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[albitz]

The father of one of the girls said much the same thing  on the radio today Rod.He was an intelligent professional person who understood that budgets are finite and that everything cant always be made absolutely safe. He was also adamant that many areas of this particular station were wholly unsafe and the company were fully aware of this,but they made a decision to do nothing about it even though their own inspectors had informed them of at least some of them years before,and then went to great efforts to cover up the facts after the girls were killed.
The combination of various factors including-
Trains banned from using horns as a warning
Short distance of visibility (although Bob Dent seems to think this isnt the case,and he is a local)
Non locking gates.
No way of warning that there is more than one train  approaching from more than one direction
The need to cross the track to obtain ticket, and then cross again to go to the direction of travel - which in busy times could easily lead to people wandering around in the track going in different directions to each other.....
It sounds like an accident waiting to happen. They knew all this, and did nothing until after the event,when the budget suddenly got much bigger and all sorts of improvements took place. Including a footbridge I believe.

[albitz]

now you will laugh, but when in London the signs "Look right" saved my arse many times

There ya go see. Don't get that in Europe for us pondy Brits do we...?

I've never got knocked down in Europe either (probably will now ). My brother's youngest nearly did 6 or 7yrs ago - was too busy playing on a handheld gayStation, was just about to walk out into a busy road without looking, fortunately we saw what was happening with about a yard to go.  Absolutely no common sense (then).

Too many posts to try to answer(although Im seriously tempted to mention the very fast back pedalling when the ban was mentioned) ,but - in reply to the highlighted part above.If you hadnt seen what was about to happen and the kid had stepped into the road and got killed.I presume your over riding feeling about the incident would have been "survival of the fittest.If your too stupid to cross prematurely and not look,then that can only have been a good thing for the seriously deplenished gene pool" ? If not,then why not ?

Agreed, but then there would be a phase where you would try to transfer the guilt onto someone/something else, be it the highway authority for not fixing barriers, etc etc. Is that the right thing to do though?

The fact is that it went to court,and the evidence against Railtrack was so overwhelming that they pleaded guilty.Thats nothing to do with guilt transferrence. They were criminally negligent and will hopefully suffer the consequences.
To my mind, genuine health and safety is a vital part of everyday life,but it has been given a bad name by the loony left who hijacked it for th purposes of their own agenda. That doesnt make it any less inportant when there is a genuine problem.

Bruce.If we were talking about grown adults I would tend to agree,but it was a couple of kids.Girls just into their teens, whose lives had hardly begun.Even if it was purely a matter of them making a mistake (which by all accounts it wasnt) it cannot to any reasonable person mean that the gene pool has been done a favour by them being removed from it.Thats just beneath contempt imo. Any copper I have spoken to in the past has always said,they get used to (up to a point) accidents etc. where adults get killed,but the ones with kids always get to them no matter how often it happens and what the circumstances are.

[D]

Causal factors relevant to the accident at Elsenham on 3 December 2005
395 The immediate cause of the accident was the two teenage girls stepping into the path of
an approaching train despite the continued display of a red light and the sounding of an
audible alarm.   
396 It is likely that the accident occurred due to the girls’ focus of attention on a train to
Cambridge (the Down train) and the consequent failure to perceive the risk from trains in
the opposite direction.  This focus of attention on the Down train to the exclusion of Up
trains was likely to have been created by a strong motivation to catch their intended train
combined with an erroneous belief that the audible alarm related only to the train that was
passing ahead of them.

I think that is enough for me. The rest of it is part of a blame culture IMHO.

With regards to NR suffering the consequences, you will probably find that it is the hard working ordinary person who will suffer as a result of increased fares etc. NR and its mangement will continue to get their bonuses as usual. The intention may be good, but..!

[albitz]

Those opinions may or may not be accurate,but they are opinions. No facts involved there,and I would imagine they were pronounced before the new evidence came to light three weeks ago.
Imo the members of management who ignored the previous warnings and advice from their own inspectors,and subsequently conspired to cover it up should be behind bars for a very long time. As you say though - unlikely.

[hotel21]

Bruce.If we were talking about grown adults I would tend to agree,but it was a couple of kids.Girls just into their teens, whose lives had hardly begun.Even if it was purely a matter of them making a mistake (which by all accounts it wasnt) it cannot to any reasonable person mean that the gene pool has been done a favour by them being removed from it.Thats just beneath contempt imo. Any copper I have spoken to in the past has always said,they get used to (up to a point) accidents etc. where adults get killed,but the ones with kids always get to them no matter how often it happens and what the circumstances are.

Albs.  Sad to say that on this subject we will have to agree to disagree.   

The young people in question were, I understand, circa 15 years of age.  Old enough to contemplate the world ahead of them and make career binding descisions as regards educational results etc etc as well as a sadly short time away from a whole host of legal responsibilities, en route to a further load at 17 and 18 years of age and beyond.

And a lot of educational responsibilities on behalf of their families and peer group.  And the educational system.

And about 10 years into the schooling system, teaching the basic 3 R's and lots of other important things such as basic reading, writing, and personal safety.  And that oft forgotten core product, common sense.

As said earlier by me, I am sad to see the demise of young lives but.  AND ITS A BIG BUT.  We (as a grown up nation) need to ensure that we instill basic core responsibilities into our kids as they grow and develop into young adults, as these victims were.  They must take some responsibilty for their own actions, surely.  Its no different to to crossing a busy road, picking up a red hot coal fallen from a fire, touching a gas ring, getting too close to the edge of a sheer drop or whatever.  I'm sure you can think of a host of similar scenarious as I can.

Yes, the rail track company could/should have also seen to their responsibilities but - where does the line in the sand get drawn?  Surely self preservation of the individual takes precedent over corporate responsibility?  If it looks dangerous, it probably is, so better take a bit of extra care?  As Mum/Dad/Granny/Auntie/Uncle?whatever taught us, not Nanny State?

Sorry, but I think we are at opposites here and unlikely to meet common ground anytime soon.

And I have replied to a post on a thread that I said I wouldn't.   

[hotel21]

Further edit.

I agree that the railtrack companies should not have covered upo notifications of failings etc but the core reasoning to my mind, remains the same.

The responsibility for personal safety is exactly that.

Personal ---- i.e. the sadly deceased.

[Marks DTM Calib]

The key thing here is that the crossing was designed and constructed within the safety needs as lai down, it therefore met the required safety.

There had been a document release some years before recommending that locking gates are fitted (not just to this crossing) but, this was a recommendation and not something that highlighted a fault (note these recommendations are always being published with some being extreme including one saying all level crossings should be replaced with bridges!).

There are issues where the locking gates trap people line side, this is very bad news and one could argue, more likely to occur then somebody crossing the line when alrams and lights are flashing. The method to get around this is to create large refuge areas and/or double gates (inner ones not being locking) which sadly can not be done on all sites.

The locking gates system worked well years ago when all crossings were man'ed.

This is a tragic accident but, the route cause is the victims who chose to ignore the warnings....

[Auto Addict]

For my 2p'th, everyone seems to be in such a hurry these days, if everyone showed a little patience and slowed down and thought, I'm sure there would be less accidents.

[LJay]

Sad as it is and I've not read the details.

The fact is you can make it fool proof but you can't make it idiot proof! 

Warnings are there for a reason and if a 14 year old decides to ignore them then that, ultimately, is their responsibility.  Kids of that age often have an air of invincibility about them, walking out into traffic etc., who's to say that didn't apply here.

We have a level crossing about half a mile away which is regularly closed to pick up bits of people, sad but their decision.

[cem_devecioglu]

The key thing here is that the crossing was designed and constructed within the safety needs as lai down, it therefore met the required safety.
 
1. if there occurs another accident similiar or at another point with same safety standards,  do community have to think or approve , these standards are adequate because of limited (finite) budget,  so its acceptable those people can continue to die ?

There had been a document release some years before recommending that locking gates are fitted (not just to this crossing) but, this was a recommendation and not something that highlighted a fault (note these recommendations are always being published with some being extreme including one saying all level crossings should be replaced with bridges!).
 
yep.. those crossings must be changed with bridges once and for all..


There are issues where the locking gates trap people line side, this is very bad news and one could argue, more likely to occur then somebody crossing the line when alrams and lights are flashing. The method to get around this is to create large refuge areas and/or double gates (inner ones not being locking) which sadly can not be done on all sites.

The locking gates system worked well years ago when all crossings were man'ed.
 
very important point, so this means the original desgn factors for the crossing changed!
 
This is a tragic accident but, the route cause is the victims who chose to ignore the warnings....
 
 
there will always be people who will ignore or cant .. they will be the next victims or not depends the decision of community spending more for those points.. (ie bridges)

[Kevin Wood]

The fact is you can make it fool proof but you can't make it idiot proof! 

Invent something idiot proof and someone just invents a better idiot.

Not just a saying but a fact of life.

We have never been as wrapped in cotton wool as we are today. It makes you wonder how anybody survived the early days of electricity and gas in the home, the days of germs in kitchens, threshing machines in fields, two world wars, factories before H&S inspections, underground stations without that irritating "Mind the gap" announcement, etc....

I guess people were more careful and didn't rush around in their own iPod-generated world oblivious and ignorant to anything going on around them.

[Dishevelled Den]

I guess people were more careful and didn't rush around in their own iPod-generated world oblivious and ignorant to anything going on around them.

In general terms, and making no reference to the OP or the unfortunate victims, I couldn't agree more.

[D]

As I said yesterday, I fail to see anyone from NR suffering:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gBLJqPUjIgurGfe99vQHEcHFS9cQ?docId=N0303051328204454888A

[blackviper90210]

Blame culture every time. The sooner we ALL held responsible for our own actions again, the better.

As sad as it is that 2 people especially children, lost they're lives, there was warning lights flashing AND an audiable alarm.    What is the difference between a car driving through a red light on a junction, just because he "thinks" nothing is coming and what these children did?

It was downright stupid....in several countries around the world, rail tracks are not fenced or sealed off, but open for as far as you can see. Do they go round suing the rail networks...I doubt it

[albitz]

Didnt sue the rail network afaik.The rail network were prosecuted for serious breaches of the law,and admitted their guilt.