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[Dishevelled Den]

Good Morning! Seems like I missed out on the debate last night … so here are three observations:

Curious how any members of this forum can claim to hate “Europe” when the one thing that brings us together is owning German cars. It is interesting to see what the people who complain about the run down of British industry are actually driving.

Smoking ban - I can imagine a picture now of the tobacco companies like devils rubbing their hands and cackling at how their slaves are squabbling about where and how they can get their fix. The real criminal here is the greed of the corporations for making a cynical profit out of human weakness. Or is it the governments over the years who have failed to regulate becuase they are afraid of losing the tax revenue? Or is it me because I allow (encourage) my pension fund to lend my money to the tobacco companies? Answers on a postcard please. Address it to yourself.

One member complained about the consequences of breaking the speed limit when on a “relaxing” drive. Another wrote about being fearful of letting his kids play in the street because of speeding cars. Hmmm… I wonder if there’s any connection here? [/sarcasm]

I reiterate my point yesterday about mutual obligations as well as “rights”.

Yesterday I said “stop moaning and do something about it”.  CtP suggested forming a new party - for which the response was along the lines of “oh no! can’t do that!”. So, instead, make sure you vote! How many of the moaners don’t vote because of ... whatever moany reason they have. Have you written to your MP? Do you know how your MP is? Ditto for MEP. Ditto for local councillor. Spoken to the independent candidate? Joined a trade union? Professional body? Trade association? Become an active member of a campaigning organisation - be it Amnesty, ASH, AA - whatever suits your need. Go to a local council meeting. And so on.

It starts with you …

[/patronise]

Just a few points K.

I certainly don't hate Europe as I served there for some time and maintain links with colleagues who remain there.

I am suspicious however of what the EU has become - a burgeoning bureaucracy that doesn't seem open to sanction for the excessive behaviour of its elite and members of its legislature.


mutual obligations

The obligation to be responsible not only as far as one's personal behaviour is concerned but responsible also to the institutions of state and to well being of others is, as far as I'm concerned, of primary importance and critical to the development of a sound society.


Have you written to your MP? Do you know how your MP is? Ditto for MEP. Ditto for local councillor. Spoken to the independent candidate? Joined a trade union? Professional body? Trade association? Become an active member of a campaigning organisation - be it Amnesty, ASH, AA - whatever suits your need. Go to a local council meeting. And so on.

Yes to many of those K as I don't believe in engaging in empty rhetoric – to which many in officialdom will wearyingly attest.

[Nickbat]

My word, Lizzie, you have changed. I always thought of you as a defender of individual freedom..a true conservative (small "c").

I can't be bothered to respond to all your points as I have more important things to do right now, but I will say that your statement....

"You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process."

..is utter tosh.   

Fine, as usual we will agree to disagree as I do believe  in personal freedom, but not at a cost to others.  The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive and I am sorry to say very boring. 

As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression.  But of course you admitted to me you are "not up to it"! 

I'm sorry, E, but you wound me up earlier. Yes, I have become anti-establishment and, no, I don't think that the government and civil service are working hard to improve our lives within a democratic framework. We are currently run by a PM who has no mandate to hold such office. Petty bureacracy has run amok. Far too many in positions of power have shown themselves to be corrupt (witness the expenses scandal).

No, I can't do anything about it, personally, other than to cast my vote accordingly in the 6 May election. It's not that I'm "not up to it" as you assert.
I have a wife and two young children - and I am self employed. I simply do not have the time to go into full-time, or even part-time political activism.

Equally, I am sorry you find my posts boring. If others feel the same, I shall happily quit.

This is a car forum, but this area is a general discussion area and I was responding to an invitation to submit my views about the state of the country. Which I did.

When so many, and I mean so many, people state they can't be bothered to vote because "they're all the same" and "it won't make any difference", I can only conclude that the democratic process has stalled and that the establishment is accordingly free to do as it wishes...and is currently doing so.

 

[cruisetopoland]

This has been a most interesting topic and has made me think more about the subject.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to post accordingly.  As per the "how to..." video, anyone can always move on to another thread if they find posts of a particular nature not of personal interest.

Some strong ideas, some great retorts-the first political thread I have actively contributed to, so a new thing for me.

I have a wife and young family and we struggle to get by but try to make the best of it-knowing that with our busy life and hectic workload we have only the vote to change policies-we are not at the stage in life where we can do much else.

Frustration could rule-but we accept the good with the bad and look forward 

Cheers, everyone for a lively and interesting thread 

[alfie]

Hi,just a personel view about our present lords and masters,who tend to have 2 very expensive homes.
Our local MP was ALWAYS Labour,eg the imfamous Michael Foot,then LLew Smith.
When LLew Smith decided to stand down at the next election,Labour decided to parachute their own candidate to fight the seat,thinking that the outcome was a forgone conclosuion,(a union worker from head office if I remember correctly).Blairs Babes!
Anyway the local party and residents took this as a insult,and a few lauched their own party,and He won the seat which had been one of labours safest in the whole country.
So it go,s to prove that the people have the power to make change if they get out of their armchairs and vote.
By the way the Labour Party choice also got herself a seat in the House of Lords at a later date.
Its a funny old world is politics.
                    Alfie

[Lizzie_Zoom]

My word, Lizzie, you have changed. I always thought of you as a defender of individual freedom..a true conservative (small "c").

I can't be bothered to respond to all your points as I have more important things to do right now, but I will say that your statement....

"You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process."

..is utter tosh.   

Fine, as usual we will agree to disagree as I do believe  in personal freedom, but not at a cost to others.  The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive and I am sorry to say very boring. 

As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression.  But of course you admitted to me you are "not up to it"! 

I'm sorry, E, but you wound me up earlier. Yes, I have become anti-establishment and, no, I don't think that the government and civil service are working hard to improve our lives within a democratic framework. We are currently run by a PM who has no mandate to hold such office. Petty bureacracy has run amok. Far too many in positions of power have shown themselves to be corrupt (witness the expenses scandal).

No, I can't do anything about it, personally, other than to cast my vote accordingly in the 6 May election. It's not that I'm "not up to it" as you assert.
I have a wife and two young children - and I am self employed. I simply do not have the time to go into full-time, or even part-time political activism.

Equally, I am sorry you find my posts boring. If others feel the same, I shall happily quit.

This is a car forum, but this area is a general discussion area and I was responding to an invitation to submit my views about the state of the country. Which I did.

When so many, and I mean so many, people state they can't be bothered to vote because "they're all the same" and "it won't make any difference", I can only conclude that the democratic process has stalled and that the establishment is accordingly free to do as it wishes...and is currently doing so.

 

I'm sorry as well Nick!   I think both our debates have become too deep as we are both passionate about each of our view points.  I was wound up as well with the heat of passion, and perhaps at times I am too loyal to Britain and its ancient establishment, but once I get going.........!!

Ignore, as I am sure you will, my suggestion that you should stop raising the issues you do.  You have of course every right to do so, even though I get frustrated with the issue of global warming / climate change and what I see as some dogma   Perhaps even I will rejoin that debate and see your point of view

Anyway let's draw a line under all the bickering if you are willing too and debate as friends again seeking democratic debate without personal attack 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

All the very best Nick

[Nickbat]

My word, Lizzie, you have changed. I always thought of you as a defender of individual freedom..a true conservative (small "c").

I can't be bothered to respond to all your points as I have more important things to do right now, but I will say that your statement....

"You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process."

..is utter tosh.   

Fine, as usual we will agree to disagree as I do believe  in personal freedom, but not at a cost to others.  The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive and I am sorry to say very boring. 

As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression.  But of course you admitted to me you are "not up to it"! 

I'm sorry, E, but you wound me up earlier. Yes, I have become anti-establishment and, no, I don't think that the government and civil service are working hard to improve our lives within a democratic framework. We are currently run by a PM who has no mandate to hold such office. Petty bureacracy has run amok. Far too many in positions of power have shown themselves to be corrupt (witness the expenses scandal).

No, I can't do anything about it, personally, other than to cast my vote accordingly in the 6 May election. It's not that I'm "not up to it" as you assert.
I have a wife and two young children - and I am self employed. I simply do not have the time to go into full-time, or even part-time political activism.

Equally, I am sorry you find my posts boring. If others feel the same, I shall happily quit.

This is a car forum, but this area is a general discussion area and I was responding to an invitation to submit my views about the state of the country. Which I did.

When so many, and I mean so many, people state they can't be bothered to vote because "they're all the same" and "it won't make any difference", I can only conclude that the democratic process has stalled and that the establishment is accordingly free to do as it wishes...and is currently doing so.

 

I'm sorry as well Nick!   I think both our debates have become too deep as we are both passionate about each of our view points.  I was wound up as well with the heat of passion, and perhaps at times I am too loyal to Britain and its ancient establishment, but once I get going.........!!

Ignore, as I am sure you will, my suggestion that you should stop raising the issues you do.  You have of course every right to do so, even though I get frustrated with the issue of global warming / climate change and what I see as some dogma   Perhaps even I will rejoin that debate and see your point of view

Anyway let's draw a line under all the bickering if you are willing too and debate as friends again seeking democratic debate without personal attack 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

All the very best Nick

Yes, time for few deep breaths, methinks. No harm done.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

My word, Lizzie, you have changed. I always thought of you as a defender of individual freedom..a true conservative (small "c").

I can't be bothered to respond to all your points as I have more important things to do right now, but I will say that your statement....

"You are blinding yourse4lf to the fact that the vast majority of the 'establishment' is run by the people working hard within it, for the people of this nation, under a democratic process."

..is utter tosh.   

Fine, as usual we will agree to disagree as I do believe  in personal freedom, but not at a cost to others.  The anti-establishment dogma you are stuck in on all your postings is destructive and I am sorry to say very boring. 

As I have said to you before, if you really believe in your arguments on global warming / climate change / UK democracy / personal freedom then go out into the big wide world of politics and use your voice there in a full campaign of expression.  But of course you admitted to me you are "not up to it"! 

I'm sorry, E, but you wound me up earlier. Yes, I have become anti-establishment and, no, I don't think that the government and civil service are working hard to improve our lives within a democratic framework. We are currently run by a PM who has no mandate to hold such office. Petty bureacracy has run amok. Far too many in positions of power have shown themselves to be corrupt (witness the expenses scandal).

No, I can't do anything about it, personally, other than to cast my vote accordingly in the 6 May election. It's not that I'm "not up to it" as you assert.
I have a wife and two young children - and I am self employed. I simply do not have the time to go into full-time, or even part-time political activism.

Equally, I am sorry you find my posts boring. If others feel the same, I shall happily quit.

This is a car forum, but this area is a general discussion area and I was responding to an invitation to submit my views about the state of the country. Which I did.

When so many, and I mean so many, people state they can't be bothered to vote because "they're all the same" and "it won't make any difference", I can only conclude that the democratic process has stalled and that the establishment is accordingly free to do as it wishes...and is currently doing so.

 

I'm sorry as well Nick!   I think both our debates have become too deep as we are both passionate about each of our view points.  I was wound up as well with the heat of passion, and perhaps at times I am too loyal to Britain and its ancient establishment, but once I get going.........!!

Ignore, as I am sure you will, my suggestion that you should stop raising the issues you do.  You have of course every right to do so, even though I get frustrated with the issue of global warming / climate change and what I see as some dogma   Perhaps even I will rejoin that debate and see your point of view

Anyway let's draw a line under all the bickering if you are willing too and debate as friends again seeking democratic debate without personal attack 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

All the very best Nick

Yes, time for few deep breaths, methinks. No harm done.

 

[albitz]

May I just say that I too am loyal to Britain and its ancient establishments (despite its many faults) but I firmly believe that the old establishment has been rather quietly killed off in the last decade or so and been replaced by something quite sinister and worryingly undemocratic.
The men in pinstripe suits have been replaced by closet Marxists in Armani suits.

[Nickbat]

May I just say that I too am loyal to Britain and its ancient establishments (despite its many faults) but I firmly believe that the old establishment has been rather quietly killed off in the last decade or so and been replaced by something quite sinister and worryingly undemocratic.
The men in pinstripe suits have been replaced by closet Marxists in Armani suits.

Agreed. 

[Dishevelled Den]

May I just say that I too am loyal to Britain and its ancient establishments (despite its many faults) but I firmly believe that the old establishment has been rather quietly killed off in the last decade or so and been replaced by something quite sinister and worryingly undemocratic.
The men in pinstripe suits have been replaced by closet Marxists in Armani suits.

Agreed. 

.....and links quite neatly back to here;



Since its founding in 1945, as essentially a diplomatic talking shop headquartered in the U.S., the U.N. has ballooned into a sort of post-colonial global empire, involving scores of thousands of staff, peacekeepers, agencies and proliferating agendas worldwide. With that has come a voracious hunger for money, in which U.N. planners keep casting an acquisitive eye at global commerce, looking for ways to tap in and open the spigots straight into the U.N.‘s coffers.


Read more here;

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/19434

[kevinminton]

I am suspicious however of what the EU has become - a burgeoning bureaucracy that doesn't seem open to sanction for the excessive behaviour of its elite and members of its legislature.[/highlight]


mutual obligations

The obligation to be responsible not only as far as one's personal behaviour is concerned but responsible also to the institutions of state and to well being of others is, as far as I'm concerned, of primary importance and critical to the development of a sound society.


Have you written to your MP? Do you know how your MP is? Ditto for MEP. Ditto for local councillor. Spoken to the independent candidate? Joined a trade union? Professional body? Trade association? Become an active member of a campaigning organisation - be it Amnesty, ASH, AA - whatever suits your need. Go to a local council meeting. And so on.

Yes to many of those K as I don't believe in engaging in empty rhetoric – to which many in officialdom will wearyingly attest.

Good morning all

Thanks Zvengali sorry, Zulu, for your response. A debate for a future time will be whether the Lisbon Treaty will address the "democratic deficit" in the EU as intended, and whehter the separation of powers model that we are familiar with here in the UK (and of course US and elsewhere) holds good when applied to the EU institutions.

For all OOF members that feel their MP is out of touch - see http://www.theyworkforyou.com/. You can find your MP and send them a message - as quick & easy as posting on OOF.

And following compulsory gender re-assignment, try googling "lgbt forum"

K

[albitz]

I am suspicious however of what the EU has become - a burgeoning bureaucracy that doesn't seem open to sanction for the excessive behaviour of its elite and members of its legislature.[/highlight]


mutual obligations

The obligation to be responsible not only as far as one's personal behaviour is concerned but responsible also to the institutions of state and to well being of others is, as far as I'm concerned, of primary importance and critical to the development of a sound society.


Have you written to your MP? Do you know how your MP is? Ditto for MEP. Ditto for local councillor. Spoken to the independent candidate? Joined a trade union? Professional body? Trade association? Become an active member of a campaigning organisation - be it Amnesty, ASH, AA - whatever suits your need. Go to a local council meeting. And so on.

Yes to many of those K as I don't believe in engaging in empty rhetoric – to which many in officialdom will wearyingly attest.

Good morning all

Thanks Zvengali sorry, Zulu, for your response. A debate for a future time will be whether the Lisbon Treaty will address the "democratic deficit" in the EU as intended, and whehter the separation of powers model that we are familiar with here in the UK (and of course US and elsewhere) holds good when applied to the EU institutions.

For all OOF members that feel their MP is out of touch - see http://www.theyworkforyou.com/. You can find your MP and send them a message - as quick & easy as posting on OOF.

And following compulsory gender re-assignment, try googling "lgbt forum"

K

.............I havent laughed so much since auntie Mable caught her left tit in the mangle.

[Dishevelled Den]

I am suspicious however of what the EU has become - a burgeoning bureaucracy that doesn't seem open to sanction for the excessive behaviour of its elite and members of its legislature.[/highlight]


mutual obligations

The obligation to be responsible not only as far as one's personal behaviour is concerned but responsible also to the institutions of state and to well being of others is, as far as I'm concerned, of primary importance and critical to the development of a sound society.


Have you written to your MP? Do you know how your MP is? Ditto for MEP. Ditto for local councillor. Spoken to the independent candidate? Joined a trade union? Professional body? Trade association? Become an active member of a campaigning organisation - be it Amnesty, ASH, AA - whatever suits your need. Go to a local council meeting. And so on.

Yes to many of those K as I don't believe in engaging in empty rhetoric – to which many in officialdom will wearyingly attest.

Good morning all

Thanks Zvengali sorry, Zulu, for your response. A debate for a future time will be whether the Lisbon Treaty will address the "democratic deficit" in the EU as intended, and whehter the separation of powers model that we are familiar with here in the UK (and of course US and elsewhere) holds good when applied to the EU institutions.

For all OOF members that feel their MP is out of touch - see http://www.theyworkforyou.com/. You can find your MP and send them a message - as quick & easy as posting on OOF.

And following compulsory gender re-assignment, try googling "lgbt forum"

K

I'll look forward to it K - the democratic deficit debate that is - however LGBT reminds me too much of reckless youth and Madame Jo Jo's

[Dishevelled Den]

I am suspicious however of what the EU has become - a burgeoning bureaucracy that doesn't seem open to sanction for the excessive behaviour of its elite and members of its legislature.[/highlight]


mutual obligations

The obligation to be responsible not only as far as one's personal behaviour is concerned but responsible also to the institutions of state and to well being of others is, as far as I'm concerned, of primary importance and critical to the development of a sound society.


Have you written to your MP? Do you know how your MP is? Ditto for MEP. Ditto for local councillor. Spoken to the independent candidate? Joined a trade union? Professional body? Trade association? Become an active member of a campaigning organisation - be it Amnesty, ASH, AA - whatever suits your need. Go to a local council meeting. And so on.

Yes to many of those K as I don't believe in engaging in empty rhetoric – to which many in officialdom will wearyingly attest.

Good morning all

Thanks Zvengali sorry, Zulu, for your response. A debate for a future time will be whether the Lisbon Treaty will address the "democratic deficit" in the EU as intended, and whehter the separation of powers model that we are familiar with here in the UK (and of course US and elsewhere) holds good when applied to the EU institutions.

For all OOF members that feel their MP is out of touch - see http://www.theyworkforyou.com/. You can find your MP and send them a message - as quick & easy as posting on OOF.

And following compulsory gender re-assignment, try googling "lgbt forum"

K

.............I havent laughed so much since auntie Mable caught her left tit in the mangle.

Lordy, Lordy A - does that song bring back memories for me or what? 8-)

[mathewst]

That is quite sad to hear. Has anything improved? (road network maybe?)

Sorry Varche for a slow reply.
Yes actually the roads did improve and that is maybe the only thing better.
But in fact we now have highways which are bloody expensive and sitt empy all year except summer