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[Martin_1962]

So basically we could have built a Eurofighter without help from abroad apart from finances.

I'm not decrying our skills...far from it! Remember we built the English Electric Lightning & the TSR2!

The point is, in my view, we should these days look at what provides the best for the RAF. In the cold light of day, we should not be considering jobs, merely what is best in terms of the job the RAF have to do. I am unconvinced (though willing to be swayed) that the Typhoon is better, from a BOTH a cost and performance point of view.

Go ahead, convince me!   

The Americans would not sell us them.

The Typhoon is as capable.

RAF pilots are very well trained.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I have found these two sites for the fighters being discussed.

http://www.eurofighter.com/capabilities/technology/design-features.html

http://www.f22fighter.com/

All very polished presentations, but I wonder how they would fair in combat against each other!  That is the only way we would really get to know the differences, as the German ME109 pilots got to assess the worth of the British Spitfire!!

Everything is in academic terms, thanks goodness, and will be unless the worst happens!

It is also important to point out that it is unlikely the RAF Typoon will be ever up against the American F22A, and it is more likely they would both be up against a Russian or Chinese fighter.

[Varche]

I have found these two sites for the fighters being discussed.

http://www.eurofighter.com/capabilities/technology/design-features.html

http://www.f22fighter.com/

All very polished presentations, but I wonder how they would fair in combat against each other!  That is the only way we would really get to know the differences, as the German ME109 pilots got to assess the worth of the British Spitfire!!

Everything is in academic terms, thanks goodness, and will be unless the worst happens!

It is also important to point out that it is unlikely the RAF Typoon will be ever up against the American F22A, and it is more likely they would both be up against a Russian or Chinese fighter.

"piloted by an airman from a despotic oil rich,in civil conflict, Arab regime no doubt." Won't be long now.......

[Marks DTM Calib]

Key things to consider.

The 'sherman tanks' develop new planes far more regularly then us and hence the incremental development costs for each plane is lower.

In the case of the typhoon, the last major fighter was the Tornado and hence a LOT more development was required which costs more money.

And the most important thing is that by developing our own and not buying from the untrustworthy yanks, we keep people in jobs and skills honed.....which makes the real cost probably about 50% less than the miss quoted figure.

And the eurojet is by for the best turbo jet out there at the moment.

[Nickbat]

Before slagging off the American planes too much, you should note that the next generation F-35 Lightning will have optional Rolls Royce engines and battle systems by BAe (as does the F-22).

The critical point of the original post is summed up by the following:

What a joy it is to think that we paid £119m to upgrade the Tranche 1 planes back in 2008 so that they could do ground attack. In 2016 the RAF will finally have the pilots it needs to use this capability: but by then the Tranche 1s will already be being thrown away – all of them will be gone by 2019, remember.

We paid all that money upgrading the Tranche 1s and now we'll dispose of them without ever having pilots trained to use the upgrade!

So, I'm concerned that while it may not be an inferior plane, the tardy delivery, the perceived need to alter them and their "imminent" disposal, leads me to question whether they were the best option for the RAF when the decision was taken.  :-/

[Marks DTM Calib]

Before slagging off the American planes too much, you should note that the next generation F-35 Lightning will have optional Rolls Royce engines and battle systems by BAe (as does the F-22).

The critical point of the original post is summed up by the following:

What a joy it is to think that we paid £119m to upgrade the Tranche 1 planes back in 2008 so that they could do ground attack. In 2016 the RAF will finally have the pilots it needs to use this capability: but by then the Tranche 1s will already be being thrown away – all of them will be gone by 2019, remember.

We paid all that money upgrading the Tranche 1s and now we'll dispose of them without ever having pilots trained to use the upgrade!

So, I'm concerned that while it may not be an inferior plane, the tardy delivery, the perceived need to alter them and their "imminent" disposal, leads me to question whether they were the best option for the RAF when the decision was taken.  :-/

But thats a very different question now Nickbat.

The other question is, would BAe and co have had the slightest chance of getting a look in on the latest american planes if the euro fighter had NOT been developed.

I am very much in favour of seeing uk tax payers cash spent in the Uk (which is why I am not overly happy about where the carriers are being built!)

[Nickbat]

Before slagging off the American planes too much, you should note that the next generation F-35 Lightning will have optional Rolls Royce engines and battle systems by BAe (as does the F-22).

The critical point of the original post is summed up by the following:

What a joy it is to think that we paid £119m to upgrade the Tranche 1 planes back in 2008 so that they could do ground attack. In 2016 the RAF will finally have the pilots it needs to use this capability: but by then the Tranche 1s will already be being thrown away – all of them will be gone by 2019, remember.

We paid all that money upgrading the Tranche 1s and now we'll dispose of them without ever having pilots trained to use the upgrade!

So, I'm concerned that while it may not be an inferior plane, the tardy delivery, the perceived need to alter them and their "imminent" disposal, leads me to question whether they were the best option for the RAF when the decision was taken.  :-/

But thats a very different question now Nickbat.

The other question is, would BAe and co have had the slightest chance of getting a look in on the latest american planes if the euro fighter had NOT been developed.

I am very much in favour of seeing uk tax payers cash spent in the Uk (which is why I am not overly happy about where the carriers are being built!)

Since 2007, BAE has been selling more to the US than the MoD, so it's a debatable point.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/industrials/article2231494.ece

I would love to see ALL UK taxpayers' money spent here but, when it comes to defence, I'd rather buy cheap guns from my neighbour than make expensive bows and arrows in my home. (Poor analogy, I know, but you get my drift.)     

[mrgreen]

have to agree these jobs were in Europe and if R&D cost more who cares we have european planes and we're not relying on the yanks for nought and lets be honest we aren't in an arms race against the yanks(god forbid) even the british government isn't that stupid!!!

[Marks DTM Calib]

Before slagging off the American planes too much, you should note that the next generation F-35 Lightning will have optional Rolls Royce engines and battle systems by BAe (as does the F-22).

The critical point of the original post is summed up by the following:

What a joy it is to think that we paid £119m to upgrade the Tranche 1 planes back in 2008 so that they could do ground attack. In 2016 the RAF will finally have the pilots it needs to use this capability: but by then the Tranche 1s will already be being thrown away – all of them will be gone by 2019, remember.

We paid all that money upgrading the Tranche 1s and now we'll dispose of them without ever having pilots trained to use the upgrade!

So, I'm concerned that while it may not be an inferior plane, the tardy delivery, the perceived need to alter them and their "imminent" disposal, leads me to question whether they were the best option for the RAF when the decision was taken.  :-/

But thats a very different question now Nickbat.

The other question is, would BAe and co have had the slightest chance of getting a look in on the latest american planes if the euro fighter had NOT been developed.

I am very much in favour of seeing uk tax payers cash spent in the Uk (which is why I am not overly happy about where the carriers are being built!)

Since 2007, BAE has been selling more to the US than the MoD, so it's a debatable point.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/industrials/article2231494.ece

I would love to see ALL UK taxpayers' money spent here but, when it comes to defence, I'd rather buy cheap guns from my neighbour than make expensive bows and arrows in my home. (Poor analogy, I know, but you get my drift.)     

Yes and 2007 is long after the end of the typhoon development.

If BAe and co dont get major development contracts from its own government then its fairwell (look at what happened when they binned the TSR2).

And guns are one thing, multi billion euro developments of advanced aircraft is very different.

And the spin offs that come from it also appear in everyday life to!

I personaly would slash the defence budget and halve the forces we have (as its bigger than we can afford and we are involved in more than we can afford).

[Nickbat]

have to agree these jobs were in Europe and if R&D cost more who cares we have european planes and we're not relying on the yanks for nought and lets be honest we aren't in an arms race against the yanks(god forbid) even the british government isn't that stupid!!!

European jobs are no more valuable to me than US jobs since, either way, they are not British jobs. Well, obviously there are some British jobs connected, but equally there are British jobs involved in sub-contract work with US aerospace companies like Boeing. There's nothing wrong in my book about relying on the "yanks". In many ways I see them as better friends than some of our European partners.     

[Sixstring]

Ah.................TSR2.............fond memories of the ONE that never was..........................


English electric Lightning..........what a plane in its day.

[Nickbat]

Ah.................TSR2.............fond memories of the ONE that never was..........................


English electric Lightning..........what a plane in its day.

Must agree with you. Fine planes, indeed world-beating, planes in their day. We had the engineers and the skills, just lacked government belief. Scrapping TSR2 was almost an act of treason in my book.     

[Ken T]

The Rise : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsgIcURRN7M

and the fall : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjN3PE4ICj0&feature=related

Ken

[Martin_1962]

My dad has seen a TSR2 fly

[tigers_gonads]

i've 32 hours in a lightining 

done 1200 mph and been up to 42000 ft 

spent 3 1/2 years keeping the rather things flying and loved every minute 


WIWOL