Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[albitz]

Well, I suppose were all different, but I would confidently say that on a given twisty road I would get there and back in my old HS in the time it would take to get there in my old 205gti.

[Kevin Wood]

Well, I suppose were all different, but I would confidently say that on a given twisty road I would get there and back in my old HS in the time it would take to get there in my old 205gti.

.. and I know a fair few people who've ended up in an uncommanded reverse excursion into the scenery in a 205!

Kevin

[2woody]

On the point of CV joints limiting steering angle, I'm going to disagree here.  Outer CV joints can happily take steering angles of over 40degrees, and I recall more recent ones going much further.  For reliability, wheel/tyre spec options and packaging reasons (I know, I'm going back to that again) manufacturers will reduce the steering angle possible but it's a bit of a misconception to say they alone limit the turning circle of a FWD car.

for a really good cv joint package - just about 23 degrees each side of static, i.e. 45 total.

[Andy B]

....
A mk. II Escort (HFK 147V, s'funny which things my memory chooses to remember!) is the car that really taught me how to drive,  .....

I passed my test in YTC 144L, my driving instructor's Mk I Escort 

[Andy B]

.....  I personally find RWD easier to regain control.  Loose traction with FWD, you loose drive and steering,

IMO it's the other ways round. A RWD skid mean that you have to do something positive to regain control of it. My FWD Astra in the snow was a doddle to drive, if it understeered around corners due to the snow all you had to do was release the throttle ...... and it would usually sort itself out, normally, as long as the driven wheels were pointing roughly in the intended direction then the rest of the car would follow  . I think Volvo said they'd only ever make FWD cars now cos they were 'safer' 

[Kevin Wood]

IMO it's the other ways round. A RWD skid mean that you have to do something positive to regain control of it. My FWD Astra in the snow was a doddle to drive, if it understeered around corners due to the snow all you had to do was release the throttle ...... and it would usually sort itself out, normally, as long as the driven wheels were pointing roughly in the intended direction then the rest of the car would follow  . I think Volvo said they'd only ever make FWD cars now cos they were 'safer' 

= cheaper to mass produce, and it's Volvo so the marketing line is "safer". 

Kevin

[Andy B]

....
= cheaper to mass produce,  ....

Exactly . One unit fits all. 

[Martin_1962]

Well, I suppose were all different, but I would confidently say that on a given twisty road I would get there and back in my old HS in the time it would take to get there in my old 205gti.

.. and I know a fair few people who've ended up in an uncommanded reverse excursion into the scenery in a 205!

Kevin

Especially if following a quick RWD

[aaronjb]

Well, I suppose were all different, but I would confidently say that on a given twisty road I would get there and back in my old HS in the time it would take to get there in my old 205gti.

.. and I know a fair few people who've ended up in an uncommanded reverse excursion into the scenery in a 205!

Snap oversteer was meant to be quite violent on those, no? As a result of the torsion beam suspension at the rear IIRC..

The Renault 5 & 19 had the same setup - the 19 could be quite lively, from memory (although the 5 was so much like a gokart I never got it that much out of shape.. unless ridiculous torque steer counts )

[TheBoy]

I might of, on occasion, been a bit heavy with the throttle coming out of a corner. More than once.  What I will say about the Omega is that it gives lots of feedback, and progressively oversteers, making it fairly easy to control it - given space of course - despite its weight.


I have certainly suffered lift off oversteer in most cars I've owned. I find that more scary.


I agree with 2woody, RWD Transits, marvellous vehicles to learn in. But fully laden, they do snap out too quickly. Apparently

[Kevin Wood]

The Renault 5 & 19 had the same setup - the 19 could be quite lively, from memory (although the 5 was so much like a gokart I never got it that much out of shape.. unless ridiculous torque steer counts )

Mate of mine had a 19. Only good thing he could say about it was that the seats recline very nicely so, although the driving was no fun, once you arrived with the GF at a suitable deserted layby....

Kevin

[Kevin Wood]

I agree with 2woody, RWD Transits, marvellous vehicles to learn in. But fully laden, they do snap out too quickly. Apparently

University had a fleet of Transit minibuses. One year I got the job of picking up all the freshers at the railway station and delivering them to their accommodation.  [smiley=evil.gif]

Funnily enough they didn't ask me the next year.

The female Americans seemed to be the most terrified. Just left home, only been on British soil for a few hours and they're being chucked around the roundabouts of Colchester by some maniac in a Transit.

Kevin

[bluey]

On the point of CV joints limiting steering angle, I'm going to disagree here.  Outer CV joints can happily take steering angles of over 40degrees, and I recall more recent ones going much further.  For reliability, wheel/tyre spec options and packaging reasons (I know, I'm going back to that again) manufacturers will reduce the steering angle possible but it's a bit of a misconception to say they alone limit the turning circle of a FWD car.

for a really good cv joint package - just about 23 degrees each side of static, i.e. 45 total.

Sounds about right for plunge shafts, but I'm referring to Rzeppa joints which operate under far bigger angles.

The 205 did have an achillees heel in its rear bushes allowing lift-off oversteer which could get worse as they aged.  That of course is if you would even call it a problem if you enjoy twirling the wheel and stamping your foot down out of corners! 

I'm going to cheat now and throw another FWD model into the ring with the Elan M100.  Irrespective of your natural preference (and yes, it's unfair for me to bring in a sports car) there is simply no way you'd drive one of those and not be extremely impressed with how they can perform. 

I can see why some people prefer RWD, just as much as I can see why some go the other way too.  It can give a far better balance to a vehicle and steering feel is always going to be better if it doesn't have the added complexities of coping with the drive as well.  What irritates me is the notion held by some people that FWD is just a convenience tool for unskilled drivers, or that it is only provided by manufacturers to save production costs. That's not a slight at anyone on here as I don't think it's been said, but you will always see someone get on their soapbox making such comments and it makes my teeth itch.

[TheBoy]

it is only provided by manufacturers to save production costs. That's not a slight at anyone on here as I don't think it's been said, but you will always see someone get on their soapbox making such comments and it makes my teeth itch.

There are good FWD cars (handling wise) - take my little Rover - and poor RWD cars (handling wise) - look a Merc CLK from around 7 or 8 years ago.


FWD is primarily a compromise on handling to reduce the overall cost of the package. This is what it will always boil down to, as the best 2WD handling should always come from a front steered, rear driven setup.  For 4WD, it seems that approx 40/60 is still the preferred split.

[Andy B]

....
What irritates me is the notion held by some people that FWD is just a convenience tool for unskilled drivers,  .......

But during last year's snow though, it did tend to be BMWs & Merc's stuck in the gutter with the rear wheels spinning like mad while her hands were white due to gripping the steering wheel with no clue what to do or even where the traction control switch was to turn it off.