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[Andy B]

......
I prefer what they have to the alternatives, such as handbrake mechanisms within the calipers - .....

Citroen amongst others have had problems with handbrakes that use the disc. As the disc has cooled down they've let go and allowed the car to roll away. Drum brakes as crude as they are, are aparently better suited to handbrakes.
Also if you've ever had the 'pleasure' of replacing the rear pads of an Hyundai Lantra you'd change your mind about disc operated handbrakes!  

[bob.dent]

I've just been catching up with this thread Idris and sorry to hear about this tale of woe.

I have a 1999 Omega 2.5 V6 CD Estate and can confirm that I get no brake creep whatsoever. Do you also want me to send you an e-mail stating this?

Good luck in getting it sorted.

[Idris]

Thanks.

I have now arranged to have the cars bled by the Vauxhall dealer, with the Tech 2 system I now know they must and do have ie operating the ABS valves electrically while pressure flushing the fluid.

If this fixes it - fine, If not I will get an after-market ABS valve block and hope that fixes it. If not, despite it being the biggest estate car (of a type that suits my model aircraft - long but not necessarily that tall) I may well decide to get rid of it because I could never be happy driving anything with such a big question mark over its ability to stop when I need it to.

If the MOT requirement is only for a handbrake that gives no percetible braking on the move, it simply is not good enough! On a 1960 Alvis TD21 DHC years ago - disc fronts, drum rears - a calipern bolt sheared miles from home and allowed the calipers to pivot so that the pads, if operated, ran on the rusty outer perimiter of the disc. I continued my 70 mile journey carefully, using just the handbrake, with no problems at all

Idris




Idris

[Omegatoy]

Wel i have just read this thread, and i have to say the things that would cause a pedal creep is/are
most common someone has replaced the brake pads without opening the bleed nipples and forced the master cylinder seals to turn itself this will result in a reasonable pedal at first then  sinking to the floor and is bloody dangerous!!!!
Second a worn bore in the master cylinder will allow a small amout of brake fluid back past the seal intothe reservoir and the pedal will pump up but continue to fall down!! are you sure they replaced the whole mastercylinder and not just the plastic bit on the top??
Air in ABS system which will slowly compress and allow the pedal to creep but should stop and will also give a low problem sometimes the only way to slear it is to find a private stretch of road and do replated hard high speed stops trying to lock the brakes every time, this activates the pump modulator  thus forcing the bubbles out  of the accumulator, this treatment was the only way to cure a Lotus Carlton of its piss poor performance braking and the owner now reports a nice firm progressive pedal,
and the nost unlikely but if the car is used gently is a sticking usually rear caliper piston but this usually means a soggy unfeeling? pedal which cannot be bled properly despite appearing to flow nothing but clean fluid. although it can sink to a certain amount as the fluid becomes cavitated with the large airbubbles being forced to smaller almost miniscule ones under pressure!!
Omegatoy
edit
none of the asbove will actually show a loss of fluid!!

[Idris]

Thanks, all makes sense.

The master cylinder, as seen in he engine bay looks new, though I did not see it fitted nor was I given the old one.

Again, this has to be a fluid leak (albeit within the system) not air in the system because air acts like a spring - giving a soggy brake pedal - and the pedal goes up and down in response to more and less pedal pressure whereas a fluid leak gives slow steady downward movement and no up movement until pedal pressure is reduced to below that of the return spring.

I agree that it is bloody dangerous - especially as it has got worse and worse over less than 50 miles - and the supposed 30% efficiency of the handbrake as tested on a rolling road translates to hardly eny slowing down at all on the road! What baffles me is that so many mechanics seem to think it is not a problem!  For a start, having to push the pedal that far down even before the creep starts adds feet to stopping distances in an emergency.

I am convinced that it is leaking ABS valves and hope that the Tech 2 bleeding process, which activates them, will  fix it, without the risks invoklved in repeated sudden stops on surfaces slippery enough to trigger valve operation.

If the Tech 2 system does not solve the problem and I am faced with buying a replacement from BBA or whoever, does anyone know whether

(a) it is possible or sensible for an amateur to remove the existing ABS valve block?

(b) for an amateur to take the existing one apart to try to find the fault and repair it?

(c) as above but an averagely competent mechanic rather than a specialist?


Obviously I do not wish to take any risks

Cheers

Cheers

[Idris]

For reasons that become obvious below, I would like as many as possible to do the following test and email me the results:

1/ Sit in the driver's seat with the engine running.

2/ Press moderately hard on the brake pedal - and keep the same pressure applied for up to a minute.

3/ There are only two possible results - either:

(a) once the initial free play and compressibility have been taken up in the first second or so, the pedal stays where it is.

(b)  once the initial free play and compressibility have been taken up in the first second or so, the pedal moves down slowly but steadily.

If in doubt, try holding a long stick or broom handle or whatever so that the bottom end rests on the brake pedal alongside your foot and the upper end rests against the edge of the steering wheel, making it easy to see any continuing movement rather than rely on "feel".

Either way, please confirm the following

More movement or not, make and model, age, petrol or diesel, ABS or not.

For hydraulic brakes only of course, not rod or cable!

Thanks

I have just collected my 2001 Vauxhall Omega for the 6th time, and the fault symptom remains the same (in kind, worse still in extent). When I do the above test, the pedal creeps downward under constant pressure, reaching the end of travel (now) within 5 seconds or so/

Amazingly, a brand new, unsold Vectra at the dealer's does the same - BUT WORSE! With relatively light pressure, the pedal continues to move down quite rapidly until it hits the end stop with an audible click! Apparently they all do this, and no one else has noticed and they sell them by the hundred!

I refuse to believe that anyone in his right mind would design a brake system to do this - quite apart from the safety and lack of confidence aspects, how can drivers control braking properly if the pedal keeps moving down - and what happens in a high speed stop, when the pedal hits the end of travel - inevitably taking some of the availble foot pressure - before the car stops?

I now intend to get the ABS valve block checked and if necessary replaced.

A friend rang to tell me that Watchdog on BBC this week referred to an unidentified "British" car manufacturer has a major safety problem that they refuse to recognise - I wonder if this is it?


Idris  reply by email to irfrancis@onetel.com

[TheBoy]

For reasons that become obvious below, I would like as many as possible to do the following test and email me the results:

1/ Sit in the driver's seat with the engine running.

2/ Press moderately hard on the brake pedal - and keep the same pressure applied for up to a minute.

3/ There are only two possible results - either:

(a) once the initial free play and compressibility have been taken up in the first second or so, the pedal stays where it is.

(b)  once the initial free play and compressibility have been taken up in the first second or so, the pedal moves down slowly but steadily.

If in doubt, try holding a long stick or broom handle or whatever so that the bottom end rests on the brake pedal alongside your foot and the upper end rests against the edge of the steering wheel, making it easy to see any continuing movement rather than rely on "feel".

Either way, please confirm the following

More movement or not, make and model, age, petrol or diesel, ABS or not.

For hydraulic brakes only of course, not rod or cable!

Thanks

I have just collected my 2001 Vauxhall Omega for the 6th time, and the fault symptom remains the same (in kind, worse still in extent). When I do the above test, the pedal creeps downward under constant pressure, reaching the end of travel (now) within 5 seconds or so/

Amazingly, a brand new, unsold Vectra at the dealer's does the same - BUT WORSE! With relatively light pressure, the pedal continues to move down quite rapidly until it hits the end stop with an audible click! Apparently they all do this, and no one else has noticed and they sell them by the hundred!

I refuse to believe that anyone in his right mind would design a brake system to do this - quite apart from the safety and lack of confidence aspects, how can drivers control braking properly if the pedal keeps moving down - and what happens in a high speed stop, when the pedal hits the end of travel - inevitably taking some of the availble foot pressure - before the car stops?

I now intend to get the ABS valve block checked and if necessary replaced.

A friend rang to tell me that Watchdog on BBC this week referred to an unidentified "British" car manufacturer has a major safety problem that they refuse to recognise - I wonder if this is it?


Idris  reply by email to irfrancis@onetel.com

I have tried this a couple of times now since your original post.

My Omega does NOT have this fault. No creep.

1998 Omega MV6 - mini facelift, so ABS/TC 5.3 (the newer ABS system fitted to post 98 cars).  I can probably get the ECU model/part no from Tech2 if you require...

A (non abused) brake pedal hitting the floor is NOT normal.

I wonder if any of our police and MOT testers care to comment...

[MaxV6]

My Omega (98built 99reg 3.0 V6 Elite Estate auto. )  does NOT do this... nor , to my knowledge, do any of the others i have driven in the last 5 years.


I rest my foot on the brake pedal a lot....  believe you me.,  I'd bloody well notice.

For the record, Nor does our V6 Sintra....  although it's had it's share of brake problems....  including requiring a new ABS block...  none of them have had symptoms remotely resembling this...


Max

[Marks DTM Calib]

2000 2.5V6 CDx Facelift Saloon Manual - 57K miles full service history

No pedal creep

1998 3.0V6 Ex-plod Mini facelift estate auto - 88K miles full service history

No pedal creep

1999 2.5V6 CDx Mini facelift Saloon Manual - 137K miles full service history

No pedal creep


I have spoken to a few people in the know....they have seen it on very high mileage Vectra B's with poor service history and it was cured every time by replacement of the master cylidner.....

They recommend contacting Vauxhall customer service directly at Luton (and one of them works at Luton!). Simply explain the faults to them and run through the issues with the dealer......point out how dangerous this would be if decending a hill......

[Idris]

Thanks, confirming that this creep is NOT normal. I guess it is always possible that the new master cylinder is faulty, and I need to be pretty sure that my problem is really in the ABS valve block before spending £400+ for a replacement and more again to fit it.

Any ideas on how the valve block could be checked? Ideally without dismantling or removing but by disconnecting pipes eg

The block clearly must have 4 pipes leading to the 4 wheels, either 1 or 2 pipes from the master cylinder (2 for dual circuit brakes?) and another pipe to take fluid legitimately passed by the ABS valves, back to the reseivoir part of the system. It occurs to me that if that return pipe could be identified and opened up, leakage of fluid through one or more of the valves would be bound to show up as fluid coming from the valve block to that pipe.


Does anyone know a properly competent garage either in West London or Hampshire - or for that matter anywhere else nearby - who could investigate and if necessary fit a new block?

I will now ring Vauxhall customer service - although I know that the Network Q specialist has been involved again this time

Cheers

Idris

[RichardB]

Hello Idris

My brother used a mechanic in Tolworth (next town on from Kingston Upon Thames).  The mechanic was also used by 4 of his work colleagues who rated him highly.  His name is Steve and his business is called Sunray Motors tel: 0208 337 7866.

It's just him on his own in a large domestic style garage but he has all the gear and more importantly, knows his stuff.  He's very thorough, very reliable and does a decent honest job. Plus his prices are very reasonable.  Knowing some of the people who recommended him I think he will sort your problem out.

If he's too far away you might want to look up "Good garages" on the Honest John site: www.honestjohn.co.uk.  There are a few garages in West London on there.

I tried my brake pedal tonight and it was solid.  Didn't budge.  Never has though.

[Markjay]

Thanks, confirming that this creep is NOT normal. I guess it is always possible that the new master cylinder is faulty, and I need to be pretty sure that my problem is really in the ABS valve block before spending £400+ for a replacement and more again to fit it.

Any ideas on how the valve block could be checked? Ideally without dismantling or removing but by disconnecting pipes eg

The block clearly must have 4 pipes leading to the 4 wheels, either 1 or 2 pipes from the master cylinder (2 for dual circuit brakes?) and another pipe to take fluid legitimately passed by the ABS valves, back to the reseivoir part of the system. It occurs to me that if that return pipe could be identified and opened up, leakage of fluid through one or more of the valves would be bound to show up as fluid coming from the valve block to that pipe.


Does anyone know a properly competent garage either in West London or Hampshire - or for that matter anywhere else nearby - who could investigate and if necessary fit a new block?

I will now ring Vauxhall customer service - although I know that the Network Q specialist has been involved again this time

Cheers

Idris

I use West End Vauxhall in Edgware Road (Vx Dealers) - I was not impressed with some aspects of their services but what I must say is that from the purely technical point of view they were very good - they did the cambelt on both my current and previous Omega, as well as the oil cooler, and all repairs were perfect and I had no problems with them. They charge around £45 for a basic diagnostic which is not unreasonable.

[Idris]

Thanks for both references - I will try Tolworth first as nearer - I know it well as a business partner of mine  lived there (and his wfe worked for the Civil Service in Tolworth Towers - on the Kingston bypass.

Idris

[BrianH]

Hi Idris
Been following your problem and just thought that I would mention a couple of problems that I had with my Omega brakes when I first purchased it. Mines a 99 2.5 Elite which I believe has same system as yours. It was brought from Network Q with 15000 miles.
The symptons I had were:
Very long pedal travel
In my mind a very spongey pedal.
This in my case made me lose confidence in the brakes especially as you mentioned when leaving motorways on slip roads, also unless hard pedal pressure maintained at lights etc car had tendancey to creep if you relaxed pressure slightly.

This went back to Vauxhall on at least 8 occasions with main man from Luton testing it twice. the system was bled every way possible new pads all round but still felt the same pedal went solid about
1 inch from floor but felt that it was against a stop.
If pedal stamped on hard wheels would lock and ABS would cut in OK.
This resulted eventually in a rather polite discussion in the dealers Service managers office with the man from Luton where he informed me the brakes were within spec and they could carry out no further work under warranty and i might be more happy going back to a Ford.
After argument spilling out into showroom which was quite funny especially when i sugested that he should consider a Change of Career maybe to washing the cars we parted company.
At this point I must say the dealer service manager did continue to be extremely helpful after this episode.
Still getting to the point after now giving up with Vauxhall I decided tor start looking myself.
What I found and I don't think its been mentioned to you is that the Brake pedal travel can be adjusted at pedal and since I carried out this agjustment 6+ years ago now the brakes have been fine the pedal stops about two thirds of the way down which as the pedal is now closer to me gives a
lot more confidence whilst braking.
Might be worth a try or ask your garage to check it but be sure to retighten locknut after adjustment.

[Idris]

Thanks.

Passed through Alton today in Omega, asked opinion of Bentley/Rolls specialist I know well - he said he could not believe that anyone could consider the brake pedal creep normal or safe! Took it to the Tolworth chap, only yo find that he too denies there is any problem, would not even admit that the pedal keeps going down, said no point in him doing anything as he can see nothing wrong with it

I have ahd about 10 more emails all saying no pedal creep - not all Omegas - and that I should not give in.

Re last hepful reply - all agreed and understood, and I am in favour of taking out all available slack in the pedal mechanism. But Tolworth chap, testing on slight incline, says they start to bite at 1" travel, so that is normal, - but spongy so treavel is long by time on hard - but after that comes creep.

Anyone feel like taking test drives in new(ish) Vauxhalls to see how many are bad?

I now have another contact to try. One email, indrectly from service manager of a Ford dealer said it must be the ABS valves

Idris