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[STMO123]

A revealing exchange between Today's Evan Davis and the Cabinet Office Minister Francis Maude set the scene for today's strike over public sector pensions.

Maude claimed that public sector pensions are unaffordable. The prime minister went further recently claiming that the "pension system is in danger of going broke". Yet Davis unsettled the minister when he quoted figures from the independent and government-commissioned Hutton Report showing that the cost of public sector pensions is actually projected to fall as a share of national income (from 1.9% of GDP this year to 1.4 % in 2060).

So, how then can the government claim they are unaffordable?

[STMO123]

The government has described upcoming strikes over pension changes as "regrettable, unnecessary and premature", insisting that, following Lord Hutton's landmark report, the current system is not affordable.

But the Institute of Fiscal Studies has questioned that analysis, with the organisation's Carl Emmerson stating that "affordability is not a very good argument for making these schemes [public sector pensions] less generous".

With a gradual decline in the proportion of the national budget spent on public pensions predicted over the long-term, he said, "if we want to afford them we can".

[tunnie]

its all kicking off here, looking down The Strand....



Something kicked off and few people dragged out, it all came to a halt. They kept chanting, "let them go" - Why the police did not drag them out of sight is beyond me. Soon as they moved them away (after about 40 mins!) it all kept chuggin on:

[albitz]

Dont suppose you happen to have a good stock of tear gas in your flat Tunnie ?  ............rather morons, starve them into submission.

[tunnie]

it was funny watching it all kick off, constant drone of police choppers in the Sky got annoying though.

Its all moved on down to Parliament now, sadly no tear gas here. I wanted to yell my own 'chants' out the window. But all windows in this office block are locked 

[El33t]

Sack the lot of them. And the other civil servants.  Draft in a new mob of civil servants who are in touch with the real world 

Attitudes like this are truly, truly depressing.

Yes, sack every one of us who provide you lot with public services. What a clever thing to say. You would be the absolute first in line complaining about your right to health / education / having your bin collected should these services be slaughtered in that manner. Think about what you say.

Is anyone here willing to claim that the following is fair:

We have to pay more into a pension scheme (a day's salary out of a month), for longer (until we're 68), and we will get nothing back.

This is NOT a pension reform. It's a straight forward pay cut. Should I also mention that I stand to get virtually no payrise at all for the next two years, which, on top of a 3.5% pay cut from the pension increase, is a further 10% with inflation as it is?

Is a 13.5% paycut fair for me and people like me? I'm certainly not a high earner.

The public sector, civil servants, and nobody on this forum caused the recession, unless you were taking monumental risks in the financial sector. Why should ANY OF US be prepared to pay for it?

It's absolutely ridiculous that people on here are HAPPY that we are apparently being "brought down" to the "real world".

What a fantastic race to the bottom. Why can't private sector pensions be brought UP to MEET the so-called "gold-plated" standard that we supposedly have.

Fun fact: Your average Civil Service pension scheme is roughly £5,000.

Fun fact: The only people who's pension schemes are protected in the public sector are those who have MP after their names.

Fun fact: It is THESE people who have gold-plated pensions.

I personally stand to lose well over £100,000 over a 20 year retirement with the proposed changes. Shall we celebrate the fact that my generation of pensioners will live in poverty, having worked harder, for longer?

You damn well better believe we're fighting this, and we have every bloody right to do so.

[Martin_1962]

As to pensions.

I think they should be organised on an affordable basis, that the money paid in is available to the person paying it in.

It should be self financing.

They should get the same terms as anyone else with a decent private pension for that amount.

[albitz]

Its absolutely fair imo. The previous govt. expanded the public sector enormously (which in itself gave the unions in the sector more power) they then proceeded to give the public sector in general much more favourable pay and conditions than they previously had. In order to pay for this Gordon Brown imposed a tax levy on each individual pension in the private sector, and at a stroke all but destroyed what had been one of the best pension sectors in the world.
In short - my pension fund has already been plundered to pay for yours, and Im sorry, but Im jnot willing to pay any more.
The public sector needs to shrink drastically, in numbers and in power/influence.
I dont take too much notice of the stats posted earlier in the thread - we all know the saying about statistics. I dont see why the public sector should have the right to retire earlier than the rest of us, on higher pensions than the rest of us, and have a guarenteed amount of pension on retirement. If the amount to be paid in pension doesnt depend on the returns on the money invested for the pension then the shortfall can only be paid from one source - the rest of us.
We must have a public sector, and they desrve reasonable pay and conditions for what they do, but in the last decade or so we have got way beyond that. To the point where some in the sector believe that they are entitled to whatever they demand, regardless of the state of the economy at large.
The public sector has grown enormously, the private sector is shrinking, so for the public sector to keep its manning level and pay / conditions, we in the private sector will ahve to keep paying more - no thanks, enough is enough.
The private sector has had to take its share of the pain in the last few years and now its the public sectors turn. They cant be and shouldnt be immune.
Pay cuts are nothing new in the private sector. I havent had a pay rise for donkeys years, and in fact am earning the same as I was 20 years ago. Thats the financial reality in the real world Im afraid. If the money isnt coming in it cant be paid out.
Dont let your union leaders brainwash you that there is a money tree in the back garden of the teasury, there isnt.
The services you mention - by and large, they are imo a shambles. They cost infinitely more tha  they used to,and mostly provide a much worse service than they used to.
Nothing personal against you, I dont know you from Adam. You might be an extremely hard working/ competent public servant, I have no idea. Its about right and wrong imo, not individuals.

[albitz]

Fully agree Martin. Everyone whether public or private sector (MP,s included) should have pretty much the same pension arrangements. Employer and employee pay an amount per month into a fund and that fund is invested until retirement. On retirement the fund then pays the individual a pension - seemples.

[Banjax]

it was funny watching it all kick off, constant drone of police choppers in the Sky got annoying though.

Its all moved on down to Parliament now, sadly no tear gas here. I wanted to yell my own 'chants' out the window. But all windows in this office block are locked 

love that you capitilise the word "sky" - is that in your contract? 

[El33t]

What everyone fails to realise is that unions are rallying for fair pensions for ALL people, private and public.

The Government is brilliant at driving a wedge between the private and public sectors to turn them against each other, making it far easier to impose cuts upon everyone.

I assure you my facts / statistics are completely verifiable often using Government websites!

Let me put it this way: the proposed changes to the pension schemes, if imposed, will almost certainly cause a huge number of people to pull out of their pension schemes.

The Government rely on this money, and this massive sudden loss could actually cause another recession.

It's in the Government's interests for the economy NOT to impose such ludicrous and unfair changes.

The previous Government did spend more on the public sector, but due to the previous Tory Governments, spending was at an ALL TIME HISTORIC LOW.

The previous Government invested bringing about the 18 week waiting list, and updating school class rooms so they were actually in the 20th century.

Would you rather this sort of public spending didn't happen?

I know that everyone here would be up in arms if their children had to wait months and months for operations or were being taught in leaking mobile classrooms.

The "money tree"; well, how does £123bn in uncollected, avoided and evaded taxes sound? This money should be the Treasury's, but instead wealthy individuals and corporations evade and avoid and the country loses out. A HMRC tax collection officer can get over £600k of taxes collected per year, but the Government are cutting the staff levels at HMRC, not increasing them.

It's hilarious you think the services are a "shambles"; the NHS was actually voted the most efficient health service in Western Europe and it's been reported by PRIVATE research companies that customer satisfaction is at its HIGHEST.

But my sources and inspirations are union based and I see that you believe that "brain washing" takes place, and if you'd rather believe that drastic public spending cuts and job losses is exactly what this country and economy needs, then so be it.

[Banjax]

El33t - well said, I think if we're all honest, most people would rather have the voice of a union standing up for their rights, but this government and a hideously biased media seem hellbent on making ordinary workers out to be the villains of this piece......seems it works on the simpler brains, sadly.....always will and thats just dandy for the tories, the bankers, the land owners - allows them to keep taking a little bit more for themselves see? 

[albitz]

If the country was still being run by the type of clowns who think like you we would be worse of than greece by now. If Cameron doesnt beat the public sector unions into submission we will be where greece is now in the not too distant future.

Please note - tax avoidance is not illegal. Everyone who isnt on PAYE avoids tax if at all possible.Banjax included Im sure

[Shackeng]

El33t - well said, I think if we're all honest, most people would rather have the voice of a union standing up for their rights, but this government and a hideously biased media seem hellbent on making ordinary workers out to be the villains of this piece......seems it works on the simpler brains, sadly.....always will and thats just dandy for the tories, the bankers, the land owners - allows them to keep taking a little bit more for themselves see? 

Not the BBC surely? I thought Evan Davis' s 'interview' with Francis Maude was very well balanced,............ provided that you are of a leftish persuasion.

[albitz]

Yep. ......and the pro stikers bias on Daybreak this morning had to be heard to be believed. Adrian Chiles was talking about how he as a teenager would consider his teachers true heroes for going on strike etc etc......it was rather shockin...the media are certainly very biased.