Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: STEMO on 20 February 2016, 22:57:35
-
No speeches, no trying to influence others, no comments at all would be even better.
Just 'Stay' or 'Leave'.
-
Add the poll then ::)
-
Add the poll then ::)
It's late ;D
-
Add the poll then ::)
It's late ;D
Especially for an old fart like you ;D
-
I've set it so you can change your mind if you want to. A lot of people will, I guess.
-
Not looking good ;D
-
It's a subject I've done a lot of research into. I won't be sharing my opinion or the research here but let's just say that the result of the upcoming referendum could well finalise our decision as to whether we try to emigrate!
-
Voted- nuf said :)
-
That's my vote cast.
-
It's a subject I've done a lot of research into. I won't be sharing my opinion or the research here but let's just say that the result of the upcoming referendum could well finalise our decision as to whether we try to emigrate!
Why not ? A bit of healthy discussion could result, and that's not a bad thing. ???
-
It's a subject I've done a lot of research into. I won't be sharing my opinion or the research here but let's just say that the result of the upcoming referendum could well finalise our decision as to whether we try to emigrate!
Why not ? A bit of healthy discussion could result, and that's not a bad thing. ???
People can do their own research. I don't like discussing politics or religion because it can cause issues ::)
-
Whats the harm in this,,,should be interesting.. ;D ;D
-
There is so very much wrong with Europe .....but. :)
-
There is so very much wrong with Europe .....but. :)
Fear of the Unknown? Have voted :y
-
There is so very much wrong with Europe .....but. :)
Theres nothing wrong with Europe, but the EU................. :)
Come on, lets have a discussion. We are all grown ups - allegedly. ;D
-
The issue as I see it is that a vast number of voters will be deciding on which way to vote by what is relevant to their needs/views etc and not what is best for Britian. My mate told me last night that he is voting "out" just to get rid of Scotland. That's a pretty narrow reason but others with other singular motives will do the same. Also how many will really bother to research the pros and cons before voting? Will it then be as it was in the Irish Republic with their referendum that they had to keep voting until they came up with the "right" decision? Food for thought. :-\
-
I spoke to someone who said they will vote to remain because they don't trust the current govt. on the NHS/ pensions/ H&S law etc. :o
The current Govt can be kicked out by us in 4 years time, and it always has, always will swing back and forth between Tory / Labour.
This vote is about the future of the UK for evermore. ::)
-
I spoke to someone who said they will vote to remain because they don't trust the current govt. on the NHS/ pensions/ H&S law etc. :o
The current Govt can be kicked out by us in 4 years time, and it always has, always will swing back and forth between Tory / Labour.
This vote is about the future of the UK for evermore. ::)
It won't swing while Corbyn is in charge.
-
Probably not, but its still short term being compared to forever. ;)
-
where's the maybe button?
- I work for a French-based small company and I have no idea how an out vote will affect us both jurisdictionally and cost-wise.
- Could put my job and future at risk (although it could force the creation of an entirely different UK entity of which I would be in sole charge, which would be to my advantage)
- Economically it would mean a period of adjustment and pain but in the long run we would be just as well off as if we had left.
- In order to export to the EU we would more than likely have to comply with their rules and still pay for the privilege. I doubt for a second that they will give us the same arrangements that China has. We are just not big enough.
- Dont like the current process for passing legislation (no real vote or voice in the European parliament where there is a lot of collusion to get things done in the face of protest from smaller bodies)
- (my feeling) No real way of holding MEPs to account and very little transparency in their decision (all while appearing to be thoroughly transparent)
- If we stayed in then we would have more say than as an outsider
- More difficult to share military infrastructure, which is an issue until our aircraft carriers are built.
- No confidence that concessions given will not be slowly eroded as per the deal made int he 70's when we voted for the EEC.
I am still not decided. While Cameron has done well to get what he has from the EU, I am not 100% sure that is enough to sway me.
Still sat on the fence but I am very glad that we are getting a say rather than our elected representatives making a mockery of our wishes and just rolling over for Brussels.
-
The Scots would be forced to stay in as the oil would leave, along with the islands that supply it... ok, to say that the islands would leave is misleading, where we go, they will most likely follow.
Re military provision, presumably we will remain in Nato :-\
I suspect migration will be the deciding factor, as the whole of mainland Europe, from Turkey to France is geared up to getting people from the eastern Med to the channel as efficiently as possible.
It will be close, but I suspect we will leave. Worst case, it all goes horribly wrong and we end up a US satellite... but I think in fact we will do ok, afterall our economy has recovered better than others and the Commonwealth has alot to offer as well.
All we need now is a four month media blackout :y
-
where's the maybe button?
There's no maybe button cause there won't be on the ballot paper. Neither will there be any space to write a short novel, that's why I asked for just a vote. Personal reasons for staying/leaving are all very interesting but not really pertinent. I will vote leave even if every other person in the country votes to stay.
-
I am undecided, and want to hear all the arguments before committing.:-\
-
To my simple brain the most interesting aspect of all the media who-ha in the uk, all of whom are saying that Cameron failed to get anything substantive (likely they are trying to influence the decision to a "leave" one when they should be neutral - note how much airtime Farage is getting), is the actual reaction from the press in other countries
http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/the-brits-have-freed-the-eu-from-the-yoke-of-political-union-foreign-press-reactions-to-uk-eu-deal/
I wonder why the BBC/ITV/etc etc are not reporting this viewpoint ??? but then ... they have their own agenda and now "make" the news instead of reporting it, and anything they can do that is "anti-Cameron" appears to be acceptable
-
I've voted to leave. And will do in the referendum.
My opinion is that if you have twenty summat countries all with individual interests, how can you possibly have harmony.
Whilst I voted for Mr Cameron and I stand by that vote as I believe overall he's done a good job, I genuinely can't see where he's going with this. I've heard zero 'we need to stay in for reaso x, y and z'. So unless I hear something to that affect that I agree with ill be voting out.
Why can't we be on our own as we have been for centuries prior to 1970?
Just my opinion. I'm sure others have theirs 😀
-
The Scots would be forced to stay in as the oil would leave, along with the islands that supply it... ok, to say that the islands would leave is misleading, where we go, they will most likely follow.
Re military provision, presumably we will remain in Nato :-\
I suspect migration will be the deciding factor, as the whole of mainland Europe, from Turkey to France is geared up to getting people from the eastern Med to the channel as efficiently as possible.
It will be close, but I suspect we will leave. Worst case, it all goes horribly wrong and we end up a US satellite... but I think in fact we will do ok, afterall our economy has recovered better than others and the Commonwealth has alot to offer as well.
All we need now is a four month media blackout :y
That is patently untrue if by channel you mean the English Channel. It is true that the EU borders are totally porous but Britain hasn't received 100,000' of the mostly Syrian migrants? There aren't 100,000's waiting at Calais. Many EU countries have taken huge numbers of migrants unlike Britain (and Spain). Some countries have closed their borders or built fences. Don't get me wrong, I think the EU has failed awfully to control the situation. That in itself is a reflection of how well Brussells works. About as well as a person would tied to a dead donkey and certainly as fast. I find our approach to migration hypocritical. Britain is quite happy to fill vast numbers of jobs that are generally low paid(care, NHS, burger flippers etc) with economic migrants but then cry there are too many. Maybe there are too many of the wrong type?
Interesting link Entwood to how others in Europe feel. I ask the man in the street here and they are clueless to the issues. They are more interested in the fact that there is a stalemate in forming a new Spanish government.
If the outcome for the EU is a two tier affair with a nucleus going for ever closer union then so be it. I personally think that is so wrong on so many levels. Lets trade and be European but control our own affairs.
Incidentally expat forums are full of threads hundreds of pages long with speculation that an out vote would be bad for the expat. e.g pensions could be frozen as they are for people who went to live in a Commonwealth country. I shall be voting for future generations and not for my own well being.
-
Ex pats are foreigners, just not ones that live here. If I were Spanish or French, I would be glad to see the back of them.
-
Boris has now joined the leave campaign. Cameron will be sh1tting bricks.
-
;D ;D ;D Yes they ravish our women and drink all our beer. 8)
But what of Boris;s future in the event of a No vote? Cameron doesn't care either way as he wisely already said he isn't standing again.
-
£55 million squid a day ....just to be in the club,think we need a check up from the neck up....got to be a big NO! from me :y
-
I suspect migration will be the deciding factor, as the whole of mainland Europe, from Turkey to France is geared up to getting people from the eastern Med to the channel as efficiently as possible.
France and Germany(the only other two EU countries where people want to end up) have massive immigration problems of their own. Of course they are going to do that. The only reason we don't indulge in that level of SEP* is that as an island we actually have physical border security.
*Somebody Else's Problem
-
Think for me,if everyone want's to come and live here....then it's not up to me to deal with the problems that it may cause,it's in the hands of the decision makers,so what I think is of no concern to them. ::)
-
£55 million squid a day ....just to be in the club,think we need a check up from the neck up....got to be a big NO! from me :y
Do a bit of research into what we get back ;)
My only real comment on this, coming from a region that grows a lot of vegetables, is just remember that most Brits think they're above grafting a field all day for minimum wage :-X
-
£55 million squid a day ....just to be in the club,think we need a check up from the neck up....got to be a big NO! from me :y
Do a bit of research into what we get back ;)
My only real comment on this, coming from a region that grows a lot of vegetables, is just remember that most Brits think they're above grafting a field all day for minimum wage :-X
This works...
http://www.esdc.gc.ca/en/foreign_workers/hire/agricultural/index.page ;)
-
Is there provision to add Boris's vote ::) ::) ;D
-
£55 million squid a day ....just to be in the club,think we need a check up from the neck up....got to be a big NO! from me :y
Do a bit of research into what we get back ;)
My only real comment on this, coming from a region that grows a lot of vegetables, is just remember that most Brits think they're above grafting a field all day for minimum wage :-X
This works...
http://www.esdc.gc.ca/en/foreign_workers/hire/agricultural/index.page ;)
You think that works when harvest date is very flexible, dependent on weather and forecasts :-\ ???
-
Bet Boris will be on the dole by monday for that move ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
Minimum wage = benefits top up,goverment cost not employer!! think about that also :-\
-
n total since 1979, Britain has paid in about €260 billion (£228 billion). It has received back in benefits just €163 billion (£143 billion). The difference of €97 billion (£85 billion at today’s exchange rate) has been Britain’s subsidy to the European project
-
n total since 1979, Britain has paid in about €260 billion (£228 billion). It has received back in benefits just €163 billion (£143 billion). The difference of €97 billion (£85 billion at today’s exchange rate) has been Britain’s subsidy to the European project
£85 billion? In over 36 years? If that's all, I might reconsider my position on the matter.
I'm quite sure it is far more than that! ???
-
To me it is very simple I want to be able to directly vote for those who make our laws and set our taxes. It is only by leaving that we will become a democracy again and can do that. Ministers and MPs complain all the time that they can't do what they would like to do and what is best for the UK as it is not compatible with EU law which overrides UK law. We are effectively controlled by an army of occupation, which is based in Brussels.
When it was the EEC it was mainly a trading club, since the French Mitterrand / Delors power grab and the formation of the EU it has been a disaster for the citizens of Europe. A very telling statistic is that for advanced countries our percentage of global trade has dropped between 2000-2014 as other countries especially the BRICS have grown. US has dropped by 9%, but the EU countries have over 18%. The EU nano-management of countries is killing enterprise, which hits all of our pockets.
In 1931 we got out early from the Gold Standard, the pound dropped against other currencies but our economy recovered very quickly, unlike the US and mainland Europe which hung on much longer. The EU with their overregulation is having a similar effect on Europe with virtually no economic growth, even Germany is struggling, time for us to leave again early and all of us to get richer as a result. At some point the EU in its present form will collapse like other previous grandiose French schemes for becoming the leading power and hegemony in Europe. Their predecessor to the Euro, the Latin Monetary Unit (LMU) which collapsed in 1923 shows that the French learn't nothing from this as they both have the same flaws. A good comparison on EU economic competence is to compare two countries that were bankrupt in 2008, Iceland who sorted themselves out and Greece where the EU got involved. Iceland is thriving, Greece has 24% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment.
Personally, I know when we have been sold a lemon. It's time to reclaim our democracy, it's time to be kind to our pockets, it's time to leave.
-
Rods...
MP's complain because they are passing the buck. This is not 100% of the time, but a vast majority.
Greece shouldn't be included in your argument on the merit they couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery. Iceland.... meh, they have nothing to trade.
-
n total since 1979, Britain has paid in about €260 billion (£228 billion). It has received back in benefits just €163 billion (£143 billion). The difference of €97 billion (£85 billion at today’s exchange rate) has been Britain’s subsidy to the European project
Which fails to account for free trade in both directions, amongst other benefits ;)
Anybody who thinks an in/out decision should be made purely on the finances needs to research some more ;)
Plus, of course, there is the considerable increase in costs for anything we buy in the shops of EU origin - Check your next basket of groceries for a start! Plus the majority of car parts you buy as a second ::)
-
Plus, of course, there is the considerable increase in costs for anything we buy in the shops of EU origin - Check your next basket of groceries for a start! Plus the majority of car parts you buy as a second ::)
That's a massive assumption, as we don't know what kind of UK\EU trade deal will be put in place in the event of Brexit. ::)
Given that we have a trade deficit with the EU, they would be plan daft to implement tariffs and duties on trade with the UK. If they did, it would be out of spite and would prove what a shower of shits they are, and that we had made the right decision! ;)
Of course we will be bombarded with scaremongering propaganda, that everyone will lose their jobs and we're all off to hell in a handcart if we leave the EU. :P ;D
-
There's a lot of foreign companies already here and milking us with higher prices i.e rail/energy etc which the people in France and Germany are not dumb enough to put up with.
-
Plus, of course, there is the considerable increase in costs for anything we buy in the shops of EU origin - Check your next basket of groceries for a start! Plus the majority of car parts you buy as a second ::)
That's a massive assumption, as we don't know what kind of UK\EU trade deal will be put in place in the event of Brexit. ::)
Given that we have a trade deficit with the EU, they would be plan daft to implement tariffs and duties on trade with the UK. If they did, it would be out of spite and would prove what a shower of shits they are, and that we had made the right decision! ;)
Of course we will be bombarded with scaremongering propaganda, that everyone will lose their jobs and we're all off to hell in a handcart if we leave the EU. :P ;D
Not at all... If we leave then there will be duties and taxes. No if or but. But, as you rightly say, it could be favourable. I doubt it though... The new, independent UK Government will need to raise the lost income somehow :-X ::)
-
Plus, of course, there is the considerable increase in costs for anything we buy in the shops of EU origin - Check your next basket of groceries for a start! Plus the majority of car parts you buy as a second ::)
That's a massive assumption, as we don't know what kind of UK\EU trade deal will be put in place in the event of Brexit. ::)
Given that we have a trade deficit with the EU, they would be plan daft to implement tariffs and duties on trade with the UK. If they did, it would be out of spite and would prove what a shower of shits they are, and that we had made the right decision! ;)
Of course we will be bombarded with scaremongering propaganda, that everyone will lose their jobs and we're all off to hell in a handcart if we leave the EU. :P ;D
Not at all... If we leave then there will be duties and taxes. No if or but. But, as you rightly say, it could be favourable. I doubt it though... The new, independent UK Government will need to raise the lost income somehow :-X ::)
It's an assumption because we don't know for sure what might happen in the event of Britain leaving the EU. ::) We can all have our opinions, but until we know the facts that's all they are. :y
An immediate saving of course will be the approx £10 billion Britain contributes to the EU budget, but as we're all off to hell in a hand cart that will be a drop in the ocean! :-X ;D
-
I had a quick look on Britain's contribution to the EU and in 2013 we handed over €10.8 billion net. So less than I stated above. Our gross contribution in 2013 was €17 billion, and just for comparison purposes Poland received €16.8 billion from the EU in the same year. :)
I expect later figures are available but as said it was a quick look.! ;)
-
All those who insist they "know" EXACTLY the result of a vote to leave would be advised to read, study, and UNDERSTAND this article ...
https://constitution-unit.com/2016/01/19/what-happens-if-we-vote-for-brexit/
-
Despite all the hype, I don't think there's a cat in hells chance of us actually voting to leave.
-
All those who insist they "know" EXACTLY the result of a vote to leave would be advised to read, study, and UNDERSTAND this article ...
https://constitution-unit.com/2016/01/19/what-happens-if-we-vote-for-brexit/
This implies that any decision will be made, or at least influenced by, the opinion of columnists and bloggers... which worries me :-\
That said, the leaving process is clearly defined, and if that choice is made, then we would most likely be out of the EU by autumn 2018. Article 50 makes no mention of the possibility of individual agreements between the various EU States and the UK, which as a long term approach might well be a realistic option when it comes to trade, rather than trying to get 72% acceptance from the ballsy side of a 27:1 negotiation.
Remember also, that unencumbered by EU laws and regulation, business will become cheaper and easier... no WTD for example.
-
Thanks to the BBC, all we are seeing is the in-fighting in the Conservative party, not the actual views(ill-informed or otherwise) of the general public.
I sincerely believe that all of this is about immigration. There are not that many ordinary folk who know, or even care, about the economic implications. The sad thing is, even with Brexit, I can't see how anything, regarding immigration, would change.
We are f***ed.
-
Should be a media blackout regarding the referendum, same with the Scottish one... all the mudslinging and smoke and mirror bullshit achieves nothing but confusion, which makes a mockery of the referendum causing voter apathy and produces a misrepresentation of opinion... the polar opposite of what it's supposed to do.
Instead, people will simply vote against the last person than riled them, regardless of the actual opinion of either party (both the voter and the lobbyist).
-
Article 50 makes no mention of the possibility of individual agreements between the various EU States and the UK, which as a long term approach might well be a realistic option when it comes to trade, rather than trying to get 72% acceptance from the ballsy side of a 27:1 negotiation.
Article 50 doesn't but lots of other EU treaties do. One of the reasons people give for wanting BREXIT is that the UK could then enter into unilateral trade deals with other countries - like China, India and the Commonwealth which we can't do at the moment because we're in the EU. So if/once we exit the EU, presumably the same rules would prevent the remaining 27 EU countries coming to unilateral agreements with the UK. So we either agree something within the 2 years of an Article 50 exit, or tarrifs/duties get imposed on UK exports to the EU in accordance with WTO rules.
Remember also, that unencumbered by EU laws and regulation, business will become cheaper and easier... no WTD for example.
I highly doubt anything will get cheaper. If GDP drops then taxation will have to increase to maintain current govt spending levels. Saving £10Bn on EU funding is peanuts compared to the £760Bn that the govt spend every year.
Oh - and by the way - could you pull your finger out and make sure that EZY5475 gets away on time tomorrow with a full compliment of Bacon butties. Ta.
-
It's on time at.the moment, but no promises where bacon butties are concerned ;D
-
A small straw pole was taken in Poole . 50/50, One woman of a certain age summed it up .When asked which way she would vote she replied. 'Well I'm undecided as I don't know anything about it, but I will definitely be voting Out?
Don't you love democracy!
-
This implies that any decision will be made, or at least influenced by, the opinion of columnists and bloggers... which worries me :-\
Stay worried. You live in a society of naturally lazy people who want the information spoonfed, and are actually too stupid to remove the bias.
That's a general comment, rather than specifically about this subject.
-
That's a massive assumption, as we don't know what kind of UK\EU trade deal will be put in place in the event of Brexit. ::)
Its a fair assumption, as we aren't big enough like China, and other governments also need to raise shitloads of cash.
The same applies in return, making our manufacturing less viable. And despite protestations from the one eyed idiot who buggered us up in the first place, we need manufacturing as a vital contribution to our GDP.
Ultimately, I remain undecided, as the pros and cons of either are even in the short term. Long term, I think we'd be soft in the head to leave, but the short term gains may just be enough for me...
-
When this goes to a Public Vote, were probably be out of the EU as the majority of people will be voting with their 'Immigration, Border Control, Brussels make the Rules' goggles on, rather than the full picture and the benefits that EU Membership can, may or not bring.
Personally I'm still undecided, which probably means my gut feeling thinks we should stay in, at least for the time being, rather than we should definitely be out. :-\
-
No one understands the issues involved, it will just be the immigration thing that might get them off their arses & down the road to vote.
If it`s a vote to leave the EU then Cameron is finished & IDS & his cronies will wheel out the ID card borricks again. IDS has already said that if we leave the EU, "it will help to prevent a Paris style Massacre"; the sh%t stirer. >:(
Who in their right minds thinks that the current Govt. has the remotest idea what the hell they`re going do if leave the EU.
What a bloody shambles.
-
That's a massive assumption, as we don't know what kind of UK\EU trade deal will be put in place in the event of Brexit. ::)
Its a fair assumption, as we aren't big enough like China, and other governments also need to raise shitloads of cash.
Assumptions or opinions, massive, fair or otherwise shouldn't be presented as facts. That's all. ;)
I was glad though to see Cameron rule out a second referendum. If we vote to leave and invoke Article 50, then our negotiating position would be weak and the EU would demand very unfavourable terms for Britain's exit terms, to force a 'stay' vote in a second referendum. ::)
-
That's a massive assumption, as we don't know what kind of UK\EU trade deal will be put in place in the event of Brexit. ::)
Its a fair assumption, as we aren't big enough like China, and other governments also need to raise shitloads of cash.
Assumptions or opinions, massive, fair or otherwise shouldn't be presented as facts. That's all. ;)
I was glad though to see Cameron rule out a second referendum. If we vote to leave and invoke Article 50, then our negotiating position would be weak and the EU would demand very unfavourable terms for Britain's exit terms, to force a 'stay' vote in a second referendum. ::)
There can't be a second vote. This one is it. The UK will have to live with the outcome, either way. I, however, hopefully won't!
-
No one understands the issues involved, it will just be the immigration thing that might get them off their arses & down the road to vote.
If it`s a vote to leave the EU then Cameron is finished & IDS & his cronies will wheel out the ID card borricks again. IDS has already said that if we leave the EU, "it will help to prevent a Paris style Massacre"; the sh%t stirer. >:(
Who in their right minds thinks that the current Govt. has the remotest idea what the hell they`re going do if leave the EU.
What a bloody shambles.
This is the crux of the issue. Cameron agreed on the EU referendum in order to strike a deal with the more right wing tories at the last election. IMHO iIts not something that should be put to a referendum at all but we are where we are. Personally I don't share the leave campaign's optimism about what sort of trade deal we will get. I think its very telling that the two comparisons which are made are Norway and China. Neither of whom's position is remotely similar to our own.
let's just say that the result of the upcoming referendum could well finalise our decision as to whether we try to emigrate!
My wife and I are in this position too, as are a number of colleagues of mine. Until recently I worked for a FTSE 100 engineering firm, you know, the sort all the politician's love to be photographed in ;-). Its well known internally that a brexit will likely trigger the company moving its HQ into mainland europe - doubtless part-financed by generous EU incentives to do so.
If they do, about 450 jobs will go with them, along with tens/hundreds of millions in income tax, corporation tax, NI etc. People need to think more broadly than the "it costs us €x per day to stay in" argument. If we leave the EU, we will be competing with them for investment from outside Europe. I'm not sure thats a competition we are likely to win.
Sadly though, I suspect its going to be overly-simplified "it costs us €x per day to stay in" type soundbites and "Immigrants stole my spaniel" type media bulls**t that will end up deciding the argument. ::)
-
Rods2 has hit on the crux of my only problem with the EU (but it's, unfortunately, a big problem). We are headed into an "Ever closer" political union that is fundamentally undemocratic. Let's ask Tony Benn's 5 questions of the EU:
In the course of my life I have developed five little democratic questions. If one meets a powerful person--Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin or Bill Gates--ask them five questions: “What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
Not looking too good, is it?
The one (and only) thing I respect Nigel Farage for, personal insults aside, is, effectively, asking this of the EU president:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dranqFntNgo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dranqFntNgo)
He's got a good point, IMHO. The EU is taking over more and more of our sovereignty, yet there is only the most tenuous link between the MEPs we vote for and those at the top, who are, on the whole, failed politicians at the national level. How do we keep them honest and acting in our interests?
Cameron's negotiations are a complete irrelevance to me. Migrants and benefits are just a side issue, and he's making a pathetic attempt to respond to tabloid mischief. In my view, you can't pick and choose. If you give people access to our labour market, the benefits system comes with it. On asylum seekers, well, large areas of the middle east are becoming inhospitable. They won't go away as a result of some meddling in european politics. These aren't issues that are significant enough to contemplate causing the sort of shitstorm that leaving the EU will.
On the other hand, millions of lives were lost sorting things out the last time democracy failed on a large scale across mainland Europe. I'm not in any way comparing that with the present situation, but I believe we should guard the democracy we fought for very closely.
We have a one time chance to answer Benn's 5th question before it's lost for good. I don't doubt that life will be made very hard for us in the short term if we reject the EU, but I do wonder if it's a stand we need to make for future generations. :-\
-
Very well said Kevin. You got right to the heart of the matter. I was sat here thinking of how to express my view on this, but you said it much better than I could have done. :y
Most of the debate seems to be restricted to economic matters, and in my view the fact that Iceland, an economic minnow with a population the same size as Coventry, negotiated a trade deal with China, why could we do at least as well, if we were free to do so ?
We are the 5th largest economy in the world. Our economy is becoming more dynamic, while the rest of the EU is in a downward spiral with no sign of recovery. Our trade with the EU is falling fast while trade with the wider world is growing faster.
I could go on and on......
Economics, trade, etc. is not the most important factor though. If we allow it to become so, then we have allowed ourselves to become economic slaves.
The EU is utterly undemocratic and becoming less so, with each new power grab. Despite what Cameron says, the ratchet will only ever work one way. Its only possible chance of success (without reverting to being a common market) is through much more integration on everything from taxation to defence.
Its at a mid point in that regard currently, and it isn't working. It needs to either select reverse gear or go full speed ahead, and Juncker has already said that the EU doesn't have a reverse gear.
If we vote to remain, once the dust has settled, further integration will happen and happen quickly imo.
I cannot see how we could end up suffering as a result of leaving. It is against EU and international law to take punitive action against a state which leaves, and that is beside the fact that we are the EU,s biggest export market and have a much bigger stronger economy than most of them put together.
We would be in an extremely strong position to negotiate a very favourable trade deal with them.
But even if we weren't, I would rather be a free poor man than a (relatively) wealthy slave.
-
Despite all that has been said here.......I believe there will be a second referendum if the will of the people is not to the liking of some. :)
Maybe even a third. :)
That's democracy for you. :)
-
Despite all that has been said here.......I believe there will be a second referendum if the will of the people is not to the liking of some. :)
Maybe even a third. :)
That's democracy for you. :)
I agree if we vote to leave, the EU has a history of making concessions, and then getting the politicians to have another referendum until people vote the 'right way' and if the 'ins' win it will be like Scotland, a problem where the 'outs' will be such a large minority the issue is not going to go away.
-
Is it me? Or could Boris be Donald's love child? :o ;D
-
Is it me? Or could Boris be Donald's love child? :o ;D
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26795734/Smilies/allrun.gif)
-
This is one of the stupidities that really ticks me off >:( >:( >:(
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10565686/The-farce-of-the-EU-travelling-circus.html
-
This is one of the stupidities that really ticks me off >:( >:( >:(
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10565686/The-farce-of-the-EU-travelling-circus.html
They should let the Belgians keep it. It's the closest they've got to a functioning parliament!
-
Easy way out of this....Ms Sturgeon is already bleating on about a Scottish referendum for independence if the vote is to leave. What a back door excuse for her to get what they really want !!!!!
So...simples.....all the Scottish Nationalists vote out, this will boost the out vote. Then once out, Sturgeon will call for the thing nearest her heart, an independence referendum. If, as she spouts on about, the Scots want to be in Europe, the Nationalists will win easy this time, and she can go and join Europe if she wishes.
Everybody happy all round !!!! :y
-
Except that Ms Merkel won't have her. The Germans (who lets face it are the ones actually running the EU) got their fingers burnt by bending the rules to bring in a bunch of Eastern European states who are now a significant drain on the EU's resources. They have all the sick lame and lazy they can deal with so aren't gonig to accept a country with a dubious economy that has (probably) just defaulted on a large amount of sovereign debt.
TBH I wish the scots had voted for independence, they'd be screwed due to the low oil price by now ;D
-
Except that Ms Merkel won't have her. The Germans (who lets face it are the ones actually running the EU) got their fingers burnt by bending the rules to bring in a bunch of Eastern European states who are now a significant drain on the EU's resources. They have all the sick lame and lazy they can deal with so aren't gonig to accept a country with a dubious economy that has (probably) just defaulted on a large amount of sovereign debt.
TBH I wish the scots had voted for independence, they'd be screwed due to the low oil price by now ;D
Er no... Orkney and Shetland would have become independent of Scotland if that vote had gone the other way, so would have remained in the UK ;)
-
Interesting.. the poll here is massively in favour of the Brexit.
Polls in the paper seem to be roughly 50% in favour of staying in.
My prediction: We'll stay in by a narrow margin, Merkel will send in the troops to pacify us and we'll be come the New German Western Front.
I might have exaggerated the last bit.
-
Yes, it's interesting to look at similar polls at other forums too. ;)
-
Just been having a tout round a number of forums, and I have noticed one thing that seems to be prevalent....
it seems that a large number of people (mainly those on the 'Remain in' side, seem to be implying that all the Europeans living here will be booted out of their jobs and sent home (and indeed ex pats being sent back here) !!!!!!! Where did that come from.
We do need people to do these jobs. They will still wash your car for peanuts, try to undercut other trades. Pick cabbages. What will happen, I expect, is a tighter check on who is here.
Think of this....these jobs, that apparently no one wants to do, are jobs that don't require kids to stay at school till they are 18, don't need a myriad of exam passes, don't need College or University degrees. But that is the type of education every kid in this country is being pushed to do. And if a school does not educate a student to attain these dizzy heights, they are rated down and all hell breaks loose. So after passing all that the government are pushing these kids to do, they are then expected to pick cabbages.....I think not!!
You can't have it both ways !!! :y
-
Just been having a tout round a number of forums, and I have noticed one thing that seems to be prevalent....
it seems that a large number of people (mainly those on the 'Remain in' side, seem to be implying that all the Europeans living here will be booted out of their jobs and sent home (and indeed ex pats being sent back here) !!!!!!! Where did that come from.
We do need people to do these jobs. They will still wash your car for peanuts, try to undercut other trades. Pick cabbages. What will happen, I expect, is a tighter check on who is here.
Think of this....these jobs, that apparently no one wants to do, are jobs that don't require kids to stay at school till they are 18, don't need a myriad of exam passes, don't need College or University degrees. But that is the type of education every kid in this country is being pushed to do. And if a school does not educate a student to attain these dizzy heights, they are rated down and all hell breaks loose. So after passing all that the government are pushing these kids to do, they are then expected to pick cabbages.....I think not!!
You can't have it both ways !!! :y
Yes. But there are plenty of kids who do not attain the kind of qualifications the government wants. Those jobs would be better going to them, even if they needed the threat of withdrawal of benefits to make them do it.
-
I do agree with you, Steve...maybe my posting did not give that impression. But there is a higher level of qualifications than in my/our younger days. And, dare I say it, the world of IT does not help. Even the 'unqualified' seem to be able to do IT !!
Lets put it like this (and maybe I am not normal) but if I was out of work, I would pull cabbages to support my family during my working days. I had to resort to something similar in my younger days till eventually an opening appeared from which I never looked back.
Probably the attitude of 'I will get benefits' nowadays, but that is another topic.
I want 'out', but, I can fully understand people trying to get here from Europe to support their families. To me that situation, shows just how successful the EU is.....not
-
The "view" on expat forums is that expats living elsewhere in Europe for some time will keep their rights. Might be totally different though for someone to go and live the dream after a Brexit. Spain for example a few years ago implemented a rule that said immigrants had to show that they had the means to support themselves and buy healthcare. That and no jobs for anyone, put people off.
It would be totally unmanageable to have everyone repatriated to their home country so you can rule that out.
What is interesting is we focus on people doing low paid jobs. I understand that the number of French folk living and working in London would make it the sixth biggest French city by population. They won't all be in low paid jobs.
I have said it before but this government and the last needed 100,000's of immigrant workers and thus paid lip service to managing numbers. maybe what they didn't do was augment the local infrastructure to cope with the numbers from the wealth created.
-
I have said it before but this government and the last needed 100,000's of immigrant workers and thus paid lip service to managing numbers. maybe what they didn't do was augment the local infrastructure to cope with the numbers from the wealth created.
Indeed, and I've seen no evidence of migrants to the UK coming to sponge off the benefits system, and plenty of evidence of them coming here to put some hard graft in, tabloid hysteria aside. Naturally, they will be blamed when public services don't cope, and then Cameron is "seen" to do "something", so everything's fine and dandy. Must think we were born yesterday.
We are attractive because our economy is doing rather better than most in Europe, not because of our benefits system.
-
When I mentioned benefits, I was referring to what I suspect is the 'could not care less' attitude of some youths (and others) thinking the state would look after them, not migrants (the majority) looking to come here just for benefits. Most, as you say, do put in really hard graft.
And as you so rightly point out.......its the infrastructure that just can't cope. You know it, I know it, but politicians seem to be blinkered on the subject !!!!
In my mind, Cameron is akin to Chamberlain (Peace in out time) waving his bit of paper, which as we all know, was a total con !!! :y
-
Yes, Cameron seems to think that none of his "subjects" think beyond the tabloid headlines.
And as you so rightly point out.......its the infrastructure that just can't cope. You know it, I know it, but politicians seem to be blinkered on the subject !!!!
Problem is, it costs money to sort out. Raising taxes / cutting benefits does not a career politician make. ::)
-
Over the last year or so, Cameron is coming across as "Take no notice of anyone else, I'm telling you so it must right". Arrogant and dismissive. When he spouts numbers from the dispatch box, he expects people to just accept them and not actually go away and check.
It's been the downfall of many before him.
-
Over the last year or so, Cameron is coming across as "Take no notice of anyone else, I'm telling you so it must right". Arrogant and dismissive. When he spouts numbers from the dispatch box, he expects people to just accept them and not actually go away and check.
It's been the downfall of many before him.
And unfortunately the lack of a credible opposition only encourages this sort of behaviour. >:(
-
Over the last year or so, Cameron is coming across as "Take no notice of anyone else, I'm telling you so it must right". Arrogant and dismissive. When he spouts numbers from the dispatch box, he expects people to just accept them and not actually go away and check.
It's been the downfall of many before him.
And unfortunately the lack of a credible opposition only encourages this sort of behaviour. >:(
Yep, he's not held accountable at the dispatch box because Corbyn consistently fails to spot the open goal. ::)
-
Impressive podcast interview well worth listening to, with UKIP's only MP Douglas Carswell.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/02/24/in-a-week-dominated-by-the-eu-ukips-douglas-carswell-is-this-weeks-pbpolling-matters-special-guest/ (http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/02/24/in-a-week-dominated-by-the-eu-ukips-douglas-carswell-is-this-weeks-pbpolling-matters-special-guest/)
There are two sides to immigration, the skilled we need and should welcome and the unskilled that could be done by the UK unemployed. Many unskilled unemployed immigrants are being exploited by the unscrupulous at wages well below the minimum, as Ben Judah's book "This is London" shown in his article below:
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/opinions/london-where-people-cling-to-prayer-not-politics-boris-johnson-immigration-minimum-wage (http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/opinions/london-where-people-cling-to-prayer-not-politics-boris-johnson-immigration-minimum-wage)
-
Impressive podcast interview well worth listening to, with UKIP's only MP Douglas Carswell.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/02/24/in-a-week-dominated-by-the-eu-ukips-douglas-carswell-is-this-weeks-pbpolling-matters-special-guest/ (http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/02/24/in-a-week-dominated-by-the-eu-ukips-douglas-carswell-is-this-weeks-pbpolling-matters-special-guest/)
There are two sides to immigration, the skilled we need and should welcome and the unskilled that could be done by the UK unemployed. Many unskilled unemployed immigrants are being exploited by the unscrupulous at wages well below the minimum, as Ben Judah's book "This is London" shown in his article below:
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/opinions/london-where-people-cling-to-prayer-not-politics-boris-johnson-immigration-minimum-wage (http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/opinions/london-where-people-cling-to-prayer-not-politics-boris-johnson-immigration-minimum-wage)
Except a lot of them think they're either above it or are "entitled" to their benefits :-X >:(
-
Cameron seems to be developing a Mugabe complex. He has banned civil servants who work for ministers who are campaigning to leave from having access to government briefings and are only allowed to be involved in the leave campaign in their own time.
Those working for ministers who campaign to remain are allowed full access and can campaign during working hours, paid for by us taxpayers.
Blair taught him well. ::)
-
Impressive podcast interview well worth listening to, with UKIP's only MP Douglas Carswell.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/02/24/in-a-week-dominated-by-the-eu-ukips-douglas-carswell-is-this-weeks-pbpolling-matters-special-guest/ (http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/02/24/in-a-week-dominated-by-the-eu-ukips-douglas-carswell-is-this-weeks-pbpolling-matters-special-guest/)
There are two sides to immigration, the skilled we need and should welcome and the unskilled that could be done by the UK unemployed. Many unskilled unemployed immigrants are being exploited by the unscrupulous at wages well below the minimum, as Ben Judah's book "This is London" shown in his article below:
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/opinions/london-where-people-cling-to-prayer-not-politics-boris-johnson-immigration-minimum-wage (http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/opinions/london-where-people-cling-to-prayer-not-politics-boris-johnson-immigration-minimum-wage)
Except a lot of them think they're either above it or are "entitled" to their benefits :-X >:(
Which is why, in those circumstances, they should be told to pick cabbages or starve. When you have them by the balls their hearts & minds will follow. ;)
-
Impressive podcast interview well worth listening to, with UKIP's only MP Douglas Carswell.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/02/24/in-a-week-dominated-by-the-eu-ukips-douglas-carswell-is-this-weeks-pbpolling-matters-special-guest/ (http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/02/24/in-a-week-dominated-by-the-eu-ukips-douglas-carswell-is-this-weeks-pbpolling-matters-special-guest/)
There are two sides to immigration, the skilled we need and should welcome and the unskilled that could be done by the UK unemployed. Many unskilled unemployed immigrants are being exploited by the unscrupulous at wages well below the minimum, as Ben Judah's book "This is London" shown in his article below:
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/opinions/london-where-people-cling-to-prayer-not-politics-boris-johnson-immigration-minimum-wage (http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/opinions/london-where-people-cling-to-prayer-not-politics-boris-johnson-immigration-minimum-wage)
Except a lot of them think they're either above it or are "entitled" to their benefits :-X >:(
Which is why, in those circumstances, they should be told to pick cabbages or starve. When you have them by the balls their hearts & minds will follow. ;)
Errr... If they don't prove that they are actively seeking work they don't get JSA but it doesn't make them do it ;)
And those that do just make sure they aren't employable... Some of the dross I've had turn up for interview is just mind boggling!
-
At risk of being controversial ::) if there were no benefit system, they would have little choice... that said, there are those who genuinely need the support that benefits provide, so flawed as it is, the current system is a reasonable one imho.
Some people really do need a damn good kick up the arse though, either working for food and shelter* or possibly shooting, but which is preferred depends on your position on the Lenin perspective. Neither really works unless the status quo is torn up.
*Charity or slavery? You decide.
-
At risk of being controversial. ::)
If UK firms paid decent wages then maybe youngsters would be more interested in getting out of bed in the morning. It seems that the default wage these days is minimum wage, or the so called living wage as they now call it. ::) I don't know much about the benefits system as I've never claimed, but if you can get money for nothing and it's not much less than minimum wage or in some cases more especially where kids are involved I find it hard to condemn them to be honest. In many areas the ' benefits culture' is so entrenched that people think it's perfectly normal to claim. ::)
Between 2001 and 2008, I drove lorries for a living and worked for a firm that hauled chilled foods from food producers into all the major supermarkets distribution centres. Prior to 2004, all the workers in these places were locals and got good wages. Sainsbury's for example paid kids £20,000 to push a pallet around. After 2004 and within a year pretty much all of these youngsters had been replaced by Eastern Europeans doing the same job on short term, minimum wage contracts. :(
So while mass immigration has been great for UK plc, I can't think it has been good for Society and I often wonder what happened to all those local youngsters working in the places I used to go to in my trucking career. :-\
I expect I'll get banned now for talking like a socialist! ;D
-
The problem is that our labour market has opened up to include people who are used to living on a very much lower wage than here, mainly because they come from a place where the cost of living is much lower, and are happy to endure worse living standards here for the money. Industry has exploited that.
I suspect the UK has benefited in that Sainsbury's now make more profit on a pint of milk than they did. They are still screwing the dairy farmers into the ground on the purchasing side, so the benefit hasn't gone down the supply chain. Up to the shareholders and CEO, then. Great. ::)
We could increase the minimum wage, but that only exacerbates the problem of cost of living and widens the gap between us and the overseas labour markets. In any case, employers find other ways of getting round the minimum wage, especially for migrant labour where the employees don't know their rights and they can work under the radar.
The same story is happening in all domains around the EU. It was a group of smaller markets, all different, often quite radically different, but coexisting with enough resistance to mobility that they coexisted happily. Remove the resistance overnight and we have all sorts of problems, like trying to run the economies of Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Ireland on an economic model that works just fine for Germany.
The EU has put everything into the same pot without allowing enough time (possibly a generation or two are required) for things to level out naturally. In some cases the differences are more cultural, so probably won't work themselves out even given time. Can you ever see Greece or Spain matching German levels of productivity? Can they do so without being culturally ruined in the process? Is there a need for them to do so, other than to make a fundamentally flawed currency union project work?
-
I suspect the UK has benefited in that Sainsbury's now make more profit on a pint of milk than they did. They are still screwing the dairy farmers into the ground on the purchasing side, so the benefit hasn't gone down the supply chain. Up to the shareholders and CEO, then. Great. ::)
While I won't argue the corner of the CEO's, before we condemn the amount of money flowing to the shareholders, we should probably consider who those shareholders are. A lot of them, are us. Ok, to be more specific, anyone who has a non-public sector backed pension (and even some of those iirc). Pension companies/funds are some of the biggest institutional investors, they invest and grow our pension pots based on returns (both dividend and capital) from the stock and bond markets. Its not all about the mega wealthy creaming off the dividends from their multi-million pound portfolios.
-
I have recently read a brilliant book on the subject of the EU - The trouble with Europe, by Roger Bootle.
It isn't propaganda by some swivel eyed loon. Bootle is a very well respected, award winning economist. His default position is that he would like the UK to remain in the EU, but it would require serious reform for that to happen.
Im convinced that Cameron read this book before his Bloomberg speech and was inspired by it, but unfortunately lost his bottle between then and now.
The book isn't light reading by any stretch, but covers all aspects of the EU in great detail, with a highly knowledgeable, intelligent approach.
I would dearly like to see everyone who intends to vote, read this book before they do. If you feel as though you could be better informed, or if you believe, as I do, that we should all challenge our own beliefs from time to time, then I doubt you could do any better than read this book.
-
I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than read anything by him. During the financial crisis of the naughties, old Roger was on the telly every five minutes...telling us how bad things really were and forecasting doom and gloom for all and sundry.
His predictions turned out to be just like every other 'experts', guesswork at best. No one, and I mean no one, can forecast with accuracy the outcome of any changes to the complicated, international financial framework that exists today. And, as Rog is an economist, I take it that was the matter he was offering his opinion on. There are too many outside variables. Other world economic powers can drastically affect the situation within the EU, and the situation is very fluid at this time.
We'll know what leaving will mean if we leave....not before ;D
-
I don't know who this fella is, never heard of him but he certainly has a point of view! :)
http://www.andywilliamson.com/10-points-to-consider-about-brexit-and-the-eu-referendum/
-
There are two sides to economics the maths based part which is useful and used to calculate absolutes and the catastrophe theory side, the flap of a butterfly's wings etc which is human behavioural driven which makes predicting the future have very little accuracy beyond guessing, once you stray much beyond near 'steady state' into volatile situations when you can forget any figures being even of the right order of magnitude.
The last major flap of the butterfly's wings was once bankers realised that the CDOs that they had been sold as AAA investments and loaded onto their balance sheets were actually subprime. You can thank Bill Clinton for that and his law to get everybody on to the housing market regardless of income!
Systems having known calculable and random event sides are not unusual with climate being another good example.
-
I don't know who this fella is, never heard of him but he certainly has a point of view! :)
http://www.andywilliamson.com/10-points-to-consider-about-brexit-and-the-eu-referendum/
It's a point of view, a highly inaccurate one in many areas, but like you say a point of view.