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Author Topic: Syria  (Read 17243 times)

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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Syria
« Reply #15 on: 25 August 2013, 10:19:00 »

Assad may be gambling on the fact that the public in the U.S. / U.K. and the west in general are in no mood for their countries to get involved in yet another long messy war in the middle east ?  :-\


nope.. he is not mad .. and enough clever not to go into more trouble..
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: Syria
« Reply #16 on: 25 August 2013, 12:13:06 »

I think their are two possibilities here. Al Qaeda are behind the chemical attack to try and create a response against Assad or even better in their eyes an East-West conflict, which they would hope to benefit from. The alternative is where Assad has had no action taken against him in the past from now confirmed gas attacks (but again it could be either side) and he has deliberately provoked a response from the west and if it is not forthcoming he will use it as a green light for a much bigger use of chemical weapons to bring the war to a swift conclusion.

Which of these is it, I don't know, but Assad and Al Qaeda both don't care how many people are killed and how much collateral damage is caused as long as it furthers their aims and stranglehold on Syria. Personally, I think the measured response from Obuma at this time is the right one of no action until it is clarified who is responsible. If it is Assad then I think B2 deep penetration bombing attacks on some of his command structure bunkers would be the correct response, at the same time letting him know that their is one with his name and bunker location on it if he uses them again. If it is Al Qaeda then the use of drones and decapitation attacks on their leaders is the right response. USAF have plenty of experience with this tactic in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen.

Sadly, like so often in wars, innocent civilians are dragged into the conflict and are maimed and killed.  :'(

All agreed there Rods2 :y

Indeed, Assad would not be the first dictator to be a gambler, a chancer, who gambles and takes military action to see what the response will be.  No response, and yes he will do more........a lot more!

We joked about the build up of a Royal Navy fleet (task force?) going to Gibraltar in response to Spain's strange ways recently, but now perhaps we can see what the real, very serious, objective was. ;)

In this World there will always be big risks, especially when democratic countries of the west face up to dictators in the East.  Can we stand by though and let mass killings take place, regardless of who causes such acts in the 21st century?  Don't we have a duty to fellow mankind to take action?  Remember also that we have thousands of British Syrians living in our country who are pleading for some form of action to stop these outrages.  Of course, the West will be damned if we do, and damned if we don't.  But such is life. :( :(   
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biggriffin

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Re: Syria
« Reply #17 on: 25 August 2013, 12:20:30 »

Its not our war, dosnt concern us, leave it and let the Arabs sort it out,
Also who is to say that asssad is the baddy, seems that when the west intervene and remove the person in charge it gets worse.
 
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Nickbat

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Re: Syria
« Reply #18 on: 25 August 2013, 16:26:31 »

Its not our war, dosnt concern us, leave it and let the Arabs sort it out,
Also who is to say that asssad is the baddy, seems that when the west intervene and remove the person in charge it gets worse.

Indeed. I wouldn't be surprised if more people have died Post-Arab Spring than in the decade before. Both Egypt and Iraq are far more dangerous for the average citizen than before the removal of the dictators. ::)

We are not the world's policeman and for every Syrian that would like us and the US to interven militarily there is one who would not want us anywhere near.
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Syria
« Reply #19 on: 25 August 2013, 17:50:31 »

Its not our war, dosnt concern us, leave it and let the Arabs sort it out,
Also who is to say that asssad is the baddy, seems that when the west intervene and remove the person in charge it gets worse.

Indeed. I wouldn't be surprised if more people have died Post-Arab Spring than in the decade before. Both Egypt and Iraq are far more dangerous for the average citizen than before the removal of the dictators. ::)

We are not the world's policeman and for every Syrian that would like us and the US to interven militarily there is one who would not want us anywhere near.

bang on Nickbat.. and all agreed :y :y :y
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Rods2

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Re: Syria
« Reply #20 on: 25 August 2013, 20:38:50 »

I think their are two possibilities here. Al Qaeda are behind the chemical attack to try and create a response against Assad or even better in their eyes an East-West conflict, which they would hope to benefit from. The alternative is where Assad has had no action taken against him in the past from now confirmed gas attacks (but again it could be either side) and he has deliberately provoked a response from the west and if it is not forthcoming he will use it as a green light for a much bigger use of chemical weapons to bring the war to a swift conclusion.

Which of these is it, I don't know, but Assad and Al Qaeda both don't care how many people are killed and how much collateral damage is caused as long as it furthers their aims and stranglehold on Syria. Personally, I think the measured response from Obuma at this time is the right one of no action until it is clarified who is responsible. If it is Assad then I think B2 deep penetration bombing attacks on some of his command structure bunkers would be the correct response, at the same time letting him know that their is one with his name and bunker location on it if he uses them again. If it is Al Qaeda then the use of drones and decapitation attacks on their leaders is the right response. USAF have plenty of experience with this tactic in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen.

Sadly, like so often in wars, innocent civilians are dragged into the conflict and are maimed and killed.  :'(

All agreed there Rods2 :y

Indeed, Assad would not be the first dictator to be a gambler, a chancer, who gambles and takes military action to see what the response will be.  No response, and yes he will do more........a lot more!

We joked about the build up of a Royal Navy fleet (task force?) going to Gibraltar in response to Spain's strange ways recently, but now perhaps we can see what the real, very serious, objective was. ;)

In this World there will always be big risks, especially when democratic countries of the west face up to dictators in the East.  Can we stand by though and let mass killings take place, regardless of who causes such acts in the 21st century?  Don't we have a duty to fellow mankind to take action?  Remember also that we have thousands of British Syrians living in our country who are pleading for some form of action to stop these outrages.  Of course, the West will be damned if we do, and damned if we don't.  But such is life. :( :(

Hitler comes to mind of gamblers that were not stopped. He gambled on the remilitarization of the Rhineland would bring no response from France and Britain even though it was a blatant violation of the Treaty of Versailles. Hitler took this as a green light for annexing Austria and Czechoslovakia and then finally the step too far of Poland.

I think there were four objectives for the task force, a show of force in Gibraltar, a task force near Egypt in case UK nationals need to be evacuated, Syria and our anti-piracy commitments on the horn of Africa.

In the 19th and the first half of the 20th century the UK was the world's policeman, since then it has been the Americans and I think there is a moral duty to enforce the rules banning the use of chemical and biological weapons. I think this can be done from the air as I don't want to see US or UK troops on the ground there. In the last 15 years the UK has been involved in too many wars of dubious origin.
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Nickbat

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Re: Syria
« Reply #21 on: 25 August 2013, 20:56:22 »

I think there is a moral duty to enforce the rules banning the use of chemical and biological weapons. I think this can be done from the air as I don't want to see US or UK troops on the ground there. In the last 15 years the UK has been involved in too many wars of dubious origin.

You can't enforce the rules until you know who broke them. Seems to me Camoron and Hague have already made up their mind, based on no factual evidence.  >:( >:(
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Rods2

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Re: Syria
« Reply #22 on: 25 August 2013, 21:09:50 »

I think there is a moral duty to enforce the rules banning the use of chemical and biological weapons. I think this can be done from the air as I don't want to see US or UK troops on the ground there. In the last 15 years the UK has been involved in too many wars of dubious origin.

You can't enforce the rules until you know who broke them. Seems to me Camoron and Hague have already made up their mind, based on no factual evidence.  >:( >:(

I agree, the Syrians have now given permission for UN to visit area, but both sides have had 5 days to fabricate and hide evidence, so I'm not sure they will find out anyway.  :(

I'm keeping an open mind until it can be conclusively proven who the guilty parties are.
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Syria
« Reply #23 on: 25 August 2013, 21:54:45 »

I think there is a moral duty to enforce the rules banning the use of chemical and biological weapons. I think this can be done from the air as I don't want to see US or UK troops on the ground there. In the last 15 years the UK has been involved in too many wars of dubious origin.

You can't enforce the rules until you know who broke them. Seems to me Camoron and Hague have already made up their mind, based on no factual evidence.  >:( >:(

Nick , I'm afraid they dont need evidence.. they just gave one to the masses to be busy :(
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Nickbat

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Re: Syria
« Reply #24 on: 26 August 2013, 13:03:07 »

The Middle East explained in one concise letter:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/the-middle-east-explained-in-one-excellent-letter-to-the-edi

Exactly. :y

I also see that Cameron and Hague are getting generally slated in most of the comments I have read today. Quite rightly so.  >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Lizzie_Zoom

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Re: Syria
« Reply #25 on: 26 August 2013, 13:25:09 »



Which of these is it, I don't know, but Assad and Al Qaeda both don't care how many people are killed and how much collateral damage is caused as long as it furthers their aims and stranglehold on Syria. Personally, I think the measured response from Obuma at this time is the right one of no action until it is clarified who is responsible. If it is Assad then I think B2 deep penetration bombing attacks on some of his command structure bunkers would be the correct response, at the same time letting him know that their is one with his name and bunker location on it if he uses them again. If it is Al Qaeda then the use of drones and decapitation attacks on their leaders is the right response. USAF have plenty of experience with this tactic in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen.

Sadly, like so often in wars, innocent civilians are dragged into the conflict and are maimed and killed.  :'(

All agreed there Rods2 :y

Indeed, Assad would not be the first dictator to be a gambler, a chancer, who gambles and takes military action to see what the response will be.  No response, and yes he will do more........a lot more!

We joked about the build up of a Royal Navy fleet (task force?) going to Gibraltar in response to Spain's strange ways recently, but now perhaps we can see what the real, very serious, objective was. ;)

In this World there will always be big risks, especially when democratic countries of the west face up to dictators in the East.  Can we stand by though and let mass killings take place, regardless of who causes such acts in the 21st century?  Don't we have a duty to fellow mankind to take action?  Remember also that we have thousands of British Syrians living in our country who are pleading for some form of action to stop these outrages.  Of course, the West will be damned if we do, and damned if we don't.  But such is life. :( :(

Hitler comes to mind of gamblers that were not stopped. He gambled on the remilitarization of the Rhineland would bring no response from France and Britain even though it was a blatant violation of the Treaty of Versailles. Hitler took this as a green light for annexing Austria and Czechoslovakia and then finally the step too far of Poland.

I think there were four objectives for the task force, a show of force in Gibraltar, a task force near Egypt in case UK nationals need to be evacuated, Syria and our anti-piracy commitments on the horn of Africa.

In the 19th and the first half of the 20th century the UK was the world's policeman, since then it has been the Americans and I think there is a moral duty to enforce the rules banning the use of chemical and biological weapons. I think this can be done from the air as I don't want to see US or UK troops on the ground there. In the last 15 years the UK has been involved in too many wars of dubious origin.

Not surprisingly Rods2 you came to the main dictator I was eluding to, although there have been others! :D :D :D :D :y

However, I, and I am sure you, are not suggesting we are dealing with someone like Hitler with true international inspirations for power.  But I am certainly warning that we cannot, nor must not, allow some two bit dictator to use internationally banned weapons against their own people without justice being exerted on them.

International Law however is toothless (a statement that get me into a deep discussion at uni with a internationally respected  Professor who thinks differently!) and in my humble opinion MUST be enforced by international partners under the UN banner.  But it takes the one superpower, the USA, and others like Britain with a military capacity to back up the former, to "make the aggressor an offer they cannot refuse".  That is what has to be done.  It is not perfect; never will be, and it carries risks.  But the onus is on the great powers to enforce discipline on the minor power, like the parent does with a child. If they do not then it teaches Assad, and other wannabe dictators hungry for power at any cost, that such action as releasing chemical weapons on civilians, let alone mankind generally, will go unpunished and they can go on doing this, or worse, without fear of retaliation.

Going back to Hitler; yes, if only Britain had had the military power to react to the invasion of Czechoslovakia by his forces, then history could have been very different. That is the lesson the World has learnt. You cannot allow a political gambler to get away with atrocities against mankind.  In a minor way Maggie Thatcher made sure of that over the Falklands. In a major way, the USA's stance during the Cold War with the USSR ensured full scale war never happened due to both sides understanding what would be the penalty for entering into such a conflict.

This is what Assad must be taught.  He cannot get away with it, no more than any other power hungry menace.

Was Assad responsible for the gas attack? I believe now there are enough witnesses on the ground, including operatives from Britain, USA and other countries, who are convinced it was.  Assad is the one with heavy military hardware.  He is the one who is known to have been bombarding his own populations with heavy shells. He is the head of the country, and must be made to pay.  The World must not allow him to get away with these acts by blaming weaker opponents, like Hitler blamed the Jews for the firing of the Reichstag!
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cem_devecioglu

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Re: Syria
« Reply #26 on: 26 August 2013, 13:51:39 »


 
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Gaffers

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Re: Syria
« Reply #27 on: 26 August 2013, 14:18:01 »

I think there were four objectives for the task force, a show of force in Gibraltar, a task force near Egypt in case UK nationals need to be evacuated, Syria and our anti-piracy commitments on the horn of Africa.

BEEEEEEEEEEEEEP!!

Thank you for calling the MOD, the Head Office of the UK's Armed Forces.  We are sorry that no one is available to take your call at the moment, your call is important to us and we will be with you once we have finished all previous calls with the talking clock.

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......press 1 to speak to Cpl Jones, Head of the 8 strong British Army.

......press 2 to speak to SAC Smith and his 2 man remote controlled plane team, AKA the RAF.


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Nickbat

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Re: Syria
« Reply #28 on: 26 August 2013, 16:01:57 »


This is what Assad must be taught.  He cannot get away with it, no more than any other power hungry menace.

Was Assad responsible for the gas attack? I believe now there are enough witnesses on the ground, including operatives from Britain, USA and other countries, who are convinced want you to think it was.  Assad is the one with heavy military hardware.  He is the one who is known to have been bombarding his own populations with heavy shells. He is the head of the country, and must be made to pay.  The World must not allow him to get away with these acts by blaming weaker opponents, like Hitler blamed the Jews for the firing of the Reichstag!

Fixed that for you, Lizzie. ;)

Seriously, though, there is no hard evidence to point the finger at either side. Therefore, we MUST stay out of it.  >:(
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Re: Syria
« Reply #29 on: 26 August 2013, 16:49:43 »


 
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Great post. Thanks.

The West will of course do whatever they feel will be the best for the West. Sadly we have seen that more than once. Have they for example decided what to do about Egypt and the huge(military) aid?  I just hope that they don't botch it (yet again)
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