Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Webby the Bear on 08 January 2013, 10:39:06
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hi guys hope you're all well. Ok so I've had a fuel consumption problem as I've posted about before. Had tech two done and only issue was lazy o2's and quite low maf reading (i can post those original results if you'd like as i finally found the thread lol) so i feel I've done everything possible that i should do to correct there lazy sensors. I've vacuum leak checked. I've replaced the MAF sensor. I've cleaned air filter. Replaced fuel filter. Put wyns fuel cleaner in. So. And I'm still getting same high consumption. So do you think its now time to replace the o2's? If so that would not be a bad time as i think I've wangled use of the two post ramps at school :-)
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lazy lambdas will increase consumption , as the car wont go correctly.. besides did you check Coolant temperature sensor..
and inlet air temperature sensor..
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lazy lambdas will increase consumption , as the car wont go correctly.. besides did you check Coolant temperature sensor..
and inlet air temperature sensor..
Cem you must have read my mind!! I was just about to post about the CTS to say i'd actually forgotten that. i havent tested it. the best i can do is get a multimeter on it and do a resistance check. unless there's any other test i can do?
i know how to test the AIT sensor so ill check that too.
clearly wasnt as close to my diagnosis as i thought ::)
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lazy lambdas will increase consumption , as the car wont go correctly.. besides did you check Coolant temperature sensor..
and inlet air temperature sensor..
Cem you must have read my mind!! I was just about to post about the CTS to say i'd actually forgotten that. i havent tested it. the best i can do is get a multimeter on it and do a resistance check. unless there's any other test i can do?
i know how to test the AIT sensor so ill check that too.
clearly wasnt as close to my diagnosis as i thought ::)
normally a faulty coolant temperature sensor causes rich mixture for prolonged periods but you must stay behind the car ;D
(darker exhaust smoke)
I also tried measuring it but passing through plastic shields I was not so sucessful (voltage as I was not sure of the cables).. readings were unreliable.. :-\
tech 2 shows better results for both..
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having said that i think the CTS results were good from my last techII and i still had the high consumption. ill post up when i get in tonight ;)
thanks cem :y :y :y
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ps, any idea what reading i should get at the MAF on a multimeter? i'm at school and i have a multimeter here so can quickly check it on my break :y
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having said that i think the CTS results were good from my last techII and i still had the high consumption. ill post up when i get in tonight ;)
thanks cem :y :y :y
be sure there is not even a pin hole on exhaust system (before lambdas).. it effects radically.
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ps, any idea what reading i should get at the MAF on a multimeter? i'm at school and i have a multimeter here so can quickly check it on my break :y
I remember I have seen the maf voltage somewhere else in OOF ;D but maf wont effect that much..
but a new maf will increase your consumption I bet.. (mine did)
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and one more , block your egr /if there exists)
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having said that i think the CTS results were good from my last techII and i still had the high consumption. ill post up when i get in tonight ;)
thanks cem :y :y :y
be sure there is not even a pin hole on exhaust system (before lambdas).. it effects radically.
so between exh. manifold and o2 sensor? how can i check for a pin hole if its so small? :-[
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having said that i think the CTS results were good from my last techII and i still had the high consumption. ill post up when i get in tonight ;)
thanks cem :y :y :y
be sure there is not even a pin hole on exhaust system (before lambdas).. it effects radically.
so between exh. manifold and o2 sensor? how can i check for a pin hole if its so small? :-[
you need to be under the car when its working.. otherwise you cant find.. (and if someone pushes accelerator it will be more audible and easy to detect)
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having said that i think the CTS results were good from my last techII and i still had the high consumption. ill post up when i get in tonight ;)
thanks cem :y :y :y
be sure there is not even a pin hole on exhaust system (before lambdas).. it effects radically.
so between exh. manifold and o2 sensor? how can i check for a pin hole if its so small? :-[
you need to be under the car when its working.. otherwise you cant find..
shouldnt be a problem mate. i can get it on the ramps here :y
if its a pin hole will i see smoke coming out of it?
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having said that i think the CTS results were good from my last techII and i still had the high consumption. ill post up when i get in tonight ;)
thanks cem :y :y :y
be sure there is not even a pin hole on exhaust system (before lambdas).. it effects radically.
so between exh. manifold and o2 sensor? how can i check for a pin hole if its so small? :-[
you need to be under the car when its working.. otherwise you cant find..
shouldnt be a problem mate. i can get it on the ramps here :y
if its a pin hole will i see smoke coming out of it?
yep.. if someone hammers it easier to find
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You'll also hear/feel it ;)
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having said that i think the CTS results were good from my last techII and i still had the high consumption. ill post up when i get in tonight ;)
thanks cem :y :y :y
be sure there is not even a pin hole on exhaust system (before lambdas).. it effects radically.
so between exh. manifold and o2 sensor? how can i check for a pin hole if its so small? :-[
you need to be under the car when its working.. otherwise you cant find..
shouldnt be a problem mate. i can get it on the ramps here :y
if its a pin hole will i see smoke coming out of it?
yep.. if someone hammers it easier to find
nice one mate.
i presume then also if there was a leak at the exh. manifold between it and the block (gasket) i'll see that too?
i dont think theres a manifold leak... never seen any smoke or anything in engine bay but hey, its another thing to check aint it :y
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having said that i think the CTS results were good from my last techII and i still had the high consumption. ill post up when i get in tonight ;)
thanks cem :y :y :y
be sure there is not even a pin hole on exhaust system (before lambdas).. it effects radically.
so between exh. manifold and o2 sensor? how can i check for a pin hole if its so small? :-[
you need to be under the car when its working.. otherwise you cant find..
shouldnt be a problem mate. i can get it on the ramps here :y
if its a pin hole will i see smoke coming out of it?
yep.. if someone hammers it easier to find
nice one mate.
i presume then also if there was a leak at the exh. manifold between it and the block (gasket) i'll see that too?
i dont think theres a manifold leak... never seen any smoke or anything in engine bay but hey, its another thing to check aint it :y
if there is a leak when you bought it you may never know you will think this sound is normal like as I do ;D :-[
unless it increases to a more severe state..
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having said that i think the CTS results were good from my last techII and i still had the high consumption. ill post up when i get in tonight ;)
thanks cem :y :y :y
be sure there is not even a pin hole on exhaust system (before lambdas).. it effects radically.
so between exh. manifold and o2 sensor? how can i check for a pin hole if its so small? :-[
you need to be under the car when its working.. otherwise you cant find..
shouldnt be a problem mate. i can get it on the ramps here :y
if its a pin hole will i see smoke coming out of it?
yep.. if someone hammers it easier to find
nice one mate.
i presume then also if there was a leak at the exh. manifold between it and the block (gasket) i'll see that too?
i dont think theres a manifold leak... never seen any smoke or anything in engine bay but hey, its another thing to check aint it :y
if there is a leak when you bought it you may never know you will think this sound is normal like as I do ;D :-[
unless it increases to a more severe state..
to be honest it sounds great (following a quick oil change and wynns). no bad noises at all touch wood.
i would have thought i'd have seen smoke in the engine bay though?
anyways ill do as you say and ill check that too :y :y
as my MAF was off of Ralph i was considering buying this cleaner. ive heard a lot of good stuff about it especially relating to cleaning mafs. would you agree...
http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_195717_langId_-1_categoryId_255223
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not sure Webby.. :-\
it depends on its components.. maf is a sensitive part ..
but some years ago my mechanic friend cleaned it with brake pad spray ;D
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thats seems suitable
http://www.amazon.com/CRC-05110-Mass-Sensor-Cleaner/dp/B000J19XSA (http://www.amazon.com/CRC-05110-Mass-Sensor-Cleaner/dp/B000J19XSA)
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I wouldn't advise cleaning the MAF with anything... They are very sensitive ;)
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If the lambda's are switching then the mixture is going to be pretty close to ok.
Hence it may well be the engine is ok and the power is being lost/consumed elsewhere
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thanks mark. If thats the case i wont need to worry about the o2 sensors as i wasnt looking forward to that. So looking at all the stuff I've done i can only think of compression or faulty injectors?
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I wouldn't advise cleaning the MAF with anything... They are very sensitive ;)
Second that - easy to cock them up ;)
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Just posted this on the school blog ::) but here's the plan of action...........................
Ok boys, I'm home, relaxed, I have my tool kit, a lamp light and I have a multi-meter borrowed from the lovely technician from school 8)
I'm praying someone can answer my Q's tonight as I only have this multi-meter for tonight (don't want to push my luck too much :))
These were the results from a TechII session with TB (thanks mate):
When he turned up, O2 BLMs:
Integrators, around 100 (low)
Idle (B1 - 190, B2 - 160) (high)
Partial Load, around 130 (good)
Air/fuel ratio (Rich/Lean) seemed sluggish at idle, flipped at about 1Hz at 2000rpm, lazy lamdas, both banks.
Reset BLMs, took for drive, all around the 130 mark, except at idle, when integrators crept to 150ish, with Air/Fuel showing lean until then, then flipped at 0.33 - 1Hz
Seemed slightly down on power to me, although Webby said otherwise. MID readings for instantaneous consumption seemed quite low - I'd expect mid to high 30s average when cruising 50-60mph, reality was mid/high 20s. MID has correct 035 config, and readings seem to match Webby's experience of it using more fuel recently. This leads me to suspect that the engine is really using that amount of fuel, rather than leaks (which I couldn't detect, or smell).
After test run, brakes still cold. EGR can get to about 55% before the thing really splutters. Injector cut-off exactly as expected.
MAF, at idle, with A/C off, 9kg/hr.
Last Sunday I got the EGR cleaned out (thanks Martin) and I did an oil change and she runs lovely and seems to want to go! ;) but still getting the high consupmtion.
People who know me know I have to have my house in order otherwise I get all confused hence the massive thread (so apologies fo that) but this is what I'm going to do. All you have to do is tell me if I'm wrong or right in my approach... oh and questions in red 8)
INTAKE AIR TEMP. (IAT) SENSOR
I've actually done this already tonight 8) As per Autodata it says to switch ignition off, disconnect the sensor, check ambient temp. and check resistance between the sensor terminals (two of them).
Autodata says ambient temp. should be 15-30oC. And the resistance readings as per below. I had just ran the car for about twenty minutes so things were ''toasty'' under there so I presume that's why I'm getting a high resistance reading of 2040 ohmes (2.04 on the 20k scale).
(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee402/webbybear1/IATMM_zps37bf477d.jpg)
MAS AIRFLOW (MAF) SENSOR
I haven't done this one yet as it's just started raining >:( (am going out there again irrespective of the rain as I'm determined to clear this up). Anyway the procedure I'm going to follow is this...I have two options for voltage... AC or DC. Which one should I use to check the voltage???
(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee402/webbybear1/MAFMM_zpse21e8740.jpg)
THROTTLE POSITION SENSOR (TPS)
Again, I haven't done this one because of the rain but again procedure I'll follow...When it says access TP sensor multi-plug terminals... but don't disconnect the multi-plug... wellhow the hell am I supposed to check it??? lol. And both of these checks on the image (Fig. 4 & Fig. 5) I'm supposed to check the actualsensor itself and not it's plug going in???
(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee402/webbybear1/TPSMM_zpsfca14d8a.jpg)
COOLANT TEMP. SENSOR (CTS)
Obviously, this isn't one for tonight but I want to get this bad boy done at the weekend. But here's the procedure I'm going to follow:
(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee402/webbybear1/CTSMM_zps4690553a.jpg)
CHECKING BATTERY VOLTAGE
I don't think this is going to affect fuel consumption (or could it???? ??? but I am aware it can affect performance and as I have the meter I may as well check it... should be 12.5, not drop below 10 on start up and go to around 14.5 when running, right???
EXHAUST LEAKS
As per Cem's posts (thanks for them mate) I am going to get the car up on the ramps at school and get someone to give it the beans while I'm underneath looking for smoke or any sign of exhaust leaks between the exhaust manifold and the O2 sensors.
If all of the above work out fine then I'm thinking I need to look at the commpression and do a leak down test. If that's ok then I'd have to reasonably conclude it's the injectors that are bad (leaking perhaps?)
Lot of info there but if someone could confirm all of the above I'll love you forever :-* :-* :-* :-* (not that I don't anyway you big set of girls :y :y :y
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Maf reading normal 9kg/hr mine was reading around 10-11..
IAT normal..
always use DC voltage.. also for maf
no need to mess with tps imo..
cts procdure seems ok
for battery voltage check Kevins thread about battery voltages
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90619.0 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90619.0)
ps: compression test is good idea.. :y
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Maf reading normal 9kg/hr mine was reading around 10-11..
IAT normal..
always use DC voltage.. also for maf
no need to mess with tps imo..
cts procdure seems ok
for battery voltage check Kevins thread about battery voltages
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90619.0 (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90619.0)
ps: compression test is good idea.. :y
Absolute legend Cem, Thank you.
You are the inaugral winner of the B.I.A.P.T trophy..... (Bear in a pick-up truck)
(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee402/webbybear1/bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb_zps24533e58.jpg)
:y :y :y :y
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Only one thing.....how do I do the 2nd test on the MAF where it says not to disconnect it and to run the car? I've done a bit of reading and I've read about using pins and ''back probing''. Is this what they need me to do with this test? If so any idea how I do it?
:y
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Only one thing.....how do I do the 2nd test on the MAF where it says not to disconnect it and to run the car? I've done a bit of reading and I've read about using pins and ''back probing''. Is this what they need me to do with this test? If so any idea how I do it?
:y
you need to insert needles through the cables.. and avometer probes on the needles :y
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Only one thing.....how do I do the 2nd test on the MAF where it says not to disconnect it and to run the car? I've done a bit of reading and I've read about using pins and ''back probing''. Is this what they need me to do with this test? If so any idea how I do it?
:y
you need to insert needles through the cables.. and avometer probes on the needles :y
Thanks mate. I think I'll get some supervision for that as I don't want to wreck everything.... but at least I can check the other things :y :y :y :y :y
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oh and one final question ( i think).....
when turning the crank to get the relevant piston at TDC, as i'll be using the ''tissue and screwdriver'' method... if i go past TDC compression and move on to power stroke, can i turn crank anti-clockwise to get it back? or is it one of those engines (the V6) that doesn't allow that? :)
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Is 01 sensor wide-band? 00?
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Is 01 sensor wide-band? 00?
omega dont use wideband sensors..
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oh and one final question ( i think).....
when turning the crank to get the relevant piston at TDC, as i'll be using the ''tissue and screwdriver'' method... if i go past TDC compression and move on to power stroke, can i turn crank anti-clockwise to get it back? or is it one of those engines (the V6) that doesn't allow that? :)
nope.. always clockwise..
ps: dont know about your "tissue and screwdriver" method ;D
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I always install same O2 sensor on all cars, I just attach original connector. You just need to know which wire goes where. $18 sensor.
I even installed the same 4 wire sensor on a car with 2-wire sensor.
This one:
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_premium-oxygen-sensor-bosch_20471661-p?searchTerm=oxygen+sensor+15122
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Right then chaps, productive evening and morning :y
MAF - Supply voltage good (checked the connection). Can't check the MAF voltage itself as I need to 'T' pin it and I'm not doing that without supervision because I know I'll 'dangle berries' it up and break something. However, just coming back to the TechII session it says I'm getting 9kg/hr. Not sure what this means (9kg of air passing through it per hour, perhaps??? :-\) but if other folk are getting 11kg/hr doesn't that confirm that the MAF is bad and needs replacing?
IAT - As per Cem's post this is good :y
TPS - I haven't tested this and I don't think I'm going to as I can't find any Net literature which says this will affect fuel economy (all I can find is symptoms relating to hesitation and power loss). I do have a spare throttle body & TPS from Ralf 8) so if I can test this off the car I will do and I'll replace if that's good just for the hell of it. :y
CTS - In short to get all that way to get the plenum off and the inlets out, I'm just going to replace this with a Vx genuine... I don't like ''chucking parts at it'' but ths part is just over £11 on TC. I'd rather just replace it for the sake of getting that far.
Exhaust leaks - Going to do this at the weekend. How much RPM should I raise it to and for how long? I'm presuming I'll see any leaks straight away so I'm just going to lay under the car while Dad is caining the throttle and see what I can see. 8)
Compression/Leak Down - trying to arrange this at school today for some time later this month.
Injector Servicing - if all of the above is good/done and still no change, I am going to have these serviced (thanks for the info on that Kevin Wood).
If the above doesn't resolve it then I'm stumped.
The only two other things I can think of to do is test the thermostat and O2 sensors. My car gets up to temp. within a few mins. I do notice that sometimes it will go up to say 95o and sometimes it will have dropped to 85o but it stays in that area and doesnt go any lower or any higher. I thought that was good?
Cheers guys. We will get this sorted!!! ;D 8) 8) 8)
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Thinking about it now the car all this morning was running around 85oC everytime I looked at it. Could it be this? :-\
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Thinking about it now the car all this morning was running around 85oC everytime I looked at it. Could it be this? :-\
newish models stay at lower temperatures as far as I know but not sure.. as mine is a historic model ;D
lets see what other members say.. :-\
ps: Webbie, cars consume more fuel in winter time as expected , what was your summer fuel avg ?
is your cambelt exactly aligned ?
sometimes Ecu retards ignition for some reason but not sure how you can detect it..
pps: last week I used my miggy on a heavy traffic whole day and it finished 30£s of fuel in a day..
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Thanks Cem :y
Drove back on B roads from school for 20 minutes and temp. gauge stayed at 85oC.... didn't hit the mid 90oC once. So do you guys think this could be the problem?
I had a thought whilst at college as we've been learning fuel systems (and more specifically air:fuel ratios).....
I've always wondered to myself if actually the MPG I'm getting is correct or not. I know TB said the MID was displaying some high consumption readings. But...
Should I get the car up to temp. and get a hydrocarbon exhaust emmission reading to raly verify the problem instead of going on what we believe it should be? If I have a rich mixture this will be shown in the high level of hydrocarbons and therefore will definitively confirm that she is running rich. If the hydrocarbons level is normal or close to the ''chemically correct'' air:fuel ratio then I can say I actually don't have a problem and it's just a thirsty car.... does that make sense?
:) :) :)
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Edit:
or would a high carbon monoxide reading be found? :y
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Just remember ... the temp you see on the gauge is NOT always the temp the ECU thinks the engine is .. two sensors .. one for gauge one for ECU..... they may be the same .. they may not .... To check the ECU temp you need to plug into a system that does live data.
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Just remember ... the temp you see on the gauge is NOT always the temp the ECU thinks the engine is .. two sensors .. one for gauge one for ECU..... they may be the same .. they may not .... To check the ECU temp you need to plug into a system that does live data.
That makes sense. So a new CTS (cheap) and a new thermostat would rule those potential issues out?
What do you think of getting the exh. emmissions results? I've just called Kwikfit and the cost will be a tenner so I'm thinking it would be worth it to have it definitely confirmed that it's using too much fuel? :y
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...Even better... Harpers Pit Stop... £5 8)
(note to self, between 1.30 and 3)
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Tailpipe readings of HCs and CO may not be very informative unfortunately, because if your cats are doing their job, both types of pollutant will be largely converted into water and CO2 before they get to your measuring kit.
If you're not already monitoring your consumption by the brim tank and record miles travelled method, start now, then only compare your numbers with those given by others using the same method.
A site like spritmonitor.de is about the best way of finding real-world info about specific cars and variants thereof.
This seems to be the situation for petrol Omegas: http://www.spritmonitor.de/en/overview/35-Opel/331-Omega.html?fueltype=2&powerunit=2
Being a German site, the figures are in litres/100km, but google seems pretty good at converting into our more familiar units, just make sure you get it into UK mpg, not US, as their gallons are smaller! I'm not familiar enough with the spritmonitor site to know if you can change units on there.
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Tailpipe readings of HCs and CO may not be very informative unfortunately, because if your cats are doing their job, both types of pollutant will be largely converted into water and CO2 before they get to your measuring kit.
If you're not already monitoring your consumption by the brim tank and record miles travelled method, start now, then only compare your numbers with those given by others using the same method.
A site like spritmonitor.de is about the best way of finding real-world info about specific cars and variants thereof.
This seems to be the situation for petrol Omegas: http://www.spritmonitor.de/en/overview/35-Opel/331-Omega.html?fueltype=2&powerunit=2
Being a German site, the figures are in litres/100km, but google seems pretty good at converting into our more familiar units, just make sure you get it into UK mpg, not US, as their gallons are smaller! I'm not familiar enough with the spritmonitor site to know if you can change units on there.
Thanks for the info mate. Yep, already checked it using the brim method and it's coming back at 19mpg (ALL town driving).
I'll check that site out though mate, thanks a lot :y
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Probably best to filter out the Omega A results by specifying manufacture date 1995-2003 on the left, and then you can tweak for gearbox type, engine size (if you know your bhp/PS number) to narrow it down further.
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Probably best to filter out the Omega A results by specifying manufacture date 1995-2003 on the left, and then you can tweak for gearbox type, engine size (if you know your bhp/PS number) to narrow it down further.
Cheers mate.
Think I figured out how to use it ;)
First 2.5V6 I came to was doing (after a bit of coversion with litres and kilometres) 29MPG. Very different to mine
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best reported is 31mpg and and worst is 24mpg. but it doesnt say what sort of driving is being done (i.e. town or long runs) so bit difficult to work out whether i'm getting poor results in comparison
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You can dial down to individual cars and what they do w.r.t. town/motorway etc. driving if the individual users have filled in that info. :y
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Parkers says fuel consumption is 25mpg and on the ''LT'' model of my car 24mpg (not sure what LT stands for ???). This is how they work it out though....
Official mpg figures are decided through two different tests. The first is done on a rolling road with a cold engine and is meant to simulate city driving with a number stops at 31mph. The other test is done at 75mph to replicate motorway driving. There are separate figures for each categroy and an average from the two is taken for the combined average.
The problem is these tests are controlled and done in a way of getting the best figures possible from the car.
So. round town I'm now wondering if 19mpg would actually be correct :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
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Yep, big discrepancies between real world and official figures, and getting bigger year on year:
http://www.theicct.org/fuel-consumption-discrepancies
Quick quote for those who don't follow links:
"Based upon analyses of more than 28,000 user entries of the German fuel consumption database spritmonitor.de and more than 1,200 vehicle models tested by Europe’s largest automobile club ADAC, the ICCT found that the gap between type-approval and “real-world” fuel consumption / CO2 values increased from about 8% in 2001 to 21% today, with a particularly strong increase since 2007. Potential reasons for this development include: (i) increasing use of existing tolerances and loopholes in the determination of road load, vehicle weight, laboratory test temperatures, and transmission shifting schedules for type-approval; (ii) inability of the current test cycle, the NEDC, to represent real-world driving conditions; and (iii) increasing market share of vehicles equipped with air conditioning systems."
I don't think many Omega owners will do much better than 19 if they only drive around town like you. Edit: What's your average journey distance?
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Yep, big discrepancies between real world and official figures, and getting bigger year on year:
http://www.theicct.org/fuel-consumption-discrepancies
Quick quote for those who don't follow links:
"Based upon analyses of more than 28,000 user entries of the German fuel consumption database spritmonitor.de and more than 1,200 vehicle models tested by Europe’s largest automobile club ADAC, the ICCT found that the gap between type-approval and “real-world” fuel consumption / CO2 values increased from about 8% in 2001 to 21% today, with a particularly strong increase since 2007. Potential reasons for this development include: (i) increasing use of existing tolerances and loopholes in the determination of road load, vehicle weight, laboratory test temperatures, and transmission shifting schedules for type-approval; (ii) inability of the current test cycle, the NEDC, to represent real-world driving conditions; and (iii) increasing market share of vehicles equipped with air conditioning systems."
I don't think many Omega owners will do much better than 19 if they only drive around town like you. Edit: What's your average journey distance?
So basically mate loopholes in the checking ::), incorrect conditions and not taking in to account the AC will affect it :)
This week is an unusual week as I've used the car t get to school but usually the old girl will do on average four or five trips of 2-5 miles each. Basically she pretty much always arrives at the destination having only just got up to temp ::) and they're town miles so lots of braking too.
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Around town you'll hardly ever get into top gear, plus a 2 ton car takes a lot of stopping and starting, so 19 mpg is quite rasonable IMHO :)
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Yep, big discrepancies between real world and official figures, and getting bigger year on year:
http://www.theicct.org/fuel-consumption-discrepancies (http://www.theicct.org/fuel-consumption-discrepancies)
Quick quote for those who don't follow links:
"Based upon analyses of more than 28,000 user entries of the German fuel consumption database spritmonitor.de and more than 1,200 vehicle models tested by Europe’s largest automobile club ADAC, the ICCT found that the gap between type-approval and “real-world” fuel consumption / CO2 values increased from about 8% in 2001 to 21% today, with a particularly strong increase since 2007. Potential reasons for this development include: (i) increasing use of existing tolerances and loopholes in the determination of road load, vehicle weight, laboratory test temperatures, and transmission shifting schedules for type-approval; (ii) inability of the current test cycle, the NEDC, to represent real-world driving conditions; and (iii) increasing market share of vehicles equipped with air conditioning systems."
I don't think many Omega owners will do much better than 19 if they only drive around town like you. Edit: What's your average journey distance?
So basically mate loopholes in the checking ::) , incorrect conditions and not taking in to account the AC will affect it :)
This week is an unusual week as I've used the car t get to school but usually the old girl will do on average four or five trips of 2-5 miles each. Basically she pretty much always arrives at the destination having only just got up to temp ::) and they're town miles so lots of braking too.
phew.. you will reach the destination with a cold engine.. whatever you do your avgs will be bad.. :-\
when mine was auto on a 11-12 mile journey (and there were few lights that stop me) avg was around 24-25 mpg (thats not a rush hour consumption)
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That's right Cem. Wondering if it's actually normal. ::)
My old man's informed me that we actually have some exhaust emission test results from our last MOT (October) so going to check them too to see if anything's noticeably wrong
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That's right Cem. Wondering if it's actually normal. ::)
My old man's informed me that we actually have some exhaust emission test results from our last MOT (October) so going to check them too to see if anything's noticeably wrong
Webby even if you purchase new thermostat, CTS, lambda sensors and MAF your avg will be better, say %10.. but most of the time you will reach your destination with a cold engine, so not worth it imo.. Unless you make long distances..
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My old 2.5 Elite estate never bettered 27-28 on a run and about 21-23 around the houses,I agree with what Entwood says though,the reading on the gauge is from a different sensor to the one that controls the fueling,get it back on a Tech 2 and see what temp the Ecu is seeing,same goes for inlet air temp sensor as that can affect it too although not as much :y
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I don't think there's any mileage in replacing more parts unless you have proven them to be faulty, nor will exhaust emissions tell you anything as you are looking at the mixture after the cat, so if the engine doesn't burn the fuel the cat will. In addition, it could be running with a normal mixture at idle but be rich or lean on the move, and you can't measure exhaust gas while moving!
I would suggest calculating the actual fuel consumption over a couple of tanks of petrol, by brimming the tank then keeping a record of fuel used against miles travelled. This will eliminate any inaccuracies in the MID fuel consumption figures.
I think you risk throwing a lot of money at a problem that doesn't exist otherwise. A quick look at the live data on a Tech 2 will tell you if all the engine sensors are giving plausible readings and if the operating temperature is reasonable.
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I don't think there's any mileage in replacing more parts unless you have proven them to be faulty, nor will exhaust emissions tell you anything as you are looking at the mixture after the cat, so if the engine doesn't burn the fuel the cat will. In addition, it could be running with a normal mixture at idle but be rich or lean on the move, and you can't measure exhaust gas while moving!
I would suggest calculating the actual fuel consumption over a couple of tanks of petrol, by brimming the tank then keeping a record of fuel used against miles travelled. This will eliminate any inaccuracies in the MID fuel consumption figures.
I think you risk throwing a lot of money at a problem that doesn't exist otherwise. A quick look at the live data on a Tech 2 will tell you if all the engine sensors are giving plausible readings and if the operating temperature is reasonable.
Ok, thanks for that Kev :y :y :y
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Ps, tonight I got home and thought I'd take advantage of the darkness and checked for voltage sparks (arcing) and I chucked on a few revs and found no exhaust smoke in the engine bay.
As that's the case is it worth checking for exhaust leaks between manifold and O2 sensors as I thought I would have seen the smoke rise up through the engine bay?
:)
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Ps, tonight I got home and thought I'd take advantage of the darkness and checked for voltage sparks (arcing) and I chucked on a few revs and found no exhaust smoke in the engine bay.
As that's the case is it worth checking for exhaust leaks between manifold and O2 sensors as I thought I would have seen the smoke rise up through the engine bay?
:)
Your problem with this approach is with the highlighted words. Unless your engine is in really bad shape and burning a lot of oil, or coolant, or very excessive fuelling, there isn't anything to see in exhaust gases, especially up at that end of the system. Only visible portion is condensed water, which only tends to show at the cool end of the system, when the system is cold, and when the air outside is cold.
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Ps, tonight I got home and thought I'd take advantage of the darkness and checked for voltage sparks (arcing) and I chucked on a few revs and found no exhaust smoke in the engine bay.
As that's the case is it worth checking for exhaust leaks between manifold and O2 sensors as I thought I would have seen the smoke rise up through the engine bay?
:)
Your problem with this approach is with the highlighted words. Unless your engine is in really bad shape and burning a lot of oil, or coolant, or very excessive fuelling, there isn't anything to see in exhaust gases, especially up at that end of the system. Only visible portion is condensed water, which only tends to show at the cool end of the system, when the system is cold, and when the air outside is cold.
Thanks mate.
Got a bit of a problem then...if it doesn't show itself how do I check for leaks? :-\ There's no noise coming direct from the manifold area that I can hear (slight ticking from the top end but I'm on that with the Wynns ;D)
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Ps, tonight I got home and thought I'd take advantage of the darkness and checked for voltage sparks (arcing) and I chucked on a few revs and found no exhaust smoke in the engine bay.
As that's the case is it worth checking for exhaust leaks between manifold and O2 sensors as I thought I would have seen the smoke rise up through the engine bay?
:)
Your problem with this approach is with the highlighted words. Unless your engine is in really bad shape and burning a lot of oil, or coolant, or very excessive fuelling, there isn't anything to see in exhaust gases, especially up at that end of the system. Only visible portion is condensed water, which only tends to show at the cool end of the system, when the system is cold, and when the air outside is cold.
partially agreed.. Abiton, when my exhaust system had a small hole , it disturbed the fuel so that avg was 1-1.5 lt/100 km higher and it was no bigger than a pin head.. (and engine was not using oil) and hard to find it..
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I take it your leak was visible, Cem? Or did you locate the leak/hole via other means? :y
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and if we are talking about a 13 year old car its easy to query about the degree of sensors health.. especially lambdas,maf..
they both work on a chemical surface which can degrade..
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I take it your leak was visible, Cem? Or did you locate the leak/hole via other means? :y
by eyes when we rev.. but even the exhaust shop couldnt see it..
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Webby do you have EGR ?
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Webby do you have EGR ?
Yes mate, cleaned out last weekend. Really noticeable difference in acceleration (thanks again to Martin). So I'm going to do what Kev says and do the brim test again before I go any further I think :y
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.....just trying to gain as much knowledge as poss. at this stage :y and thanks for your input... very much appreciated
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Webby do you have EGR ?
Yes mate, cleaned out last weekend. Really noticeable difference in acceleration (thanks again to Martin). So I'm going to do what Kev says and do the brim test again before I go any further I think :y
block it and check the consumption.. :y
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if i block it cem can i put it back if i wish later on?
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if i block it cem can i put it back if i wish later on?
yep.. you will use a metal sheet gasket which will block the exhaust gas passages.. but dont disconnect..
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if i block it cem can i put it back if i wish later on?
yep.. you will use a metal sheet gasket which will block the exhaust gas passages.. but dont disconnect..
thanks cem :y
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if i block it cem can i put it back if i wish later on?
yep.. you will use a metal sheet gasket which will block the exhaust gas passages.. but dont disconnect..
thanks cem :y
and dont over torque I break mine ;D
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if i block it cem can i put it back if i wish later on?
yep.. you will use a metal sheet gasket which will block the exhaust gas passages.. but dont disconnect..
thanks cem :y
and dont over torque I break mine ;D
;D ;D ;D
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il bring over my metal work tools webby when we do the other work and blank it off :y
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Thanks Martin :y spoke to Steve. PM me day/times you're going round his this weekend as I may be able to come up and lend my services :y :y :y
On topic again (sorry guys ::)), it's not guaranteed but I potentially have in't future a fuel rail from a 2.6 V6. Are they exactly the same (including the injectors) as my 2.5 and can they simply be swapped over? :)
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Thanks Martin :y spoke to Steve. PM me day/times you're going round his this weekend as I may be able to come up and lend my services :y :y :y
On topic again (sorry guys ::)), it's not guaranteed but I potentially have in't future a fuel rail from a 2.6 V6. Are they exactly the same (including the injectors) as my 2.5 and can they simply be swapped over? :)
2.6 rail has a different pressure regulator and the injectors are also different.
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Thanks Martin :y spoke to Steve. PM me day/times you're going round his this weekend as I may be able to come up and lend my services :y :y :y
On topic again (sorry guys ::)), it's not guaranteed but I potentially have in't future a fuel rail from a 2.6 V6. Are they exactly the same (including the injectors) as my 2.5 and can they simply be swapped over? :)
2.6 rail has a different pressure regulator and the injectors are also different.
Thanks for confirming mate :y
If I could source one from another 2.5 though would a straight swap (inc. the injectors) be ok? :)
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Thanks Martin :y spoke to Steve. PM me day/times you're going round his this weekend as I may be able to come up and lend my services :y :y :y
On topic again (sorry guys ::)), it's not guaranteed but I potentially have in't future a fuel rail from a 2.6 V6. Are they exactly the same (including the injectors) as my 2.5 and can they simply be swapped over? :)
If you meant mine webby its a 3.0 :-\ :-\
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Thanks Martin :y spoke to Steve. PM me day/times you're going round his this weekend as I may be able to come up and lend my services :y :y :y
On topic again (sorry guys ::)), it's not guaranteed but I potentially have in't future a fuel rail from a 2.6 V6. Are they exactly the same (including the injectors) as my 2.5 and can they simply be swapped over? :)
If you meant mine webby its a 3.0 :-\ :-\
Haha so it is! ::) Well in that case will a 3L fuel rail be ok to swap over ;D ;D ;D
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Thanks Martin :y spoke to Steve. PM me day/times you're going round his this weekend as I may be able to come up and lend my services :y :y :y
On topic again (sorry guys ::) ), it's not guaranteed but I potentially have in't future a fuel rail from a 2.6 V6. Are they exactly the same (including the injectors) as my 2.5 and can they simply be swapped over? :)
If you meant mine webby its a 3.0 :-\ :-\
Haha so it is! ::) Well in that case will a 3L fuel rail be ok to swap over ;D ;D ;D
worth trying imo..
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Thanks Martin :y spoke to Steve. PM me day/times you're going round his this weekend as I may be able to come up and lend my services :y :y :y
On topic again (sorry guys ::) ), it's not guaranteed but I potentially have in't future a fuel rail from a 2.6 V6. Are they exactly the same (including the injectors) as my 2.5 and can they simply be swapped over? :)
If you meant mine webby its a 3.0 :-\ :-\
Haha so it is! ::) Well in that case will a 3L fuel rail be ok to swap over ;D ;D ;D
worth trying imo..
my thoughts exactly cem.
i know the practise shouldn't be to chuck parts at a car. but all these things added up i can get for a total of around £80. as my only interest is my car i consider it spending money on my hobby ;D
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Thanks Martin :y spoke to Steve. PM me day/times you're going round his this weekend as I may be able to come up and lend my services :y :y :y
On topic again (sorry guys ::) ), it's not guaranteed but I potentially have in't future a fuel rail from a 2.6 V6. Are they exactly the same (including the injectors) as my 2.5 and can they simply be swapped over? :)
If you meant mine webby its a 3.0 :-\ :-\
Haha so it is! ::) Well in that case will a 3L fuel rail be ok to swap over ;D ;D ;D
worth trying imo..
my thoughts exactly cem.
i know the practise shouldn't be to chuck parts at a car. but all these things added up i can get for a total of around £80. as my only interest is my car i consider it spending money on my hobby ;D
most car parts are consumables (either short term or long term) except the chasis and special items..
so if you are planning to use the car for a relatively long time there is nothing wrong to purchase new items and also if budget permits.. if today you dont change some parts , next time others pop and the car soon turns into a heap of junk and needs serious money and time to repair.. but UK car owners live in another world where second hand cars are sold for few pennies.. here unless you are in car trade a we expect at least 10+ years from a car when we buy it.. here cars are extremely expensive and we cant change it easily.. :-\
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I agree Cem. I think a lot of peeps over here have the ''scrap it and buy another'' mantality. It's just cos the second hand cars (especially migs) are so cheap.
But luckily cos i can do all the work and get trade prices and do some wheeler-dealing it wont work out too costly..... and it'll be fun to put the new parts in :y
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I agree Cem. I think a lot of peeps over here have the ''scrap it and buy another'' mantality. It's just cos the second hand cars (especially migs) are so cheap.
But luckily cos i can do all the work and get trade prices and do some wheeler-dealing it wont work out too costly..... and it'll be fun to put the new parts in :y
yep.. and one can learn a lot..
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I take the opposite view. Original parts will be the best quality parts your car ever sees, so if they are working, leave them be. All pattern parts and some OEM ones are inferior, and second hand they will have as much wear as your current parts, give or take a little.
If you can prove them to be faulty, then, fair enough, replace them, but I wouldn't go changing things just one the supposition that they might make a difference. At best you'll only waste time and money, worst case you'll end up creating a load of new problems for yourself.
Just MHO. ;)
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I take the opposite view. Original parts will be the best quality parts your car ever sees, so if they are working, leave them be. All pattern parts and some OEM ones are inferior, and second hand they will have as much wear as your current parts, give or take a little.
If you can prove them to be faulty, then, fair enough, replace them, but I wouldn't go changing things just one the supposition that they might make a difference. At best you'll only waste time and money, worst case you'll end up creating a load of new problems for yourself.
Just MHO. ;)
+1 if it aint broke,don't fix it :y
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Thanks for the input guys :y I totally understand what you mean. I had a plan to replace one thing at a time and test consumption under same driving conditions and get the results as to whether that change helped :y
I have found a MAF from Ralf (thought I'd forgot to take it out when I scrapped Ralf) and it's the same oval fitting 8) so I'm going to stick that in as my first port of call to see if that makes any difference. If not I have a spare MAF 8) So that's item one so so far its not cost me owt.
Next thing is (I know you didn't recommend it but...) my mam took the car to a local MOT tester and parted with £5 to get the exhaust emissions results. Whether this makes a difference I don't know but it's something thats crossed off the list as the bloke said the emissions are perfect 8) here's the results.....
Fast Idle Test: RPM-2590 (Test between 2500 and 3000 RPM)
CO - 0.02% Vol (Max - 0.20)
HC - 9PPM (Max - 200ppm)
Lambda - 1.26 (Min - 0.970. Max - 1.030)
Natural Idle Test: RPM - 630 (Test between 450 and 1500 RPM)
CO - 0.01% Vol (Max - 0.30)
OVERALL EXHAUST EMISSIONS - PASS
Engine tested on warm engine.
All things passed. What do we make of those figures. The guy said really good. Not sure what that Lambda test shows - can anyone tell me? :-\
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is the car being used around town on short trips
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is the car being used around town on short trips
yes mate. sadly. on ALL town driving and short trips (lots of 2-5 mile trips) it worked out at 19.5mpg i was getting. wondering if thats actually normal
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Presumably the lambda reading was actually 1.026, not 1.26?
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Presumably the lambda reading was actually 1.026, not 1.26?
my bad, good spot.
yes, 1.026 :y
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Thought it must be that, as 1.26 would be a major fail.
What it tells you is that your oxygen sensors are succeeding in keeping the mixture pretty close to the stoichiometric point (lambda=1).
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Thought it must be that, as 1.26 would be a major fail.
What it tells you is that your oxygen sensors are succeeding in keeping the mixture pretty close to the stoichiometric point (lambda=1).
Excellent!!! Diagnosis vol 1 complete :y
Just out of interest is 0.026 above stoichiometric indicating slightly lean or slightly rich?
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Lean, I think.
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Lean, I think.
Interesting - cheers mate :y
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What state is the exhaust in?
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What state is the exhaust in?
The only input I can give you Mark is that it passed the MOT in October with no exhaust advisories (only advisory was a corroded fuel line)
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When i say corroded i mean slight corrosion noted with no leaks :y
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I am wondering if some of the baffles have collapsed and are restricting the flow a bit. Also what state is the dis pack in?
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I am wondering if some of the baffles have collapsed and are restricting the flow a bit. Also what state is the dis pack in?
Sadly mate I don't know much about exhausts. Where are baffles fitted? The only thing I know from schooling is that baffles are used to ''deflect'' or alter the flow directtion of a substance (e.g. air or fuel)....where would they be fitted. If it helps there's no exhaust rattle or anything like that.
Dispac i havent had out. i can say though that since martin cleaned my EGR there's no lack of power at all.
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I take the opposite view. .1.Original parts will be the best quality parts your car ever sees, so if they are working, leave them be. 2.All pattern parts and some OEM ones are inferior, and second hand they will have as much wear as your current parts, give or take a little.
If you can prove them to be faulty, then, fair enough, replace them, but I wouldn't go changing things just one the supposition that they might make a difference. At best you'll only waste time and money, worst case you'll end up creating a load of new problems for yourself.
Just MHO. ;)
1.yep.. agreed
2.if you purchase original GM or Opel/VX parts there wont be any problem as they are under warranty..
and if we are talking about a 13+ year old car, I am afraid I disagree..
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I take the opposite view. .1.Original parts will be the best quality parts your car ever sees, so if they are working, leave them be. 2.All pattern parts and some OEM ones are inferior, and second hand they will have as much wear as your current parts, give or take a little.
If you can prove them to be faulty, then, fair enough, replace them, but I wouldn't go changing things just one the supposition that they might make a difference. At best you'll only waste time and money, worst case you'll end up creating a load of new problems for yourself.
Just MHO. ;)
1.yep.. agreed
2.if you purchase original GM or Opel/VX parts there wont be any problem as they are under warranty..
and if we are talking about a 13+ year old car, I am afraid I disagree..
I think if you can test the part and it's second hand and it's good I dont see a problen but I see where youre both coming from.
as an example though i got a quote (before i found ralfs maf) for a maf fromvauxhall..... £196 :o theres whole omegas going for less! lol
used and tested is the way forward i reckon
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...even its just for testing purposes i should have added :y
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Me again guys, sorry not bumping... I just keep coming up with queries. but your help is much appreciated :)
When you remove injectors (say for superboom testing or whatever its called lol) do you have to replace what appear to be two 'o' rings at the nozzle and middle?
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I say DIS pack as I have seen some where the voltage was lower but the car worked ok, the result was correct operation but reduced fuel economy.
Do you still have the one I sent you in case you find its past its best?
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I say DIS pack as I have seen some where the voltage was lower but the car worked ok, the result was correct operation but reduced fuel economy.
Do you still have the one I sent you in case you find its past its best?
That's very interesting, Mark. I'll see if I have time to get it out at the weekend. I certainly do mate (thanks very much for that).
When I asked my teacher about what other checks I could do.... he said it's just the resistance test. I take it (from what I remember you saying on my school blog) you think different?
Thanks so much for your help :y
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I know different (and so do you :y).....as mentioned in the 'how a coil really works' spiel in your school topic, the magnetic material is very important and rust and damage to this part will have no impact on a resistance test but will reduce (and it can be quite significantly) the spark energy
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I know different (and so do you :y).....as mentioned in the 'how a coil really works' spiel in your school topic, the magnetic material is very important
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thanks mate ill swap that out before i do anything and spend loads of dough :y :y
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Just looking at it is a good idea, try taking a pic of the underside of it with your mobile.
On the magnetic material thing, lets put it in laymans terms.
The iron core is a like a bucket in which energy is stored, the more iron, the bigger the bucket, the greater the stored energy.
If we now consider that the iron core is corroded then its the same as decreasing the size of the bucket, less energy can be stored.
Less energy equals a lower power spark.....which can in turn result in poorer combustion.
Its another possible which needs to be considered.
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[That's a perfect explanation to me. And I can see how obviously partial combustion will affect economy.
It's interesting also that in the mornings when its particularly cold (3o and below) it seemed for the first couple of minutes that it was a bit low on power but i dismissed it as it went away very quickly.
it would also back up TBs suggestion that it seemed low on power when i first went for a techII ;)
So thanks for that. ill check it this weekend :y
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Ps, if anyone is interested or this info could help anyone else out......
I called Northampton Motorsport (N'pton 766624) and they charge £5 per injector to test and clean.
Turn up with fuel rail/inlets in hand and they'll pop the injectors out and put them back for a little bit extra (assuming it doesn't take too long).
If it comes to it and we get further down the diagnostic road if all else fails I will get this done. The chap was real helpful on the phone.
But I'll of course do all I can to stem the flow of cash being spent on the old girl starting with Mark's advice :y :y
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Anyone any idea what a dry compression test should reveal (per cylinder)???
I'm thinking 14.7 X 10.8(+1) = 173
Also, how would you go about disconnecting the fuel system on the Omega to do it? I assume you would also disconnect the disspac to stop spark?
Cheers guys.
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fuel pump fuse/socket off..
for compression test check this page
http://www.jspecauto.com/files/jspecautotechcenter9a.htm (http://www.jspecauto.com/files/jspecautotechcenter9a.htm)
and this one
http://www.gregsengine.com/cylinder-compression-testing.html (http://www.gregsengine.com/cylinder-compression-testing.html)
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I'd pull the two purple relays at the back of the engine bay relay box. Fuel pump and ECU disabled.
If you just disable the fuel pump, the ignition will still be active, and may cause a shock, or kill the coil pack.
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I'd pull the two purple relays at the back of the engine bay relay box. Fuel pump and ECU disabled.
If you just disable the fuel pump, the ignition will still be active, and may cause a shock, or kill the coil pack.
Thanks guys :y
Any chance of a photo of the two relays I need to pull just so i dont balls it up ::)
So...
remove these two relays. then do i still need to disconnect the disspac or is there a relay or fuse i can pull for this? would make it that bit easier as the connector to the dispac is quite hard to get to ::)
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I'd pull the two purple relays at the back of the engine bay relay box. Fuel pump and ECU disabled.
If you just disable the fuel pump, the ignition will still be active, and may cause a shock, or kill the coil pack.
Thanks guys :y
Any chance of a photo of the two relays I need to pull just so i dont balls it up ::)
So...
remove these two relays. then do i still need to disconnect the disspac or is there a relay or fuse i can pull for this? would make it that bit easier as the connector to the dispac is quite hard to get to ::)
You can't go wrong Webby... Engine bay relay box, 2 Purple Relays :y :y They stop Pump and ECU so the dis pack won't fire ;)
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I'd pull the two purple relays at the back of the engine bay relay box. Fuel pump and ECU disabled.
If you just disable the fuel pump, the ignition will still be active, and may cause a shock, or kill the coil pack.
Thanks guys :y
Any chance of a photo of the two relays I need to pull just so i dont balls it up ::)
So...
remove these two relays. then do i still need to disconnect the disspac or is there a relay or fuse i can pull for this? would make it that bit easier as the connector to the dispac is quite hard to get to ::)
You can't go wrong Webby... Engine bay relay box, 2 Purple Relays :y :y They stop Pump and ECU so the dis pack won't fire ;)
ok lazy thanks.... should i then run car until it cuts out to guarantee no petrol injected? :)
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I'd pull the two purple relays at the back of the engine bay relay box. Fuel pump and ECU disabled.
If you just disable the fuel pump, the ignition will still be active, and may cause a shock, or kill the coil pack.
Thanks guys :y
Any chance of a photo of the two relays I need to pull just so i dont balls it up ::)
So...
remove these two relays. then do i still need to disconnect the disspac or is there a relay or fuse i can pull for this? would make it that bit easier as the connector to the dispac is quite hard to get to ::)
You can't go wrong Webby... Engine bay relay box, 2 Purple Relays :y :y They stop Pump and ECU so the dis pack won't fire ;)
ok lazy thanks.... should i then run car until it cuts out to guarantee no petrol injected? :)
You will struggle with those two relays out ???
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I'd pull the two purple relays at the back of the engine bay relay box. Fuel pump and ECU disabled.
If you just disable the fuel pump, the ignition will still be active, and may cause a shock, or kill the coil pack.
Thanks guys :y
Any chance of a photo of the two relays I need to pull just so i dont balls it up ::)
So...
remove these two relays. then do i still need to disconnect the disspac or is there a relay or fuse i can pull for this? would make it that bit easier as the connector to the dispac is quite hard to get to ::)
You can't go wrong Webby... Engine bay relay box, 2 Purple Relays :y :y They stop Pump and ECU so the dis pack won't fire ;)
ok lazy thanks.... should i then run car until it cuts out to guarantee no petrol injected? :)
You will struggle with those two relays out ???
Well the idea being to rid the fuel between fuel pump and engine, then once it dies you know its out of fuel. then simply prime the fuel pump before starting when its all back together :)
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...or are we saying that this relay will actually STOP the injectors? sorry if ive got confused ::) :y
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...or are we saying that this relay will actually STOP the injectors? sorry if ive got confused ::) :y
Injectors are controlled by ECU, so disable ECU, no injection.
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...or are we saying that this relay will actually STOP the injectors? sorry if ive got confused ::) :y
Injectors are controlled by ECU, so disable ECU, no injection.
Ok, now I got it, sorry for confusion.
Is there also a better way of stopping the spark instead of disconnecting the disspac? :)
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If you just pull the two relays Kevin suggests, you don't need to do anything more. Read his post again.
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nice one thanks for that and everyones help :) :) :) :)
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Evening guys, hope you're all well.
Firstly as said before I'm not bumping this thread...just thought I'd update with stuff that I do as I do it :)
Well firstly I'll be ordering the compression test kit as soon as I'm paid and although I don't anticipate (hopefully) a compression issue it's something I want to do to check the health of the old girl :y
ANYHOW.... Whipped out the disspac today in my free period. I was stupid really cos if I didnt do it in time I'd have been there still now ;D but luckily it was a lot easier than it was the first time I did it. Anyway he disspac looked ok. It had no corrosion on it and I had a multimeter on it. Firstly looked up the correct resistance tests in the ignition bible we have......
(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee402/webbybear1/coilpack1_zpsf3a6a50f.jpg)
(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee402/webbybear1/coilpack2_zpsaa5960d7.jpg)
So it tested as follows:
Secondary: (ON THEOHMS 20K SCALE)
2&5 - 11530........... GOOD
3&6 - 11590........... GOOD
1&4 - 11550........... GOOD
Primary: (ON THE OHMS 200 SCALE)
Pin 1&4 - 0.60........... GOOD
Pin 2&4 - 1.1............. BAD
Pin 3&4 - 1.1............. BAD
So......
Do we reckon the primary resistance is really bad or in the real world should it still function and be ok? And this is what is potentially causing the issue.
Another stupid thing I did was not bring my spare with me and stick that in ::) i can be so dumb at times.
On the next issue about exhaust leaks (if it's not the disspac) I'm obviously checking first everything thats free to check (without replcing any parts).
I found this Ehow site....
http://www.ehow.com/how_2192129_test-car-exhaust-manifold-leaks.html
would this be the way to go tocheck for exhaust leaks? the reason I ask about exhaust leaks this early is because i started the car up this morning (-0.5oC) and while i went round the car to scrape the snow off there was a noticeable ticking from underneath just behind the front road wheels and inwards... it was the same the other side too ??? as soon as it was warm (i checked it when i arrived at school) and it had gone away. Any ideas? :)
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Hi guys,
Had an inteesting conversation with my tutor following us coincidentally starting air intake and exhaust systems this week (will update blog tonight :))
Anyway, I mentioned my fuel consumption issue and I asked how they test for exhaust leaks in the trade. He looked at me as if I was perhaps a mad man :D and said ''you should know, you've just used the gas analyser''.
So getting in to it further he said that if you had any kind of exhaust leak however small (and I double checked that included manifold to CAT) this would affec the emissions test and after explaining I've just had one done and the bloke doing it said they were ''perfect'' he said you definitely don't have an exhaust leak :)
Now i cant remember where i saw it but i mentioned that someone had told me that the cat would sort out all the emissions 'discrepencies' via the CAT and that it isnt a true reading but he said that was wrong and he maintained that if you had any kind of leak your emissions would be affected.
SO. as i have perfect emissions 8) i'm thinking it would be wise to put the exhaust leak investigation on to the back burner (no pun).
i also mentioned this rattling that seemed to be coming from underneath.... well i started her up this morning (-1.5oC) and i traced that 'tick tick tick' and that was actally coming from the drivers side cam cover. all quiet on the passenger side. noise went within 2 mins so i'm thinking that this was just a stuck lifter (that i'm aware of and trying to sort out as a seperate issue).
ps, anyone have any thoughts on the last post re the disspac?
as said before i'm not bumping. i genuinely think this could help others (and i think theres a few of us ;D) that have got or will get the same roblem :y
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Just had the car come out of F1 Autocentre.
No leaks between cat and manifold at all. A very small leak near the backbox but they've filled that. All for free!
So I can tick this off the list in my diagnosis.
More to come this weekend I think 8)
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Your tutor is wrong by the way, I feel hes struggling to fully understand how the mixture control works.
IF there is a leak pre O2 sensor then oxygen will be detected and more fuel added, the oxygen from this leak will ignite in the cat/front pipe and the emmission reading will not be affected....consumption would increase and block learn values would drift off. This is actualy how the air injection works as the unburnt fuel burns in the down pipes when the air is injected and hence heat the cats quicker (e.g. working proof of the principle)
As for the coil pack, did you see any signs of corrosion on the iron core?
The resistance measurement differences you see are probably outside the accuracy of the meter being used. :y
And as I have said before, dont just consider the engine, consumption can increase due to other factors including things potentialy 'wasting energy; such as blocked exhaust etc
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Your tutor is wrong by the way, I feel hes struggling to fully understand how the mixture control works.
I think that's uncharacteristically generous, there, Mark.. ;D
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Your tutor is wrong by the way, I feel hes struggling to fully understand how the mixture control works.
I think that's uncharacteristically generous, there, Mark.. ;D
I still have some Christmas cheer left
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Thanks again Mark :y
That explanation of emissions/exhaust leaks makes sense.... basically any leak can affect economy without having an affect on emissions. I suppose this is why I question so much in search of the right answer lol but cheers for clearing that up.
I'm glad that the autocentre found only one small leak near the backbox (which they filled). I can at least now cross exhaust leaks off the list.... so as it's not a leak am I to do the marigold test again? faierly certain it has good pressure. will this prove if there's a blockage or not or will i need to go deeper?
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oh and disspac looked fine. there didnt appear to be any cracking anywhere with any rust parts showing.
i think for purposes of completeness i'm going to swap it out anyway. it's there sitting in my garage... may as well cross that off the list :y
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There can be rust and no cracking :y
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There can be rust and no cracking :y
Thanks again.
Will replace disspac and check for blockages :y
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Webby,presuming you have checked other obvious causes of high fuel consumption,low tyre pressures or a slightly sticking brake caliper/handbrake binding would all cause more fuel to be used :y
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Webby,presuming you have checked other obvious causes of high fuel consumption,low tyre pressures or a slightly sticking brake caliper/handbrake binding would all cause more fuel to be used :y
Hi ya mate,
Certainly have ;) stuck her in neutral and she easily rolls and i keep the pressures at 30 on each :)
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webby,what is the mpg you getting from miggy??
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webby,what is the mpg you getting from miggy??
last checked in autumn time (so not cold) and it was 19mpg :'(
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for around town thats ok,if its a long run then constant motorway then no its piss poor,buy a ford escort cabby,45mpg ;D ;D ;D
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for around town thats ok,if its a long run then constant motorway then no its piss poor,buy a ford escort cabby,45mpg ;D ;D ;D
seriously considering it mate ;D ;D ;D ;D
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so answer to the question,is that town or long journey??
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so answer to the question,is that town or long journey??
ph yeah sorry lol all town
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nothing wrong then mate,you wont get any better than that,its the joys of omega ownership :y :y
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nothing wrong then mate,you wont get any better than that,its the joys of omega ownership :y :y
thanks mate. wonder why/hpw peeps are getting higher then?
oh, well ill still do the testing stuff i was going to as i want to see if shes in good health anyway :y
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higher will be on a long run mate,i.e motorway run etc
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your need 1 off these for better fuel economy around town ;D ;D
(http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/martinthrapston/IMAG0141.jpg)
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nope. what i really want is a messerschmitt
(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee402/webbybear1/messerschmitt-kr200-01_zpse17ec4ea.jpg)
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I wouldn't consider down grading to an Escort, if changing then go for something economical (as you would only see 45mpg on a run and not around town which has to be comapred with 30-35mpg for what you have)
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I would be lucky to get 8-12 mpg out of my old 3.0 elite around town .
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Webby's consumption did seem low, looking at the MID's instantaneous readings at a constant 60mph on flat road - mid/high 20s.
Webby does drive like tunnie as well.
I would expect, at 60mph (ie, well above 4th gear lockup) to see high 30s with ease from a 2.5 auto. OK, its going to be poor around town, granted.
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I would be lucky to get 8-12 mpg out of my old 3.0 elite around town .
Hmmm, I've managed that on a run ::)
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Webby's consumption did seem low, looking at the MID's instantaneous readings at a constant 60mph on flat road - mid/high 20s.
Webby does drive like tunnie as well.
I would expect, at 60mph (ie, well above 4th gear lockup) to see high 30s with ease from a 2.5 auto. OK, its going to be poor around town, granted.
That is true.. i like to take my time ;D
cant remember if we checked coolant temp TB? obviously it was a while ago but i dont remember us discussing it. should this be something to check also via the TechII?
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I would be lucky to get 8-12 mpg out of my old 3.0 elite around town .
Hmmm, I've managed that on a run ::)
::)
;D me too