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[cleggy]

I really don't give a monkeys what the Arab states do to one another , just so long as we aren't involved, and at last we seem to be keeping our noses out.

We can pick up the pieces when it's all over

[cem_devecioglu]

there is a rule for wars
 
always ordinary citizens pays the price with their blood and the ruling elite harvest the income

[Rods2]

This article by Max Hastings in the DM I think sums up UK citizens feelings and military and political realities of the UK's standing in the world.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2407552/Syria-vote-A-disaster-No-high-time-Britain-stopped-Uncle-Sams-poodle.html

Our armed forces have been cut and cut since John Major's peace dividend with the collapse of the Iron Curtain and further and further by all subsequent governments, while the social security, NHS and teaching budgets has soured and the later two are ring fenced by this Government, who see increasing overseas aid and subsidising useless windmills as a higher priority than protecting us and our interests with a strong military. The £12bn and ever increasing annual overseas aid budget would IMHO be much better spent on increasing our military budget.

The reality is that you can't continually eviscerate your armed force and still expect to carry a big stick on the world's stage. These days all we have is a twig to threaten a country's leadership with to keep them in order.  Hence us running to our big brother the EU to sort out the Gibraltar border problems where we are too weak to protect ourselves from their bullying. Personally with Gibraltar I would retaliate by subjecting all aircraft and ships going to and coming from Spain to the same sort of delays that way British tourists would soon get the message it would be better to holiday elsewhere, which is the last thing a deeply in trouble Spanish economy needs. 

[cleggy]

This article by Max Hastings in the DM I think sums up UK citizens feelings and military and political realities of the UK's standing in the world.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2407552/Syria-vote-A-disaster-No-high-time-Britain-stopped-Uncle-Sams-poodle.html

Our armed forces have been cut and cut since John Major's peace dividend with the collapse of the Iron Curtain and further and further by all subsequent governments, while the social security, NHS and teaching budgets has soured and the later two are ring fenced by this Government, who see increasing overseas aid and subsidising useless windmills as a higher priority than protecting us and our interests with a strong military. The £12bn and ever increasing annual overseas aid budget would IMHO be much better spent on increasing our military budget.

The reality is that you can't continually eviscerate your armed force and still expect to carry a big stick on the world's stage. These days all we have is a twig to threaten a country's leadership with to keep them in order.  Hence us running to our big brother the EU to sort out the Gibraltar border problems where we are too weak to protect ourselves from their bullying. Personally with Gibraltar I would retaliate by subjecting all aircraft and ships going to and coming from Spain to the same sort of delays that way British tourists would soon get the message it would be better to holiday elsewhere, which is the last thing a deeply in trouble Spanish economy needs. 

Now that is something I agree with

[Sir Tigger KC]

John Kerry the US Secretary of State was telling the world yesterday that the US government had proof that the Syrian government was responsible for the chemical weapons attack.

Today Vladimir Putin the Russian President has challenged the US to present that evidence to the United Nations.

Dosn't seem unreasonable to me! 

[Varche]

This article by Max Hastings in the DM I think sums up UK citizens feelings and military and political realities of the UK's standing in the world.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2407552/Syria-vote-A-disaster-No-high-time-Britain-stopped-Uncle-Sams-poodle.html

Our armed forces have been cut and cut since John Major's peace dividend with the collapse of the Iron Curtain and further and further by all subsequent governments, while the social security, NHS and teaching budgets has soured and the later two are ring fenced by this Government, who see increasing overseas aid and subsidising useless windmills as a higher priority than protecting us and our interests with a strong military. The £12bn and ever increasing annual overseas aid budget would IMHO be much better spent on increasing our military budget.

The reality is that you can't continually eviscerate your armed force and still expect to carry a big stick on the world's stage. These days all we have is a twig to threaten a country's leadership with to keep them in order.  Hence us running to our big brother the EU to sort out the Gibraltar border problems where we are too weak to protect ourselves from their bullying. Personally with Gibraltar I would retaliate by subjecting all aircraft and ships going to and coming from Spain to the same sort of delays that way British tourists would soon get the message it would be better to holiday elsewhere, which is the last thing a deeply in trouble Spanish economy needs. 

Crikey. I have just deleted you and Cleggy from my Christmas card and hamper list. Sorry guys.

On a happier note, Spanish tourism (from foreigners) us up but internal tourism is unsurprisingly down. I guess with so much Arab state unrest Spain looks and is a safer destination.

[cleggy]

This article by Max Hastings in the DM I think sums up UK citizens feelings and military and political realities of the UK's standing in the world.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2407552/Syria-vote-A-disaster-No-high-time-Britain-stopped-Uncle-Sams-poodle.html

Our armed forces have been cut and cut since John Major's peace dividend with the collapse of the Iron Curtain and further and further by all subsequent governments, while the social security, NHS and teaching budgets has soured and the later two are ring fenced by this Government, who see increasing overseas aid and subsidising useless windmills as a higher priority than protecting us and our interests with a strong military. The £12bn and ever increasing annual overseas aid budget would IMHO be much better spent on increasing our military budget.

The reality is that you can't continually eviscerate your armed force and still expect to carry a big stick on the world's stage. These days all we have is a twig to threaten a country's leadership with to keep them in order.  Hence us running to our big brother the EU to sort out the Gibraltar border problems where we are too weak to protect ourselves from their bullying. Personally with Gibraltar I would retaliate by subjecting all aircraft and ships going to and coming from Spain to the same sort of delays that way British tourists would soon get the message it would be better to holiday elsewhere, which is the last thing a deeply in trouble Spanish economy needs. 

Crikey. I have just deleted you and Cleggy from my Christmas card and hamper list. Sorry guys.

On a happier note, Spanish tourism (from foreigners) us up but internal tourism is unsurprisingly down. I guess with so much Arab state unrest Spain looks and is a safer destination.

In that case we could go further and bomb Tenerife 

[dbdb]

John Kerry the US Secretary of State was telling the world yesterday that the US government had proof that the Syrian government was responsible for the chemical weapons attack.

Today Vladimir Putin the Russian President has challenged the US to present that evidence to the United Nations.

Dosn't seem unreasonable to me! 

Anyone remember Colin Powell at the UN with his vial of Iraqi chemical weapons material?


Donald Rumsfeld showed charts of Osama Bin Ladin's underground military complex at Tora Bora with underground facilities that a Bond villian would be proud of.

"Russert: The Times of London did a graphic, which I want to put on the screen for you and our viewers. This is it. This is a fortress. This is a very much a complex, multi-tiered, bedrooms and offices on the top, as you can see, secret exits on the side and on the bottom, cut deep to avoid thermal detection so when our planes fly to try to determine if any human beings are in there, it's built so deeply down and embedded in the mountain and the rock it's hard to detect. And over here, valleys guarded, as you can see, by some Taliban soldiers. A ventilation system to allow people to breathe and to carry on. An arms and ammunition depot. And you can see here the exits leading into it and the entrances large enough to drive trucks and cars and even tanks. And it's own hydroelectric power to help keep lights on, even computer systems and telephone systems. It's a very sophisticated operation.


Rumsfeld: Oh, you bet. This is serious business. And there's not one of those. There are many of those. And they have been used very effectively. And I might add, Afghanistan is not the only country that has gone underground. Any number of countries have gone underground. The tunneling equipment that exists today is very powerful. It's dual use. It's available across the globe. And people have recognized the advantages of using underground protection for themselves.


A few weeks after the "Meet the Press" interview, US special forces and their Afghan allies occupied Tora Bora. They painstakingly searched Gree Khil mountain and the surrounding area. They found no underground fortress, no hydro-electric power plant, no 2000-room hotel, no ant farm, no iron doors, no ventilating shafts. The troglodyte Lair of Bin Laden turned out to be mythic"

[05omegav6]

Turned out to be a corner plot in downtown Islamabad iirc

[SandBoy]

In that case we could go further and bomb Tenerife

Just stay away from Fuerteventura until after November .....please

[cem_devecioglu]

John Kerry the US Secretary of State was telling the world yesterday that the US government had proof that the Syrian government was responsible for the chemical weapons attack.

Today Vladimir Putin the Russian President has challenged the US to present that evidence to the United Nations.

Dosn't seem unreasonable to me! 

Anyone remember Colin Powell at the UN with his vial of Iraqi chemical weapons material?


Donald Rumsfeld showed charts of Osama Bin Ladin's underground military complex at Tora Bora with underground facilities that a Bond villian would be proud of.

"Russert: The Times of London did a graphic, which I want to put on the screen for you and our viewers. This is it. This is a fortress. This is a very much a complex, multi-tiered, bedrooms and offices on the top, as you can see, secret exits on the side and on the bottom, cut deep to avoid thermal detection so when our planes fly to try to determine if any human beings are in there, it's built so deeply down and embedded in the mountain and the rock it's hard to detect. And over here, valleys guarded, as you can see, by some Taliban soldiers. A ventilation system to allow people to breathe and to carry on. An arms and ammunition depot. And you can see here the exits leading into it and the entrances large enough to drive trucks and cars and even tanks. And it's own hydroelectric power to help keep lights on, even computer systems and telephone systems. It's a very sophisticated operation.


Rumsfeld: Oh, you bet. This is serious business. And there's not one of those. There are many of those. And they have been used very effectively. And I might add, Afghanistan is not the only country that has gone underground. Any number of countries have gone underground. The tunneling equipment that exists today is very powerful. It's dual use. It's available across the globe. And people have recognized the advantages of using underground protection for themselves.


A few weeks after the "Meet the Press" interview, US special forces and their Afghan allies occupied Tora Bora. They painstakingly searched Gree Khil mountain and the surrounding area. They found no underground fortress, no hydro-electric power plant, no 2000-room hotel, no ant farm, no iron doors, no ventilating shafts. The troglodyte Lair of Bin Laden turned out to be mythic"

 

[Sir Tigger KC]

So O'Bummer is putting the issue to Congress for a debate and a vote.    I bet he's hoping like hell they vote against military action, as Parliament did. 

[MR MISTER]

So O'Bummer is putting the issue to Congress for a debate and a vote.    I bet he's hoping like hell they vote against military action, as Parliament did. 

We'll find out......in ten days.

[Nickbat]

So O'Bummer is putting the issue to Congress for a debate and a vote.    I bet he's hoping like hell they vote against military action, as Parliament did. 

Yep, that long grass is looking mighty inviting. The thought of niggling the Russians and sky-high gasoline prices may have brought on a bout of sanity. 

I note the Tories are all saying he's aping Cameron, i.e. what a clever chap Dave is. 

[cem_devecioglu]

So O'Bummer is putting the issue to Congress for a debate and a vote.    I bet he's hoping like hell they vote against military action, as Parliament did. 

Yep, that long grass is looking mighty inviting. The thought of niggling the Russians and sky-high gasoline prices may have brought on a bout of sanity.

I note the Tories are all saying he's aping Cameron, i.e. what a clever chap Dave is. 

yep.. facts of life sometimes bring you down back to earth-realities    but I'm still not sure.. we will see