the ladder?

even the grammar school was to separate out the people who would make better employees.

probably the reason why postmen aren't given the opportunity to attend eton.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I admire you all for your knowledge & convictions, you have all made valid points that i could'nt possibly argue for or against. I left school /home in 1979 & since then have worked through countless governments/regimes if you like & after all these years i still live happily in my little house doing my little job, & enjoying my hobbies, friends/family, loved ones & day to day life. I could'nt care less who get's voted in or what they promise because they never deliver it anyway & blame it on the mess left behind by the previous party. I admire those of you with more knowledge of such issues & your well meant intentions but none of us will change the world, the arrogant in power will never listen. I know this will be unpopular with some of you & i'm sorry but my head is happiy in the sand.

   Let them get on with it.

You are so right Guy!

The ruling elite since 380 BC have been ignoring the very practical plan of Plato, but a it meant no wealth for them they didn't want to know! 

How true that is of the same elite today, and now perhaps it will take a Hobbs Leviathan
(1651) to bring a strong hand to proceedings to part the financers from their power!

[Lizzie_Zoom]

just logged in for five minutes to check messages before returning to reading a book called "conspiracy of the rich" by robert kiyosaki (of rich dad poor dad fame).

he's basically saying what banjax said in the first post, but also poses this:

why is school dedicated to teaching everyone who attends how to get a better job, instead of how to own the business?
even such courses as the "MBA" (Masters in Business Administration) is about running a business, not owning/investing in several

we are taught to climb the corporate ladder, why are we not taught to own the ladder?

even the grammar school was to separate out the people who would make better employees.

probably the reason why postmen aren't given the opportunity to attend eton.

Because the system is owned by the capitalist ruling elite and runs for their benefit, not for the benefit of the lower classes.  Marx had that one fully understood, but still nothing changes because why would the ruling elite change a system that gives them the power?

Even the dear old socialist NHS repairs those damaged by the capitalist system. Why?  So that they can go back to work as soon as possible to carry on creating the wealth for the capitalist masters, the owners of industry!

[bigegg]

so you feel that the answer is to remove the "ruling elite" and give power to "the masses"?

can't see that working, it will just create a new elite.

I'd rather give anyone the chance to JOIN the elite.

[bigegg]

another question -
lots of adverts offering to buy gold.

companies don't buy if they can't sell at a profit.
who's buying the gold?

clue:
Rules od monopoly:

"The 'bank' never goes broke. If 'The Bank' ever runs out of money, it can make as much more as needed by merely writing on any ordinary piece of paper"

I think, ultimately, that the "ruling capitalists" are buying the gold, because most, if not all, the world's currencies are going to become worthless, and the only "real" wealth will be in gold.

[Amigo]

I'm playing a wild card here but, some vote some don't & non votes are wasted or go to someone else? i dunno  but what would happen at the next general election if no one voted? If the whole country caught a dose of the apathy i happily live with, what would happen? I can picture them all in anticipation then NOTHING!!!
   Would the police or military take over for a while? Would there be an EU input?  Just wondered!!!! Guy.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

so you feel that the answer is to remove the "ruling elite" and give power to "the masses"?

can't see that working, it will just create a new elite.

I'd rather give anyone the chance to JOIN the elite.

No, I am not saying that.  The elite should use their knowledge and experience to provide advice and guidance to the administrators of the nation, with both those levels having no wealth but rewarded by how they give so much to society. The elite provide the training and the knowledge to the administrators, or auxiliaries, and have the responsibility of recognising ability and skill in those in the lower levels.  The lowest level of society produce the wealth for society by way of their labours, and can have unlimited wealth for themselves, which the auxiliary and elite classes cannot have.

[bigegg]

why would the elite do that?
I certainly wouldn't if it was me - I want the unlimited wealth that comes with me expertise and experience.


Actually, I've just had a thought.
Petrol HASN'T gone up in price, the pound has gone down in value.
Because fuel has intrinsic value (a certain number of miles, or a certain amount of heat, or a certain amount of work), and a pound doesn't.

[albitz]

so you feel that the answer is to remove the "ruling elite" and give power to "the masses"?

can't see that working, it will just create a new elite.

I'd rather give anyone the chance to JOIN the elite.

Absolutely spot on mate. And the old Grammar schools gave people the chance to join that Elite, not just be btter employess. Prime ministers and senior politicians of modern times can be divided into those who went to public school or those who went to Grammar school. There is no third group. Now the Grammars have all but gone we are back to purely public school PM,s ( both Blair and Cameron did ) and social mobility has all but stopped.
There is a very interesting programme about this on BBC2 as we speak. It has dealt with these very issues in a very objective way. Its almost finished but should be repeated or on iplayer, and is well wrth watching. I think its called Posh and Posher.

Banjax - Im not looking at everything as purely yes/ no, Black/white - I do know there are many shades of grey in between - I see most of them posting on here regularily.
I was responding directly to Cems post quoting directly from Marx.

[albitz]

another question -
lots of adverts offering to buy gold.

companies don't buy if they can't sell at a profit.
who's buying the gold?

clue:
Rules od monopoly:

"The 'bank' never goes broke. If 'The Bank' ever runs out of money, it can make as much more as needed by merely writing on any ordinary piece of paper"

I think, ultimately, that the "ruling capitalists" are buying the gold, because most, if not all, the world's currencies are going to become worthless, and the only "real" wealth will be in gold.

And surely the answer to that is for us all to empty our piggybanks and go and buy some gold. We are then participants rather than poor under priviliged peasants, or bitter, jealous people wishing we had a slice of the pie.
Be aware however if you do thaat and dont have the nouse to sell your gold at the right time, you could end up poorer and more downtrodden than you were to start with.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

why would the elite do that?
I certainly wouldn't if it was me - I want the unlimited wealth that comes with me expertise and experience.


Actually, I've just had a thought.
Petrol HASN'T gone up in price, the pound has gone down in value.
Because fuel has intrinsic value (a certain number of miles, or a certain amount of heat, or a certain amount of work), and a pound doesn't.

Because that would be the system in The Republic, and that is what would be decreed.

Their superior knowledge and ability would have been recognised from birth, with them being given 'Gold' status, along with education and training over the years, to enhance their skills so that they may take their place with the 'philosopher kings'.  They would be revered and kept comfortable by the 'Silver' and 'Bronze' levels, but it would be the workers, in the 'Bronze' strata of society who would labour hard, but be able to accumulate unlimited wealth, that no others would be able to do.

This system would recognise the God given qualities of the members within this society, and educate accordingly, and allow the workers fair reward for their labours.  This is the system that should have been commenced with in ancient times, but the ruling classes took over and for centuries we have been travelling to where we are now.

It will take a revolution of dramatic proportions, and totally unlike the French version of 1789!!  However, I cannot see this happening any time soon!

[bigegg]

personally, i'm not that fussed about who is, or wants to be, prime minister.
I'd rather have the money.