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[cem_devecioglu]

The UN is a useless entity everyone else ignores it why don't we???

Spray the bloody place with Sodium Chlorate and we'll face the consequence later.

Fortunately, for you, me, and a few million others, the UK (and many other countries) actually believe in the rule of law, it sometimes rankles (Abu Qutada), it often annoys (Welfare Payments), it causes massive sorrow (Afghanistan), but..... at the end of the day .. it actually protects us from an awful lot worse, and many millions of people have given their lives to uphold the simple, but often misquoted ... rule of law

Believe me .. we would be in a far worse place without it.

definitely

[Lizzie_Zoom]

The UN is a useless entity everyone else ignores it why don't we???

Spray the bloody place with Sodium Chlorate and we'll face the consequence later.

Fortunately, for you, me, and a few million others, the UK (and many other countries) actually believe in the rule of law, it sometimes rankles (Abu Qutada), it often annoys (Welfare Payments), it causes massive sorrow (Afghanistan), but..... at the end of the day .. it actually protects us from an awful lot worse, and many millions of people have given their lives to uphold the simple, but often misquoted ... rule of law

Believe me .. we would be in a far worse place without it.

Absolutely right Eastwood

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Humans are violent territorial animals. As this is instinctive along with banding together into groups for mutual protection, like packs or herd of animals and shoals of fish, it will never change.

The most dangerous animal to man is man.

Ah, now Rods2 you have hit on the prime problem; man's natural state.

Have you read Leviathan, Penguin Books, first published 1651, by the philosopher Thomas Hobbs (1588-1679)?  It, in my opinion, correctly summarizes, chapter 13, page 185-188, mans weakness for "warre", and also being in a constant state of "warre", being his natural determination.  The book explains far more, but this particular section hits on the main issue.  

[Lizzie_Zoom]

It's actually not a question of faith at all. Faith is personal and spiritual.

Although it may seem, on the surface, that faith causes wars/unrest, the truth is somewhat more complex. Humans have an in-built herd instinct and a need to feel secure as part of a wider group. Often, religion is a handy tag, but dig deeper and you'll often find that many of those who claim to be religious have little if no concept of the detail of the faith to which they apparently adhere.

In reality, many humans seek like-minded souls for security. This can often be, at a local level, support for a football team . You only need to look at Rangers and Celtic to see this at work. However, it's got sod all to do with faith. There are just as many "local derby" matches, at which the enmity between fans cannot be attributed to faith. Equally, the violence in the Uk in the 1950s between Mods and Rockers was between groups who felt that their gangs (= their security) was being threatened by others.

From a local to national level, we can see that neither WWW1 or WW2 was instigated through religious rivalry. In the case of the former, the leaders of Serbs and the Austro-Hungarians were rivals for power. In WW2, Hitler actually tried to sideline religion and merely used the danger to the security of the Arian race posed by gypsies and Jews to bind people together in the fight to maintain their apparent security.

What I am saying, albeit in a late-night long-winded way, is that blaming religion as a cause of strife is a cop-out. Even if there were no organised religions or faiths, humans would still find a way to bind themselves in groups and fight to protect their groups from perceived threats from other groups, however notional/imaginary.     

Exactly right Nick

[Johnny English]

The UN is a useless entity everyone else ignores it why don't we???

Spray the bloody place with Sodium Chlorate and we'll face the consequence later.

Fortunately, for you, me, and a few million others, the UK (and many other countries) actually believe in the rule of law, it sometimes rankles (Abu Qutada), it often annoys (Welfare Payments), it causes massive sorrow (Afghanistan), but..... at the end of the day .. it actually protects us from an awful lot worse, and many millions of people have given their lives to uphold the simple, but often misquoted ... rule of law

Believe me .. we would be in a far worse place without it.

Absolutely right Eastwood

 

[Rods2]

Humans are violent territorial animals. As this is instinctive along with banding together into groups for mutual protection, like packs or herd of animals and shoals of fish, it will never change.

The most dangerous animal to man is man.

Ah, now Rods2 you have hit on the prime problem; man's natural state.

Have you read Leviathan, Penguin Books, first published 1651, by the philosopher Thomas Hobbs (1588-1679)?  It, in my opinion, correctly summarizes, chapter 13, page 185-188, mans weakness for "warre", and also being in a constant state of "warre", being his natural determination.  The book explains far more, but this particular section hits on the main issue.

Thanks, for that reference as I haven't read his book, but I will now do so, probably over Christmas. I very good at skim reading, but you can't do that with old English, so it will take longer than normal. For those interested where the book is copyright free, this is the link:

http://manybooks.net/titles/hobbesthetext02lvthn10.html

"From Equality Proceeds Diffidence From this equality of ability, ariseth equality of hope in the attaining of
our Ends. And therefore if any two men desire the same thing, which neverthelesse they cannot both enjoy,
they become enemies; and in the way to their End, (which is principally their owne conservation, and
sometimes their delectation only,) endeavour to destroy, or subdue one an other. And from hence it comes to
passe, that where an Invader hath no more to feare, than an other mans single power; if one plant, sow, build,
or possesse a convenient Seat, others may probably be expected to come prepared with forces united, to
dispossesse, and deprive him, not only of the fruit of his labour, but also of his life, or liberty. And the Invader
again is in the like danger of another."

Very well put in the paragraph above. I also like how Science was viewed at the time in this sentence: "setting aside the arts grounded upon words, and especially that skill of proceeding upon generall, and infallible rules, called Science; which very few have, and but in few things; as being not a native faculty, born with us; nor attained, (as Prudence,) while we look after somewhat els". Where Science is: "infallible rules" - this is the first time I have seen it summed up so well in 2 words or you could sum up scientific research as: "The search for infallible rules". 

If you want a very good philosophical book on the writing of military history and the mechanics of battles through the analysis of a number of famous ones, I recommend John Keegan's book "The Face of Battle". One of my hobbies is history particularly 20th century military history.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I am very pleased Rods2 you are interested in that, and you are right about reading olde English , but you do get used to it

Apart from the section you quote, this is the one that really sets out Thomas Hobbes general belief, and his main topic of mankind needing a central power to control mans desires:

As Thomas Hobbes rightly summed up:

"Hereby it is manifest , that during the time men live without common Power to keep them all in awe, they are in a condition which is called Warre; and such a warre, as is of every man, against every man.  For WARRE , consisteth not in Battell onely, or the act of fighting; but in a tract of time, wherein the Will to contend by Battell is sufficiently known: and therefore the notion of Time, is to be considered in the nature of Warre; as it is in the nature of Weather. For as the nature of Foul weather , lyeth not in a showre or two of rain; but in an an inclination thereto of many dayes together: So the nature of War, consisteth not in actual fighting: but in the known disposition thereto, during all the time there is no assurance to the contrary.  All other time is PEACE."

Hobbes, T. Leviathan pp. 185, 186 Penguin (1651)

Overall a warning from history you could say;  May we all work together in the interests of mankind.

Hobbes was greatly influenced scientifically by Galileo, and he understand the principle of atoms streaming from what he considered the centre of the universe, or to us the "big bang".  He appreciated how the pure movement of ourselves and the objects around us could be deflected and change outcomes.

Thomas also met Bacon, giving him further scientific prospective, also discussing philosophy with other supporters of the enlightenment  Mersernne, Descartes and Gassendi (scientific enlightenment) whilst in exile in Paris.

A great man, well ahead of his time.