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Author Topic: Cambelt help!  (Read 2078 times)

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VX1

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Cambelt help!
« on: 04 September 2010, 22:10:51 »

Just a brief discription to let you know whats happened.
Engine out of car
stripped down to cambelt
turned engine over by hand to get camshafts and crankshaft to alignment marks. Inserted cam locking tools into cam sprockets, locked cranshaft with crankshaft locking tool, released tension from tensioners then removed belt.

Now I have come to put all new rollers and tensioners on and refit with new cambelt. Camshafts and crankshaft still in alignment, fitted rollers and tensioners then fitted cambelt as per instructions, then it was time to turn engine over manually to see if any further adjustments are needed, got to about 15 degrees of turning over and it stopped solid. I did not proceed any further but turned the engine anticlockwise back to the original position.
 What has happened?
Why did it happen?
Nothing was moved or touched before new cambelt kit was fitted.
What happens now?
Any ideas? Can anyone help with this confusion? I am baffled as to what has/went wrong. Was hoping to get the engine back into the car this weekend.
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Kneepad

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Re: Cambelt help!
« Reply #1 on: 04 September 2010, 22:30:40 »

Quote
Just a brief discription to let you know whats happened.
Engine out of car
stripped down to cambelt
turned engine over by hand to get camshafts and crankshaft to alignment marks. Inserted cam locking tools into cam sprockets, locked cranshaft with crankshaft locking tool, released tension from tensioners then removed belt.
.

Was that with No 1 cylinder at TDC ?
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VX1

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Re: Cambelt help!
« Reply #2 on: 04 September 2010, 22:31:55 »

Yep. everything checked.
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tidla

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Re: Cambelt help!
« Reply #3 on: 04 September 2010, 22:50:29 »

sorry. what work has been done to remove the engine?
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Andy H

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Re: Cambelt help!
« Reply #4 on: 04 September 2010, 22:58:39 »

Are the spark plugs still in? Could it just be the compression that you are fighting?

How is the engine supported? Is the clutch cover fouling on the engine stand?
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VX1

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Re: Cambelt help!
« Reply #5 on: 04 September 2010, 22:58:57 »

The engine is from another mig. Engine was perfectly sound except the cambelt needed replacement due to not knowing when it was last changed. Engine turned over manually before cambelt was removed.
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VX1

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Re: Cambelt help!
« Reply #6 on: 04 September 2010, 23:00:32 »

Quote
Are the spark plugs still in? Could it just be the compression that you are fighting?

How is the engine supported? Is the clutch cover fouling on the engine stand?

Plugs still in, Engine on a 205ltr barrel and it's an auto and the torque converter is clear of any obstructions
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tidla

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Re: Cambelt help!
« Reply #7 on: 04 September 2010, 23:07:36 »

inlet manifolds still attached?

turned over fine before old belt was removed?
« Last Edit: 04 September 2010, 23:09:08 by tapper888 »
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VX1

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Re: Cambelt help!
« Reply #8 on: 04 September 2010, 23:13:47 »

Quote
inlet manifolds still attached?
Nope, inlet manifolds removed.

turned over fine before old belt was removed?
Engine turned over manually before cambelt was removed.
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Jinglemaster2

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Re: Cambelt help!
« Reply #9 on: 04 September 2010, 23:49:12 »

Would be very easy if I had the car here.

When you say you turned the crank and it stopped daed, I presume you didn't try to force it all? On that assumption, it sounds as if you have got the belt on wrong somehow. If you haven't forced teh crank,. it is probably no harm done, but now the fun starts.

You will have to effectively strip the belt off and line evert thing up correctly. BUT you will have to be very careful to get the pistons to neuatral, ie all away from TDC (cannot remember the crank position for this, so best checked with a straw through teh plug holes until you gat all about the same hieght). Then relining the cams - dangerous bit, followed by correct alignment of the whole lot again.

IF this is what you need to do, then procedure would be to backwind the crank as above to neutral without forcing anything, Then releasing the timing belt by undoing the tensioner. This is VEY dangerous and you MUST keep all fingers away from the cam sprockets as they will or may suddenly spring around and nothing will stop them. They will very easily remove a finger, so be warned! Just because they haven't moved doesn't mean they wont!

then having removed the belt you will need to rotate each cam via the sproket nut clockwise until lined up with the timing marks on the back cover plate, before moving its pair carefully to match. then inserting the locking took. This is agin VERY dangerous and where you are most likely to take a finger clean off. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES get you fingers between the pair of cam sprokets. I cannot emphasise this enough!!!

One one pair is lined up, repeat for the other bank. Once all 4 cams are correct, refind TDC (doesn't matter which stroke as there is only one TDC until cams join in!) and lock crank. Now you can start with the belt again. The belt is fitted from crank, ANTI clockwise so crank, cam 4, cam 3, pulley, cam 2, cam 1, tensioner and finally crank./ The slack should only be on the tensioner side. So, so slack at all on right side of engine as you look from the front.

Once tensioner is on, check the alignment with the spec tool. It should be more or less right with a few thou. If so, remove the locks and rotate twice clockwise, relock crank and check with spec tool again. Any adjustments are done with either the tensioner or top guide depending on what needs moving in which direction.

Once done, remove locks and repeat until spot on.

ANY resistance at all and stop.

If you have any worries about tjhis at all, do NOT go any further until Marks DTM is back tomorrow. he will excpalin it better than I have.

Bottom line is getting all 6 pistons to a position where the valves cannot contact them. Once there you can effectively cut the timing belt off and not harm the engine. BUT I must say again, the cams may or may not decide to spring around. they give no warning and absolutely will not stop for a finger! ASUME THEY WILL MOVE!

the difficult part is getting the cams to their correct position. You get one, and whilst getting its pair, the first one springs around. Persevere. I have done it and it certainly works.

HTH
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Welung666

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Re: Cambelt help!
« Reply #10 on: 04 September 2010, 23:56:35 »

I agree with Mr. McB. Belt off and wind the crank anti-clockwise to 60° left of TDC (roughly, it doesn't have to be precise, it's just the safe position). Turn each cam to line up with the marks and refit the locking blocks until you are happy each bank matches/lines up perfectly. Once all 4 cams are lined up and locked, turn the crank clockwise to TDC and refit the belt. Then try to turn it over by hand. :y
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Jinglemaster2

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Re: Cambelt help!
« Reply #11 on: 05 September 2010, 00:04:04 »

Yep, but remove the cam and crank locks first! ;D
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Welung666

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Re: Cambelt help!
« Reply #12 on: 05 September 2010, 00:05:23 »

Quote
Yep, but remove the cam and crank locks first! ;D

Surely that's obvious ;D
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tidla

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Re: Cambelt help!
« Reply #13 on: 05 September 2010, 00:18:41 »

Quote
Quote
inlet manifolds still attached?
Nope, inlet manifolds removed.turned over fine before old belt was removed?
Engine turned over manually before cambelt was removed.

if the timing did not move between removing and refitting the belt.. i would check for a foreign object in the chambers.

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VX1

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Re: Cambelt help!
« Reply #14 on: 05 September 2010, 12:27:44 »

Quote
Would be very easy if I had the car here.

When you say you turned the crank and it stopped daed, I presume you didn't try to force it all? On that assumption, it sounds as if you have got the belt on wrong somehow. If you haven't forced teh crank,. it is probably no harm done, but now the fun starts.

You will have to effectively strip the belt off and line evert thing up correctly. BUT you will have to be very careful to get the pistons to neuatral, ie all away from TDC (cannot remember the crank position for this, so best checked with a straw through teh plug holes until you gat all about the same hieght). Then relining the cams - dangerous bit, followed by correct alignment of the whole lot again.

IF this is what you need to do, then procedure would be to backwind the crank as above to neutral without forcing anything, Then releasing the timing belt by undoing the tensioner. This is VEY dangerous and you MUST keep all fingers away from the cam sprockets as they will or may suddenly spring around and nothing will stop them. They will very easily remove a finger, so be warned! Just because they haven't moved doesn't mean they wont!

then having removed the belt you will need to rotate each cam via the sproket nut clockwise until lined up with the timing marks on the back cover plate, before moving its pair carefully to match. then inserting the locking took. This is agin VERY dangerous and where you are most likely to take a finger clean off. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES get you fingers between the pair of cam sprokets. I cannot emphasise this enough!!!

One one pair is lined up, repeat for the other bank. Once all 4 cams are correct, refind TDC (doesn't matter which stroke as there is only one TDC until cams join in!) and lock crank. Now you can start with the belt again. The belt is fitted from crank, ANTI clockwise so crank, cam 4, cam 3, pulley, cam 2, cam 1, tensioner and finally crank./ The slack should only be on the tensioner side. So, so slack at all on right side of engine as you look from the front.

Once tensioner is on, check the alignment with the spec tool. It should be more or less right with a few thou. If so, remove the locks and rotate twice clockwise, relock crank and check with spec tool again. Any adjustments are done with either the tensioner or top guide depending on what needs moving in which direction.

Once done, remove locks and repeat until spot on.

ANY resistance at all and stop.

If you have any worries about tjhis at all, do NOT go any further until Marks DTM is back tomorrow. he will excpalin it better than I have.

Bottom line is getting all 6 pistons to a position where the valves cannot contact them. Once there you can effectively cut the timing belt off and not harm the engine. BUT I must say again, the cams may or may not decide to spring around. they give no warning and absolutely will not stop for a finger! ASUME THEY WILL MOVE!

the difficult part is getting the cams to their correct position. You get one, and whilst getting its pair, the first one springs around. Persevere. I have done it and it certainly works.

HTH
Thanks Mr Mcb, sounds like that could be the problem, put the belt on clockwise not anticlockwise plus didn't move the crank back 60 degrees so this is very likely. Just to add, when the crank stopped I didn't force it any further I just stopped and moved it back. Lets hope this works.
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