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Author Topic: I still think that Vista sux.  (Read 5019 times)

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Paul M

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Re: I still think that Vista sux.
« Reply #30 on: 26 October 2007, 00:36:17 »

I haven't used Vista much but when I did the performance was OK, full Aero Glass on a Core2Duo with 2 gig RAM. It did have issues with a few pieces of software I tried to use on it.

Haven't used it for a while as I've long since converted to Mac OS X, but I booted into Vista a few days ago to be helpfully informed that it has de-activated itself and I can't log in until I reactivate. Well thanks Microsoft, maybe I'd be better off getting a bloody pirate copy rather than use a legitimate one that de-activates for no reason at all (no hardware changes)... on second thoughts I think I'll just remove the damn thing.

I have an XP Pro VMWare machine for running the odd Windows app that I need, but I find that's pretty rare since I've found suitable OS X substitutes for most of the stuff I need, including a few open source UNIX apps that I can compile and run on Apple's X11 interface.

Oh and Amarok is a fantastic music player, you can get that for just about every current OS except Windows! http://amarok.kde.org
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TheBoy

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Re: I still think that Vista sux.
« Reply #31 on: 26 October 2007, 18:51:45 »

Vista can run well given the right amount of hardware.

I installed it for a laugh on our OOF server before I put W2k3 on it, and it flew. From the end of the BIOS POST test to being able to use, less than 10s - with all the usual slowing down software (office and AV) installed.

My MCE runs Vista, had to upgrade to 2G from 1G RAM, which has improved matters, but still sluggish at times (3.2G P4)

I like Macs, always have, until they went unix based - I have a distrust of the Linux (and similar BSD) kernel.  Too many years working with it has proven its instability to me.  And the whole X11 thing is an overgrown, over engineered piece of bloatware.


Vista's biggest issue is with the 3rd party software companies being too slow/stupid to deal with the OS changes, same as when XP came out.
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omegalord

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Re: I still think that Vista sux.
« Reply #32 on: 26 October 2007, 19:56:04 »

Quote
Vista can run well given the right amount of hardware.

I installed it for a laugh on our OOF server before I put W2k3 on it, and it flew. From the end of the BIOS POST test to being able to use, less than 10s - with all the usual slowing down software (office and AV) installed.

My MCE runs Vista, had to upgrade to 2G from 1G RAM, which has improved matters, but still sluggish at times (3.2G P4)

I like Macs, always have, until they went unix based - I have a distrust of the Linux (and similar BSD) kernel.  Too many years working with it has proven its instability to me.  And the whole X11 thing is an overgrown, over engineered piece of bloatware.


Vista's biggest issue is with the 3rd party software companies being too slow/stupid to deal with the OS changes, same as when XP came out.

Exactly! , XP didnt run as good as it does now when that first came out either. But you have to update. Everybody was saying against XP (naaa stick with 2000/98 etc) , until the benefits of having the latest os was apparant.

Matt
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Paul M

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Re: I still think that Vista sux.
« Reply #33 on: 26 October 2007, 20:41:53 »

Quote
Vista can run well given the right amount of hardware.

I installed it for a laugh on our OOF server before I put W2k3 on it, and it flew. From the end of the BIOS POST test to being able to use, less than 10s - with all the usual slowing down software (office and AV) installed.

My MCE runs Vista, had to upgrade to 2G from 1G RAM, which has improved matters, but still sluggish at times (3.2G P4)

It runs OK on my system with 2G RAM, but seeing that it has the ability to spontaneously de-activate itself is causing me far more concern. Yet another case of Microsoft (and countless others) making life difficult for legitimate users while those using cracked pirate copies have no such issues  >:(. It reminds me of when music labels started putting that "anti-ripping" stuff onto CDs to stop people putting music they had paid for onto an MP3 player -- of course the pirate copies had no such limitations so you were actually getting a better product by getting a counterfeit from a local car boot sale or whatever :(

Quote
I like Macs, always have, until they went unix based - I have a distrust of the Linux (and similar BSD) kernel.  Too many years working with it has proven its instability to me.  And the whole X11 thing is an overgrown, over engineered piece of bloatware.

OS X is light years ahead of Classic (OS 9 and older), it's akin to going from Win98 to Win2K. And the BSD kernel has proven to be stable over many years in many environments, so for desktop use I don't think stability is the least bit of an issue. I wouldn't say it's any better than the NT kernel in that respect, they're both pretty solid. X11 isn't part of Mac OS per-se, it simply includes an (optional) X11 server so you can run UNIX apps that aren't available natively for OS X (the Aqua interface). It is a bit of a kludge as X11 apps don't really fit in with the MacOS interface (things like they have their own menu bar), but it allows me to run programs like Amarok that are currently not available for Mac (nor Windows for that matter). Version 2 of Amarok is planned to be released for Mac and Windows though so that's one program I'll be able to run natively sometime soon.

I've thought about trying a Mac for ages, and it wasn't so long ago I gave into the temptation. I can't say I regret it one bit. I still use WinXP almost every weekday at uni, but at home I very seldom boot into Windows, and that's going to become even less frequent after my de-activation issue with Vista. It's not for everyone but if you're fed up with Windows I recommend giving it a shot if you have the opportunity.
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MikeDundee

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Re: I still think that Vista sux.
« Reply #34 on: 26 October 2007, 20:44:55 »

I don't have Visa, so I can't comment ::)
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MikeDundee

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Re: I still think that Vista sux.
« Reply #35 on: 26 October 2007, 20:46:15 »

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I don't have Visa, so I can't comment ::)

Apologies should have read don't have Vista ;D

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Paul M

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Re: I still think that Vista sux.
« Reply #36 on: 26 October 2007, 20:47:36 »

Quote

Exactly! , XP didnt run as good as it does now when that first came out either. But you have to update. Everybody was saying against XP (naaa stick with 2000/98 etc) , until the benefits of having the latest os was apparant.

Matt

The difference this time is that there's no compelling reason to upgrade for home users. When XP came out most of them were on Win98 or (god forbid) Windows Millennium, as Win2k was primarily an enterprise product. So WinXP brought some real, major, advantages to those users -- namely memory protection, multi user support and all the other benefits of the NT product line. It was a slightly painful transition but the rewards were there in that your system wouldn't spontaneously blue screen because of one rogue app, the system wouldn't munge itself to the point it needed reinstalled every 6 months etc.

Vista offers nowhere near the benefits over XP for home users, and corporate users won't be switching en-masse for some time as corporate IT policy tends to move at a snails pace. Yes it will become the default desktop over time due to Microsoft's pervasive OEM agreements, but I'm seeing almost zero enthusiasm for it, and many people are actively trying to avoid it.
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Paul M

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Re: I still think that Vista sux.
« Reply #37 on: 26 October 2007, 20:48:09 »

Quote
Quote
I don't have Visa, so I can't comment ::)

Apologies should have read don't have Vista ;D


 ;D Thought you were about to sing the praises of Mastercard there!
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TheBoy

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Re: I still think that Vista sux.
« Reply #38 on: 26 October 2007, 21:27:02 »

Quote
but seeing that it has the ability to spontaneously de-activate itself is causing me far more concern. Yet another case of Microsoft (and countless others) making life difficult for legitimate users while those using cracked pirate copies have no such issues  >:(. It reminds me of when music labels started putting that "anti-ripping" stuff onto CDs to stop people putting music they had paid for onto an MP3 player -- of course the pirate copies had no such limitations so you were actually getting a better product by getting a counterfeit from a local car boot sale or whatever :(
That fault was fixed ages ago.

In fairness to MS, they have to do something to deter the casual pirate. And they do a reasonable job in stopping the good pirates. Activation is fairly non intrusive for most users who are internet connected, and simple enough for those that aren't.

Quote
OS X is light years ahead of Classic (OS 9 and older), it's akin to going from Win98 to Win2K. And the BSD kernel has proven to be stable over many years in many environments, so for desktop use I don't think stability is the least bit of an issue. I wouldn't say it's any better than the NT kernel in that respect, they're both pretty solid. X11 isn't part of Mac OS per-se, it simply includes an (optional) X11 server so you can run UNIX apps that aren't available natively for OS X (the Aqua interface). It is a bit of a kludge as X11 apps don't really fit in with the MacOS interface (things like they have their own menu bar), but it allows me to run programs like Amarok that are currently not available for Mac (nor Windows for that matter).
Thats part of my point - OSX (and Linux/BSD) is disjointed.

Thats why I would always recommend Windows as desktop for most people...
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theolodian

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Re: I still think that Vista sux.
« Reply #39 on: 27 October 2007, 08:41:23 »

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Thats why I would always recommend Windows as desktop for most people...
I thought it was ready for that, and told SWMBO that she'd be fine on Vista, but this brings me back to my original point.  We now have to find which printers are known to work with Vista and buy one, same with USB memory sticks.  Ours are less than a year old, but just because you can't buy most laptops with XP any more we have to waste money and fill landfills with perfectly good printers, etc.  Maybe they should have covered MS wholesale filling tips in the RoHS and WEEE directives?  ::)

I think that Vista will be fine in a year or so when other companies catch up, but in the meanwhile I want the option of XP.

I will be upgrading to Leopard when I go home at Xmas.  Hopefully OpenOrifice works on that or will be available soon.
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Dave-C

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Re: I still think that Vista sux.
« Reply #40 on: 27 October 2007, 08:52:58 »

Quote
Quote
I don't have Visa, so I can't comment ::)

Apologies should have read don't have Vista ;D



We take American Express Daz....  :-*
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Dave-C

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Re: I still think that Vista sux.
« Reply #41 on: 27 October 2007, 08:58:18 »

Big fan of XP and 98 personally, however I have Vista on my Tosh...  I did find a problem at one point, which was USB  / Com port adaptor drivers, I got in touch with MS, they sorted it in 2 days with a download...  Credit where due... other than that they I know little about these things, other than building my own PC etc.. Not exactly rocket science..

DC
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Paul M

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Re: I still think that Vista sux.
« Reply #42 on: 27 October 2007, 13:11:46 »

Quote
Quote
but seeing that it has the ability to spontaneously de-activate itself is causing me far more concern. Yet another case of Microsoft (and countless others) making life difficult for legitimate users while those using cracked pirate copies have no such issues  >:(. It reminds me of when music labels started putting that "anti-ripping" stuff onto CDs to stop people putting music they had paid for onto an MP3 player -- of course the pirate copies had no such limitations so you were actually getting a better product by getting a counterfeit from a local car boot sale or whatever :(
That fault was fixed ages ago.

In fairness to MS, they have to do something to deter the casual pirate. And they do a reasonable job in stopping the good pirates. Activation is fairly non intrusive for most users who are internet connected, and simple enough for those that aren't.

How long ago is ages? Because it happened to me a week ago. Admittedly I haven't used the Vista install for a while so I may have missed some updates in that time, but that's no excuse. I haven't bothered trying to fix it because I have several other operating systems that work perfectly well and don't shut me out on a whim. I may just remove Vista rather than faff around trying to re-activate it.

The only thing activation does is prevent "accidental" piracy -- where someone installs something using an invalid licence or similar. Anyone who actually intends to pirate it will just download a crack (or more likely will download a complete ISO for the installer that is already cracked).

Quote
Quote
OS X is light years ahead of Classic (OS 9 and older), it's akin to going from Win98 to Win2K. And the BSD kernel has proven to be stable over many years in many environments, so for desktop use I don't think stability is the least bit of an issue. I wouldn't say it's any better than the NT kernel in that respect, they're both pretty solid. X11 isn't part of Mac OS per-se, it simply includes an (optional) X11 server so you can run UNIX apps that aren't available natively for OS X (the Aqua interface). It is a bit of a kludge as X11 apps don't really fit in with the MacOS interface (things like they have their own menu bar), but it allows me to run programs like Amarok that are currently not available for Mac (nor Windows for that matter).
Thats part of my point - OSX (and Linux/BSD) is disjointed.

Thats why I would always recommend Windows as desktop for most people...

I don't find it disjointed at all. unless you actually delve into the UNIX side of things using the terminal and installing X11 apps, which 99% of casual users will never do. It "just works" in almost all cases. Oh and the installer has no activation, no "genuine (dis)advantage" and other crap like that, in fact you don't even need a CD key. Fair enough Apple has much less of an exposure to piracy due to the closed hardware platform, but there is absolutely nothing to stop a Mac owner who is running Tiger (OS X 10.4) or even Panther (OS X 10.3) from borrowing a copy of Leopard and installing it without paying for a licence. But the way I see it, if someone wants to do that they will work out a way to do it, CD key or not. I am running Tiger at the moment, but I may pop over to my local Apple store (20 seconds walk from my house!) to have a look at Leopard. It costs £85 retail (there's probably a 15% student discount available, I haven't checked yet) or you can get a family pack licence (for up to 5 Macs in the same house) for £129. Pretty good value IMO.
« Last Edit: 27 October 2007, 13:13:41 by Paul_M »
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TheBoy

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Re: I still think that Vista sux.
« Reply #43 on: 27 October 2007, 17:54:49 »

Paul M - it was in the early summer that activation thing was fixed.

WPA/WGA deter more than accidental copying.  Yes, you or I could (temporarily) work round it, but the majority of people couldn't.  It also stops the small PC shops putting copies on rather than proper licenced one (a massive problem before XP SP1). They don't dare now knowing the next set of updates will break it.

Yes, like CSS on DVD, or the already part broken AACS used on Blu Ray, it won't stop people who know what they are doing, will will stop the majority of the population.


Apple make their money on hardware.  As its now possible to mostly run OSX on non mac hardware, its only a matter of time before Apple start implementing similar - too many people will illegally use it if its easy enough, even at the low price.  The broadband revolution has given the 'techie' types a mentally that they shouldn't have to pay for anything.
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Paul M

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Re: I still think that Vista sux.
« Reply #44 on: 27 October 2007, 18:16:33 »

Quote
Paul M - it was in the early summer that activation thing was fixed.

Interesting that mine has just broken then. I'm going to boot into it now and try to reactivate over the net. If that doesn't work I'm wiping it, because frankly I'm not paying to call MS for the priviledge of activating a legal system that spontaneously de-activated -- how long will it be before it happens again?

Quote
WPA/WGA deter more than accidental copying.  Yes, you or I could (temporarily) work round it, but the majority of people couldn't.  It also stops the small PC shops putting copies on rather than proper licenced one (a massive problem before XP SP1). They don't dare now knowing the next set of updates will break it.

Yes, like CSS on DVD, or the already part broken AACS used on Blu Ray, it won't stop people who know what they are doing, will will stop the majority of the population.

But for most of these issues it only takes one person to break it, and the copies are all restriction free. This creates the crazy scenario where you can go down a market stall and spend £3 on a dodgy DVD that is otherwise identical to the £15 original, but has no artificial restrictions. Same goes for pirate games with their region protection on consoles or "no CD" cracks on PCs -- the copyright holders are actually driving potential customers, who are willing to pay for the product, to illegal sources so that they can get a better version without the artificial restrictions. And to be quite honest although I don't condone it, I have absolutely no sympathy for them. DRM is about exerting control beyond what fair use allows, not preventing copyright infringement.

Quote
Apple make their money on hardware.  As its now possible to mostly run OSX on non mac hardware, its only a matter of time before Apple start implementing similar - too many people will illegally use it if its easy enough, even at the low price.  The broadband revolution has given the 'techie' types a mentally that they shouldn't have to pay for anything.

This has gone on since long before the broadband revolution, that has just made it easier. I remember when I was a kid and one of my mate's dad brought home the Windows for Workgroups 3.11 install disks from his work to put onto the home PC. Then it evolved to CD-ROMs for PCs and Playstations, people I knew in school would go to dodgy Sunday markets to buy copied CDs from shifty looking guys. I never owned a Playstation (or a PC back then) so I don't know if region locking was an issue but I wouldn't be surprised -- can't get the game you want because it's import only and won't work on your machine? Easy just buy a pirate version it works worldwide :-/

I think a lot of people are more than willing to pay for copyrighted works if the price is reasonable and they are offered reasonable fair use rights. The latter is where DRM and the like falls over, I simply refuse to buy (or even accept for free in promotions like Continental offered iTunes downloads when I booked flights) any DRM'd music as it hugely infringes on the fair use rights you get when you buy a CD. I'm seeing a similar issue with Windows these days when Microsoft believe it's OK to regularly check your PC just to make sure you haven't switched your licensed copy of Windows for an illegal one. "If you're not doing anything wrong you've got nothing to worry about" is the usual argument -- so on that point it should be OK for MI5 to install security cameras in everyone's house to make sure you're not assembling bombs or whatever... Step too far IMO.
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