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[Varche]

Apart for all the facts surrounding the immigration and regardless we all feel about it, I will always be aware of one fact.

It was during the Labour Governments 13 years that THEY lost all control on immigration; a) they openly encouraged an open door approach and b) managed to lose all knowledge of how many immigrants had actually arrived in the UK.

The Coalition now have the immigration problem, amongst many, to deal with, along with the question of the EU which could resolve this and a number of issues!

I agree that Labour encouraged many immigrants. I suspect that whatever government had been in would have done the same. Britain needed those low paid workers to do the jobs Brits didn't want to do. There was pretty much full employment (excluding those Brits who never had any intention of working and just living off the state).  Times were prosperous and Britain was booming like other European countries. Spain during the same time encouraged anyone willing to wrok and who could speak Spanish to come to Spain. They got 1000 euros to help. They took out mortgages and settled in to low paid jobs that the Spanish did not want to do. Agriculture and building work. Then the bottom fell out of - well the world as the banks brought us to our knees. Now Spain is paying the immigrant(and any family) 400 euros to clear off (back to South America.) Many are leaving and losing everything they had including their flats. No long term social security here just Red Cross, The RC church and family. I blame the Border Agency for losing control of where people are. How can they sleep at night? Britain is one of the few countries in the EU where people can just disappear.

Even if the Coalition bite the bullet and say goodbye to the EU , no one will have the guts to sort out the issue. Amnesty would spring to mind and still the border agency would fail us for future illegals. Within five years I still say we will either be out of the EU or (heaven forbid) in the Euro.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I predict the Euro will be finished over the next 3-5 years Varche.

Greece, then Spain will do for it!

[albitz]

Varche,the myth about needing low paid imigrants to do the jobs Brits didnt want to do is just that.A complete myth.The first jobs they went for were jobs on building sites,plumbing and other general trades - not exactly the lowest paid jobs,but among the highest paid manual type jobs in the country.I know many bricklayers who lost their jobs due to recent arrivalls walking on site,asking how much bricklayers (and other trades) were being paid,and then immediately offered to undercut the people working there by 30- 40%.
Hence,,huge numbers of hard working British people put out of work by greedy employers with a short term view.
Thankfully there are signs of this tend now being reversed as appalling workmanship has cost them more in the long run,as remedial costs and company reputations caused the companies concerned more money in the long run.
When the company who I had grafted tirelessly for,for 20 years dismissed me instantly due to a degree of disabilty they replaced me with a young eastern european immigrant.I heard from many people he wasnt capable of doing half the work I did and the work he did do was of such low standard that they had to constantly go behind him and rectify it.That and the total disrexpect for the expensive machinery he used and the resultant damage to it,meant that it would have been cheaper to pay him  not to come to work at all. The company carried on with this policy for a while and after 50 years of employing local people,they went bust.
They started up again under a slightly different name (thus denying me the £15,000 I was awarded against them) and went back to the previous habit of employing local people.
British people were always among the hardest working most innovative people in the world and needed no lessons from anyone about how to do a good days work.This changed for some of them when the socialists cynically built up the client state and paid them more in benefits than many people earned at work,therefore buying their votes with other peoples money.
Despite all that,imo we still have a population who for the most part are conscientious hard working people and dont need others to come and do our work while we sit on our arses,unless of course the priority is cheap labour in the short term and ignoring the very large obvious problems that brings in the longer term.
Lets not forget that it has been admitted that Liebore deliberately allowed mass immigration to "shake up the UK,and rub the rights nose in it".
Rant over.

[Varche]

Isn't this "cheap labour" a modern ill created by society.

Here is an example. You can buy a bag of carrots- 2Kg for 30p in your supermarket. Proper price should be around £1. The farmer is growing them on ridiculously low margins. Seed,fertiliser and fuel still costs more every year. The only thing he can really cut is labour costs. In a sensible society everyone would have a fair share but capitalism doesn't work like that. I guess at the end of the day if Brit farmers don't come up with cheap produce then we just buy it from abroad.

I have a good working knowledge of the olive oil business. Up until two years ago the farmers around us paid "foreigners" 40 euros(about £32) a day and they worked them into the ground for that and didn't feel guilty. Each morning there would be a group waiting outside the village bar till the landowners came out at 9.30(you can't really pick till about 10.a.m. for practical reasons) and then they picked the best looking prospects from a big pool. Some had walked 8 miles from another village that specialises in veg growing. Now there is none of that as they use Spanish workers only and still have a good choice.

[cem_devecioglu]

Isn't this "cheap labour" a modern ill created by society.

Here is an example. You can buy a bag of carrots- 2Kg for 30p in your supermarket. Proper price should be around £1. The farmer is growing them on ridiculously low margins. Seed,fertiliser and fuel still costs more every year. The only thing he can really cut is labour costs. In a sensible society everyone would have a fair share but capitalism doesn't work like that. I guess at the end of the day if Brit farmers don't come up with cheap produce then we just buy it from abroad.

I have a good working knowledge of the olive oil business. Up until two years ago the farmers around us paid "foreigners" 40 euros(about £32) a day and they worked them into the ground for that and didn't feel guilty. Each morning there would be a group waiting outside the village bar till the landowners came out at 9.30(you can't really pick till about 10.a.m. for practical reasons) and then they picked the best looking prospects from a big pool. Some had walked 8 miles from another village that specialises in veg growing. Now there is none of that as they use Spanish workers only and still have a good choice.

 
 
 
 
 while farmers, workers hardly put something on their table some people swim in money..
 
 
in Turkey, farmers (say tomato) hardly sell at a price of 20p , we can buy at a price of 1.5-2£.. this the famous capitalism..
 
where there is profit dont expect any moral values..
 
 
 
 

[Sir Tigger KC]

During my trucking days the company I worked for mostly did trunking runs for the supermarkets so I was regularly in and out of the 'Big 4' supermarket's distribution centres.  One that always springs to mind in conversations like this is a Sainsbury's RDC at Emersons Green on the outskirts of Bristol.

Before 2004 the vast majority of the workers were local, from Bristol and the surrounding areas.  I got to know a few of the lads who worked there and there always seemed to be a sense of camaraderie between them, probably because the work was pretty dull but the wages were good and if you stuck at it there were good opportunities for advancement to be had. 

After 2004 the place became very different.  Many of the 'old faces' disappeared and more and more Eastern Europeans were working there.  I reckon that within a year the vast majority of the workforce were from Eastern Europe and they were getting paid minimum wage!!  Chatting to a Polish lad one day I asked him how he could afford to live on the low wages and he told me that he shared a terraced house with 12 other Polish lads, his car was Polish (so his tax and insurance was peanuts) and he reckoned that within 2 or 3 years he would have saved enough to go home and start a business or buy a house! 

At all of the supermarkets distribution centres the story was the same.  None of these places were new facilities, and had been operating before 2004 and the influx of Eastern Europeans.  We seemed to manage OK without them, so this argument that we need the workers to do the jobs that lazy Brits won't just dosn't  stack up with me!!    and just for a bit of balance I don't blame the Poles or other Eastern Europeans for coming here, after all if you could earn 10x as much in France there'd be a stampede for the boats!!    In fact I've a couple of mates who did very well in the late '80's, early '90's grafting in Germany! Auf Wiedershen Pet style!! 

[Rods2]

Mass migration by Labour was for two reasons:

1. The majority of immigrants from third-world countries will vote Labour and the senior Labour luvies hate the British people, our culture and history and this was the most effective way to destroy it. Also all immigrants from EU countries are pro-EU for obvious reasons, and for those outside, they don't care. Tony BLair also personally benefitted from this and the human rights act that he signed up to, though his wife's increased earnings.

2. It suited the Labour government to drive down wage costs and to stop UK workers from working, so they then became clients of the state. The natural Tory voters them would then not vote for the beastly Tories who would cut their benefits. Also by driving down industry costs, inflation would stay low, interest rates low (too low, which caused the housing bubble), so they could raise taxes without people feeling too badly off and borrow lots of money to make them feel even better. Deregulated the banks and allowed them to do whatever they liked as long as they made huge profits, so Labour got more tax money to spend. This is how they managed to get 3 terms in office and almost a fourth term.

Labour also gerrymandered the boundaries for MPs to their advantage, which the LibDems are currently trying to stop being corrected, by renegading over their agreement, over the referendum they got over the voting system in return for supporting this. They are putting party over ethics and they are openly courting Labour-Lib Government after the next election.

Labour has always been much more mercenary about changing things while in power to their advantage to stay in power and every Labour Government from the 1920's onwards has ALWAYS run out of other people's money. This is when their merry-go-round has stopped and they have been voted out, for the Tories to pick up the mess, we go through years of pain and as soon as they have fixed the problems, we have another 3 labour terms to start the cycle all over again.

Most Bulgarians and Romanians (and Ukrainians) are already here, via Poland, where if you worked for 2 years there (especially as a low paid agricultural worker), you can / could (not sure if this easy entry route still exists) get Polish nationality which opened the whole of the EU to you. This is what happened in large numbers, due to Polish mass migration to the UK, so they had a labour shortage. There will be a small influx from those countries and they may well be many who will be here for easy pickings, rather than the hard work Polish route.

Reading the comments section on the DT page is very interesting on why many people professional people have left or are emigrating from the UK.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/9667069/The-new-brain-drain-and-who-can-blame-them.html

[cem_devecioglu]

   Rods if you write more I will also blame UK Labor party for what happened in Turkey 

[Rods2]

  Rods if you write more I will also blame UK Labor party for what happened in Turkey 

We will happily let them take the blame for Turkey, by exporting them to you, can have them, we will chuck in the LibDems for free and much of the Conservative party for good measure, anytime you want. 

Just make sure you can afford to keep them at the standards of living they aspire to. They all need big salaries, mistresses secretaries, chaffeurs and even bigger expense accounts for the their basic necessities in life, like subsidized holiday and buy-to-let houses, pond duck houses to porn DVDs. 

[Kurtz]

Invasion is the answer. Deal with it!

[Johnny English]

Please consider that the state interetsts and policy often not the same of the person's, so can be occurred that individuals lost a bit but the state gets extraordinary benefit. I'm absolutely not a supporter of immigration but why do we not mention immigrants who were/can be really beneficial for the new home of themselves? I mean we can often hear or read on the news that for example the American Mr Chinese-sound Name and Mr Spanish-sound Name shared got the actual Nobel prize for researches in point of something. Well, they are often first generation immigrants..and at the end please let me to mention some Hun "immigrants" on here who took huge glory for theirs new home.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Gabor              -       Holography

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_von_Neumann      -       Binary systems and the first computer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zsef_Galamb   -       Carburettor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Teller              -       Nuclear developments

[Entwood]

Ah Johnny .. you forget about the British "working class" predilection for only seeing the things they want to see, and ignoring the real world, superbly backed by the Tabloid Press who print banner headlines that bear little resemblance to the truth ....

"Immigration is bad .. it robs UK people of jobs" ...... so lets take a look ...

NHS - Would be unable to cope if it was not for immigrant doctors/nurses ... nicely ignored, especially when you need one.

Engineers - UK universities produce less then 20% of the engineering/science graduates we need , due to the high number of underwater basket weaving courses that are availble, neatly ignored when you need something designed and built properly.

"MR UK" loves a good curry, and of course, every curry house is run/manned/cheffed by an English man isn't it ... again .. neatly ignored on a Saturday night.

If "Mr UK" got of his arse, got some proper qualificatons, and did a days work for a days pay(rather than a days work for a weeks pay plus what you can nick), then the immigrants would not be able to get jobs and would not come ....

[Johnny English]

Ah Johnny .. you forget about the British "working class" predilection for only seeing the things they want to see, and ignoring the real world, superbly backed by the Tabloid Press who print banner headlines that bear little resemblance to the truth ....

"Immigration is bad .. it robs UK people of jobs" ...... so lets take a look ...

NHS - Would be unable to cope if it was not for immigrant doctors/nurses ... nicely ignored, especially when you need one.

Engineers - UK universities produce less then 20% of the engineering/science graduates we need , due to the high number of underwater basket weaving courses that are availble, neatly ignored when you need something designed and built properly.

"MR UK" loves a good curry, and of course, every curry house is run/manned/cheffed by an English man isn't it ... again .. neatly ignored on a Saturday night.

If "Mr UK" got of his arse, got some proper qualificatons, and did a days work for a days pay(rather than a days work for a weeks pay plus what you can nick), then the immigrants would not be able to get jobs and would not come ....

        yes if you thought better would see that if there is any kind of vaccum it will be filled up soon from either close or far environment...believe or not Hungary also suffers from immigration namely the other side of this that we call as "brain sucking" when young talents leave for the USA or GB and I could continue to occupy positions, which are empties there. Most of Hun guys I know and work over there are have graduate, college or university but working as leaflet spreader or cleaneing staff at a hotel...

[Kevin Wood]

Engineers - UK universities produce less then 20% of the engineering/science graduates we need , due to the high number of underwater basket weaving courses that are availble, neatly ignored when you need something designed and built properly.

They have an important role to play, though, based on my experience of University. They provide a challenge for the engineering students, who, despite having about 30 hours a week more lectures to attend, still manage to do a better job of the core student activities of drinking and smoking pot, and also manage a bath occasionally.

[cem_devecioglu]

Engineers - UK universities produce less then 20% of the engineering/science graduates we need , due to the high number of underwater basket weaving courses that are availble, neatly ignored when you need something designed and built properly.

They have an important role to play, though, based on my experience of University. They provide a challenge for the engineering students, who, despite having about 30 hours a week more lectures to attend, still manage to do a better job of the core student activities of drinking and smoking pot, and also manage a bath occasionally.

normally 40 but 50 - 60 hours if you have probation..    been there done that..
 
I still dont understand how I finished engineering with few hours of work in university
 
probably from the back door