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[henryd]

Apparently Audi Germany has sent new engine ecu software to our UK dealer yesterday and dealer here phoned to say it seems to have solved the poor starting problem. They will keep car until Monday night to test properly.

The fact that they are alternating between "engine has no compression" and "needs a firmware update" doesn't instil a lot of confidence. Regardless of whether they understand the electronic systems, the engine compression is either OK or it's not. What sort of mechanic can't test it and decide once and for all?

True enough,after all it aint rocket science to take readings off a gauge is it

[Kevin Wood]

Along with many other things PS - but I certainly agree on this point. 


The ability for people to investigate a problem, think of potential solutions and extrapolate their findings into a workable fix for it seems to have been relegated to a very distant point on the league table of practical good sense.

Of course it doesn’t help (in this case) as there seem to be few true mechanics remaining at large in that murky world now that the majority of the wildlife in car workshops seem to be little more than fitters possessing the skill to change parts like for like but bereft of any nous to actually repair anything than can be fixed rather than replaced.

It's down to how people are trained and the backup they receive too, IMHO. In the company I work for (another German high-tech company, as it happens) we have a group of technicians who, 10-15 years ago, were working on complex electronic systems at component level. They were able to diagnose a problem down to this level, get the soldering iron out, replace the defective component, and make the customer happy.

The literature they were given was a service manual containing a schematic of every module inside the device with a brief description of how it works and how to test / calibrate it. The rest was down to them.

Nowadays, for various reasons, many faults can't be repaired at that level any more, so swapping larger modules is the best way to effect most repairs.

They now get a manual stating that they run a piece of software, which tells them which module is breaked. It includes big colour pictures of the module and precisely how to remove a couple of screws and lift it out of the instrument so they don't get confused. It reminds them to wash their hands after going for a pee, not to eat yellow snow, etc.

As soon as there's a problem that the guy who wrote the service manual / software didn't anticipate, swapping modules at random is the only solution whereas, if there was still detailed information available, a decent technician could work through the problem and resolve it, even if it amounted to swapping a module at the end of the day.

The point I'm making is that, if you treat service technicians as idiots, that is exactly what they will eventually become, unfortunately.

[Dishevelled Den]

It's down to how people are trained and the backup they receive too, IMHO. In the company I work for (another German high-tech company, as it happens) we have a group of technicians who, 10-15 years ago, were working on complex electronic systems at component level. They were able to diagnose a problem down to this level, get the soldering iron out, replace the defective component, and make the customer happy//.......

.....//The point I'm making is that, if you treat service technicians as idiots, that is exactly what they will eventually become, unfortunately.

Yes, I think it's fair to say that things now have a habit of being arse about faced in this technologically advanced world we inhabit.

[Marks DTM Calib]

You also have to recognise the reality of the capability of the mechanics in the first place.

The basics of the internal combustion engine have not changed and using the basics of operation, most faults can be understood, diagnosed and fixed effectively.

The belief that a mechanic can be somebody with no qualifiications sadly does not cut it anymore as you need to be pretty computer literate and have a good grasp of maths.

[feeutfo]

Hmmm, clearly there is a failing we are all aware of at Dealers and elsewhere. Qualifications may help initially, but I'm sure we have also encountered incompetence from the highly qualified, and conversely the opposite from fully competent individuals with no exams worthy of the name.
 As Kevin suggests, adding no support to the unqualified AND incompetent gives a mix of distane and miss trust throughout the business, which is all the customer will experience, as we know.
 Economics in larger company's leave no room for profit these days either. Bottom line staff, top level hourly rates in a dealer sales network planet wide, and they STILL can't make any money.  (referring to G.M's bail out not so long ago)
Seems to me anyway....

[pscocoa]

Never mind waiting for next week - Audi advised just now it is still not starting properly.

I have just been down to see the car  - whilst the problem is apparently much improved they are not happy with the starting from cold - I doubt if I had not known their concerns I would have attached any importance to the fact it turns over a few times before it starts - but they seem adamant it is not right.

The focus is on fuel pressure - it has had new lift pump, injectors, ECR valve, glo plugs, cylinder head, and they are now looking at temperature sensors again. All fuel services, lines have been checked and cleaned - dealer wants to change engine ECU but Audi will not approve.

I wonder if it a factor that they are not driving car more than 2 or 3 miles when testing given it has been there since September.

[Lazydocker]

Never mind waiting for next week - Audi advised just now it is still not starting properly.

I have just been down to see the car  - whilst the problem is apparently much improved they are not happy with the starting from cold - I doubt if I had not known their concerns I would have attached any importance to the fact it turns over a few times before it starts - but they seem adamant it is not right.

The focus is on fuel pressure - it has had new lift pump, injectors, ECR valve, glo plugs, cylinder head, and they are now looking at temperature sensors again. All fuel services, lines have been checked and cleaned - dealer wants to change engine ECU but Audi will not approve.

I wonder if it a factor that they are not driving car more than 2 or 3 miles when testing given it has been there since September.

IMHO it would certainly benefit from a good spanking

[albitz]

As would the so called mechanics who have been working on it.

[Gaffers]

Under US law this car would now be classed as a 'lemon' and you'd have the right to get your money back/have an entire new car 

[Lazydocker]

Under US law this car would now be classed as a 'lemon' and you'd have the right to get your money back/have an entire new car 

If Audi had any grace/good manners they would be doing the same.

A couple of years ago my father bought a Seat Altea as an ex-Demo, 9 month old car. It was actually the Area Manager's car and was very well specced. Unfortunately it had to visit the dealer on a weekly basis for the first 8 weeks of his ownership for a recurring fault so he told them (and the HP company) that it was unfit for purpose and that he would return the vehicle for a full refund. Within 24 hours of him informing them of this the area sales manager called and offered him a brand new replacement at no extra charge... Strangely enough he accepted after discussions with me I pointed out that they were basically offering him a Brand new vehicle at the price of a 2nd hand one, taking the biggest hit of depreciation

Basically I think Audi should be looking at the same deal, replacing it with a new one, but I doubt that'll happen

[pscocoa]

Under US law this car would now be classed as a 'lemon' and you'd have the right to get your money back/have an entire new car 

If Audi had any grace/good manners they would be doing the same.

A couple of years ago my father bought a Seat Altea as an ex-Demo, 9 month old car. It was actually the Area Manager's car and was very well specced. Unfortunately it had to visit the dealer on a weekly basis for the first 8 weeks of his ownership for a recurring fault so he told them (and the HP company) that it was unfit for purpose and that he would return the vehicle for a full refund. Within 24 hours of him informing them of this the area sales manager called and offered him a brand new replacement at no extra charge... Strangely enough he accepted after discussions with me I pointed out that they were basically offering him a Brand new vehicle at the price of a 2nd hand one, taking the biggest hit of depreciation

Basically I think Audi should be looking at the same deal, replacing it with a new one, but I doubt that'll happen

I think this has to be the strategy - thanks.

[Lazydocker]

Under US law this car would now be classed as a 'lemon' and you'd have the right to get your money back/have an entire new car 

If Audi had any grace/good manners they would be doing the same.

A couple of years ago my father bought a Seat Altea as an ex-Demo, 9 month old car. It was actually the Area Manager's car and was very well specced. Unfortunately it had to visit the dealer on a weekly basis for the first 8 weeks of his ownership for a recurring fault so he told them (and the HP company) that it was unfit for purpose and that he would return the vehicle for a full refund. Within 24 hours of him informing them of this the area sales manager called and offered him a brand new replacement at no extra charge... Strangely enough he accepted after discussions with me I pointed out that they were basically offering him a Brand new vehicle at the price of a 2nd hand one, taking the biggest hit of depreciation

Basically I think Audi should be looking at the same deal, replacing it with a new one, but I doubt that'll happen

I think this has to be the strategy - thanks.

If bought on finance then he should contact them and let them get involved

[pscocoa]

Today's saga -

Audi - "we need to service loan car (A4) please bring it in and we will give you A6".

Pitches up this morning at 8am on way to golf - so he is short of time which Audi knew about in advance.

Issue 1 - electronic bollards frozen at Audi so cannot get cars in or out - waits for boiling water treatment - pushed for time now

Issue 2 - bollards cleared - next problem - someone has left a Q7 with a bust starter motor in entrance to garage - they cannot move - A6 trapped in behind it as well as everything else - he is out of time so has to leave it until Monday and goes off to golf.

They are going to put some miles on A3 this weekend as it has been stood for best part of 4 months - new sensors now fitted and they will test starting next week now.

[tunnie]

Looks like all dealers are universally crap!

[pscocoa]

You go in there and they are well meaning and spend time explaining why they cannot deal with the fault and it was only when I suggested they run the A3 for quite a few miles that the penny dropped that actually not having been used for this length of time might have a bearing on it.

We have raised the fitness for purpose issue as suggested by Lazydocker and Guffers and so will get onto this again next week.