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[Terbs]

Never mind Thatcher, I wish this thread was dead.

Yeah totally agree.

Whatever you feel, for or against, its part of our history now. The past is the past, no use trying to relive it. Lets think of the future and whats happening now in this country

[Sir Tigger KC]

People tend to say National Socialism and the Nazis with the right's equivalent to Communism, but they are totally wrong as they are both left wing who believe in the state controlling all aspects of peoples lives and all means of production also belonging to the state. Hitler nationalised many businesses and it was only the war that stopped him from nationalizing all of Germany's industries.

Politically the communists and Nazis hated each other, but Stalin and Hitler with both from the same political, utterly ruthless mould and you could not get a fag paper between their political ideologies. They were both vile and evil.

.

No, sorry Rods2, but Hitler and the Nazis were definitely right wing. National Socialism is not socialist. Hitler led a totalitarian, military, state where no one but him had true status, giving power to his gang of thugs to ensure the people fell in line or were eradicated, and the Nationalist State ruled all with a rod of iron.

Stalin's USSR was intended to be socialist in the image of Lenin and the 1917 uprising,  but he made it an authoritarian state where every one was equal, but Stalin was the absolute Leader and made lesser citizens pay for mistakes and opposition.

 

Sounds pretty much the same to me Lizzie, just put slightly differently..... 

[Nickbat]

People tend to say National Socialism and the Nazis with the right's equivalent to Communism, but they are totally wrong as they are both left wing who believe in the state controlling all aspects of peoples lives and all means of production also belonging to the state. Hitler nationalised many businesses and it was only the war that stopped him from nationalizing all of Germany's industries.

Politically the communists and Nazis hated each other, but Stalin and Hitler with both from the same political, utterly ruthless mould and you could not get a fag paper between their political ideologies. They were both vile and evil.

.

No, sorry Rods2, but Hitler and the Nazis were definitely right wing. National Socialism is not socialist. Hitler led a totalitarian, military, state where no one but him had true status, giving power to his gang of thugs to ensure the people fell in line or were eradicated, and the Nationalist State ruled all with a rod of iron.

Stalin's USSR was intended to be socialist in the image of Lenin and the 1917 uprising,  but he made it an authoritarian state where every one was equal, but Stalin was the absolute Leader and made lesser citizens pay for mistakes and opposition.

 

The fact that your use the description "totalitarian" to describe Hitler and "authoritarian" to describe Stalin shows there's not a gnat's difference between them. My view is shared (more eloquently) by a writer here:

Fascism is an amorphous ideology mobilizing an entire nation (Mussolini, Franco and Peron) or race (Hitler) for a common purpose. Leaders of industry, science, education, the arts and politics combine to shepherd society in an all encompassing quest. Hitler’s premise was a pure Aryan Germany capable of dominating Europe.

While he feinted right, Hitler and Stalin were natural bedfellows. Hitler mimicked Lenin’s path to totalitarian tyranny, parlaying crises into power. Nazis despised Marxists not over ideology, but because they had betrayed Germany in World War I and Nazis found it unconscionable that German communists yielded fealty to Slavs in Moscow.

The National Socialist German Workers Party staged elaborate marches with uniformed workers calling one another “comrade” while toting tools the way soldiers shoulder rifles. The bright red Nazi flag symbolized socialism in a “classless, casteless” Germany (white represents Aryanism). Fascist central planning was not egalitarian, but it divvied up economic rewards very similarly to communism: party membership and partnering with the state.

From a 2011 Article in Forbes magazine

http://www.forbes.com/sites/billflax/2011/09/01/obama-hitler-and-exploding-the-biggest-lie-in-history/

[phill osey]

RIP Maggie

I was just saying to Phil today... what a combination  if we had  Queen Victoria and Maggie in power at the same time

Lee

[cem_devecioglu]

in some members eyes we must be Russian to comment on Stalin and German to comment on Hitler..
 
Again I'll break this rule.. sorry.. and also this copy paste rules.. 
 
because in order to comment on them we need to read their past lifes..
 
"As a child, Ioseb ( Iosif Vissarionovich Stalin) was plagued with numerous health issues. ....................................... His face was left permanently scarred after he contracted smallpox at the age of 7. Later, at age 12, he injured his left arm in an accident involving a horse-drawn carriage, rendering it shorter and stiffer than its counterpart. During the first several years of his life, Stalin and his mother were subjected to severe physical abuse at the hands of his father (cobbler) , who was severely alcoholic. When Geladze enrolled Ioseb into an Orthodox priesthood school against her husband's wishes, Jughashvili went on a public rampage. He was banished from Gori for assaulting its police chief. He subsequently moved to Tiflis (Tbilisi), leaving his family behind"
 
this is from wikipedia.. and I think this answers most of the why questions ..
 
In my opinion Stalin was a highest degree ignorant,coward and betrayer..
 
Before anything he betrayed the Russian revolution and betrayed all friends and his citizens.. And has nothing to do with socialism imo.. he was only at the correct place at the correct time and he benefited every chance..
 
his only success was collectivisation but completely failed in the army management.. sacked most of his succesful generals with fear and brought the Russian army to its knees just before the war..  And lacking complete foresight .. The only common point with Hitler is both are extremely stubborn..
 
and Adolf Hitler:
 
"Hitler became fixated on warfare after finding a picture book about the Franco-Prussian War among his father's belongings.
The move to Hafeld coincided with the onset of intense father-son conflicts caused by Hitler's refusal to conform to the strict discipline of his school. Alois Hitler's farming efforts at Hafeld ended in failure, and in 1897 the family moved to Lambach. The eight-year-old Hitler took singing lessons, sang in the church choir, and even considered becoming a priest. In 1898 the family returned permanently to Leonding. The death of his younger brother, Edmund, from measles on 2 February 1900 deeply affected Hitler. He changed from being confident and outgoing and an excellent student, to a morose, detached, and sullen boy who constantly fought with his father and teachers.^"
 
" Ignoring his son's desire to attend a classical high school and become an artist, in September 1900 Alois sent Hitler to the Realschule in Linz. (This was the same high school that Adolf Eichmann would attend some 17 years later.) Hitler rebelled against this decision, and in Mein Kampf revealed that he did poorly in school, hoping that once his father saw "what little progress I was making at the technical school he would let me devote myself to my dream"
 
"From 1905, Hitler lived a bohemian life in Vienna, financed by orphan's benefits and support from his mother. He worked as a casual labourer and eventually as a painter, selling watercolours. The Academy of Fine Arts Vienna rejected him twice, in 1907 and 1908, because of his "unfitness for painting". The director recommended that Hitler study architecture, but he lacked the academic credentials. On 21 December 1907, his mother died aged 47. After the Academy's second rejection, Hitler ran out of money. In 1909 he lived in a homeless shelter, and by 1910, he had settled into a house for poor working men on Meldemannstraße. At the time Hitler lived there, Vienna was a hotbed of religious prejudice and racism. Fears of being overrun by immigrants from the East were widespread, and the populist mayor, Karl Lueger, exploited the rhetoric of virulent antisemitism for political effect. Georg Schönerer's pan-Germanic antisemitism had a strong following in the Mariahilf district, where Hitler lived
 

[cem_devecioglu]

[continued}
Hitler read local newspapers, such as the Deutsches Volksblatt, that fanned prejudice and played on Christian fears of being swamped by an influx of eastern Jews"
 
"At the outbreak of World War I, Hitler was a resident of Munich and volunteered to serve in the Bavarian Army as an Austrian citizen. Posted to the Bavarian Reserve Infantry Regiment 16 (1st Company of the List Regiment), he served as a dispatch runner on the Western Front in France and Belgium, spending nearly half his time well behind the front lines. He was present at the First Battle of Ypres, the Battle of the Somme, the Battle of Arras, and the Battle of Passchendaele, and was wounded at the Somme.
 
He was decorated for bravery, receiving the Iron Cross, Second Class, in 1914. Recommended by Hugo Gutmann, he received the Iron Cross, First Class, on 4 August 1918, a decoration rarely awarded to one of Hitler's rank (Gefreiter). Hitler's post at regimental headquarters, providing frequent interactions with senior officers, may have helped him receive this decoration. Though his rewarded actions may have been courageous, they were probably not highly exceptional. He also received the Black Wound Badge on 18 May 1918.
..................................... During the Battle of the Somme in October 1916, he was wounded either in the groin area or the left thigh by a shell that had exploded in the dispatch runners' dugout. Hitler spent almost two months in the Red Cross hospital at Beelitz, returning to his regiment on 5 March 1917. On 15 October 1918, he was temporarily blinded by a mustard gas attack and was hospitalised in Pasewalk. While there, Hitler learnt of Germany's defeat, and—by his own account—on receiving this news, he suffered a second bout of blindness."
 
"Having no formal education and career prospects, he tried to remain in the army for as long as possible. In July 1919 he was appointed Verbindungsmann (intelligence agent) of an Aufklärungskommando (reconnaissance commando) of the Reichswehr,"
 
". In 1923, he attempted a coup d'état in Munich, known as the Beer Hall Putsch. The failed coup resulted in Hitler's imprisonment, during which time he wrote his memoir, Mein Kampf (My Struggle). After his release in 1924, Hitler gained popular support by attacking the Treaty of Versailles and promoting Pan-Germanism, antisemitism, and anti-communism with charismatic oratory and Nazi propaganda. After his appointment as chancellor in 1933, he transformed the Weimar Republic into the Third Reich, a single-party dictatorship based on the totalitarian and autocratic ideology of Nazism."
 
after reading those lines I can conclude that he has courage and ambition  so much that he and his nation cant handle..but he has foresight (some members may oppose to that but remember he nearly fight with whole world powers-although a bit contradictory), more army knowledge (than Stalin) and he is a patriot.. and a nutter..
 

and as a conclusion, I think Hitler was far more succesfull than Stalin.. if Germanies natural sources + man power was enough he could beat Russians..
 
from Lizzie,

but Hitler and the Nazis were definitely right wing. National Socialism is not socialist. Hitler led a totalitarian, military, state where no one but him had true status, giving power to his gang of thugs to ensure the people fell in line or were eradicated, and the Nationalist State ruled all with a rod of iron.

Stalin's USSR was intended to be socialist in the image of Lenin and the 1917 uprising,  but he made it an authoritarian state
 

And I agree with that..

[Nickbat]

RIP Maggie

I was just saying to Phil today... what a combination  if we had  Queen Victoria and Maggie in power at the same time

Lee

Indeed. 

I have to say that I read this blog (one of my favourites) and thought it was one of the most well-reasoned and thoughtful pieces I have seen in the past few days:

http://autonomousmind.wordpress.com/2013/04/10/margaret-thatcher-rip/

An excellent post, IMHO. 

[dbdb]

Its quite traditional for parliament to be recalled when a former PM dies.

apparently not see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22123307

[dbdb]

You dont have to sell very many copies to get to number one these days.

I've just been told this used to be the case but the advent of itunes has revived singles and last year more singles were sold than ever before. Ding Dong the Witch is Dead is top of UK itunes but if anyone likes the song there is a better version by Aretha Franklin.

Both cracking songs am playing the Franklin one now at full volume.

[albitz]

Its quite traditional for parliament to be recalled when a former PM dies.

apparently not see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22123307

Your right.I heard someone say it on TV and took it at face value without checking.Should have known better.

[albitz]

You dont have to sell very many copies to get to number one these days.

I've just been told this used to be the case but the advent of itunes has revived singles and last year more singles were sold than ever before. Ding Dong the Witch is Dead is top of UK itunes but if anyone likes the song there is a better version by Aretha Franklin.

Both cracking songs am playing the Franklin one now at full volume.

As of yesterday it had sold 29,000 copies,according to SKY news.Dont think its going to rival Do they know its Christmas.
Presumably you and people like you dont give a toss about the effect this type of thing might have on her grieving family ?

[alfie]

Just heard what I think is the best joke,

 Rod Stewart has been asked to sing Wake up Maggie at the funeral service.

[Sir Tigger KC]

You dont have to sell very many copies to get to number one these days.

I've just been told this used to be the case but the advent of itunes has revived singles and last year more singles were sold than ever before. Ding Dong the Witch is Dead is top of UK itunes but if anyone likes the song there is a better version by Aretha Franklin.

Both cracking songs am playing the Franklin one now at full volume.

As of yesterday it had sold 29,000 copies,according to SKY news.Dont think its going to rival Do they know its Christmas.
Presumably you and people like you dont give a toss about the effect this type of thing might have on her grieving family ?

..... and now we know there are at least 29,000 complete and utter morons in this country!! 

[albitz]

Yep, we have a dose of the Trots(kyites).

[cleggy]

Just heard what I think is the best joke,

 Rod Stewart has been asked to sing Wake up Maggie at the funeral service.

Check post 226