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[Entwood]

That is not really an answer to any of my points, it is more an expression of hope ...... I was after something just a little more concrete .....

And there can be no concrete answer — not from the Leave side, nor the Remain side. These are uncharted waters, so looking for a definitive answer is practically impossible. The Remain side "hope and believe" that we can continue with business as usual (I doubt it), whilst the Leave side "hope and believe" that our long-term future will be brighter outside the EU.

No one can give a definitive answer about how Europe will look a couple of years down the line. NO one can give a definitive answer as regards the actions of other European countries. We can only surmise with the evidence as we see it.

I am not hopeful about the long-term future of the EU and see civil unrest, if not war, breaking out. I do not want my children to be a part of that, so I'm voting out.   

I question the validity of that statement....

The rules of the EU are known and published, and require all members to agree to change them, as a member we are a part of that group and can influence change, that is the present position. Some changes have been agreed, although not as many as might be wished.

From the outside we would have no say and could be dictated to by those within. Why would the 27 give any credence to a country that has left ? 

[Kevin Wood]

If anyone STILL thinks we should remain, please take a few minutes to watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psLJ0lECmSw

And remember, this is an Irish MEP who is expected to vote on the measures. 

Democracy in action.

[Mister Rog]

"There is a tide in the affairs of men, Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune. Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries. On such a full sea are we now afloat. And we must take the current when it serves, or lose our ventures"

Will Shakespeare, my hero

BUT . . . . . . was he right ?

[Migalot]

as a member we are a part of that group and can influence change, that is the present position.

In 20 years, Britain has voted 72 times against European Council - and has been defeated 72 times. Britain funds 9.9pc of the EU budget and wields 1/28th of the power!

The bottom line is that the EU is an undemocratic bureaucracy. Did we, in the UK, vote for Juncker, Tusk or Schulz? Can we vote them out of we don't like their performance? The answer to both is 'No'. Thus, it is not a democracy 

[Sir Tigger KC]

Why would the 27 give any credence to a country that has left ?

They won't!   

There will be no free or favourable trade deal with the EU as all 27 members will have different needs and wants.    Pretty much the reason why the EU takes years if not decades to negotiate and conclude trade deals.  By contrast Australia and the USA negotiated and implemented a trade deal in 2 years! 

Brexit would hurt the Irish though.  Next time you're in Tesco's check out how much of the meat comes from Ireland and it's generally cheaper than British meat too. 

[ted_one]

9 hours and 15 minutes in the back of an ambulance outside A&E...a great example of how this country is being run...and who's  going to trust that utter pratt Camermoron and his bunch of yes men to negotiate a better deal with the EU. I guess it's the sheep amongst us that will believe any thing that's put in front of them..including the mint sauce

[Diamond Black Geezer]

I expect the vote result to be 'remain'... but, crucially, much like the recent Scottish referendum, this should hopefully serve to put the cat among the pigeons, and ideally let the rest of the EU see we're not happy bunnies.

I personally don't understand how being part of an 'on-paper' member's only club means we can trade more freely. Half of everything we buy is made in China, and they're not in the EU. It's very clever economics which I don't understand.

The Commonwealth was, is and should be ours. And that was/is something that should be nurtured and made wonderful. If we had half a brain post '45 we'd have thousands of factories in Africa, making decent, mass-produced goods, competing with far-eastern imports (with decent working conditions which we could control, unlike the sweatshops we've all been supporting via Primark for decades) With some better management, India would still be ours, and not own our steel industry (for now). The largest empire the world has ever seen was supposed to sit as an overseer for mainland united Europe, but crucially separate after the Second World War.... not get dragged in with it.

[05omegav6]

The rest of the EU doesn't give a monkeys left gonad what we think

[Migalot]

Best argument so far:

On the Remain side: Eddie Izzard, Vivienne Westwod

On the Leave side: Sir David Jason, Sir Ian Botham

The Leaves have it!! 

[Migalot]

An even better reason to Vote Leave just popped up:

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/02/former-commie-ec-commissioner-calls-people-log-onto-youtube-national-electronic-id/

 

[TheBoy]

There will be no free or favourable trade deal with the EU as all 27 members will have different needs and wants.

And anyone who thinks that individual countries will be bending over to allow us to export our goods into them, when it ultimately damages their own manufacturing/services/farming, without trying to add their own cut on top is probably having a nice pleasant dream.

And our own government, be that Mr Corbyn, Mr Cameron, Boris the Great or God Farage, will be doing likewise, taxing imports "encouraging to buy British", making goods more expensive.

[Nick W]

There will be no free or favourable trade deal with the EU as all 27 members will have different needs and wants.

And anyone who thinks that individual countries will be bending over to allow us to export our goods into them, when it ultimately damages their own manufacturing/services/farming, without trying to add their own cut on top is probably having a nice pleasant dream.

Consider this conversation:
British trade delegation: we would like to discuss favourable trade deals with you.


Any EU government: what was wrong with the ones you had, that your countrymen voted against in the referendum last week?


BTD: Errrrrrrrr


Any EU government: We'll add you to the list. Now I've an important conference with the ambassador of Wheretheoppsonthemapisit? about importing Spitting Image rubber chickens. Whatever they are.


BTD: But.......


Any EU government: Bye. See you in about 9 years when you're nearer the front of the queue.




I'm not a fan of the EU by any means; it needs some drastic surgery done with an axe. But for the Leave campaigners to be convincing, they need to have a vision of what they're hoping to achieve and a workable plan to do it. Not the "Don't worry about it, we won't all starve to death in the dark"  that we're presented with.

[Migalot]

There will be no free or favourable trade deal with the EU as all 27 members will have different needs and wants.

And anyone who thinks that individual countries will be bending over to allow us to export our goods into them, when it ultimately damages their own manufacturing/services/farming, without trying to add their own cut on top is probably having a nice pleasant dream.

Consider this conversation:
British trade delegation: we would like to discuss favourable trade deals with you.


Any EU government: what was wrong with the ones you had, that your countrymen voted against in the referendum last week?


BTD: Errrrrrrrr


Any EU government: We'll add you to the list. Now I've an important conference with the ambassador of Wheretheoppsonthemapisit? about importing Spitting Image rubber chickens. Whatever they are.


BTD: But.......


Any EU government: Bye. See you in about 9 years when you're nearer the front of the queue.




I'm not a fan of the EU by any means; it needs some drastic surgery done with an axe. But for the Leave campaigners to be convincing, they need to have a vision of what they're hoping to achieve and a workable plan to do it. Not the "Don't worry about it, we won't all starve to death in the dark"  that we're presented with.

Sorry, but that's simply wrong.

We have a large trade deficit with the EU – meaning that they export more to us than we export to them. Do you really think they would stop exporting to us? And, if they carry on exporting to us – which clearly they would, then we would carry on exporting to them. Trade is two-way!!!   

[TheBoy]

Sorry, but that's simply wrong.

We have a large trade deficit with the EU – meaning that they export more to us than we export to them. Do you really think they would stop exporting to us? And, if they carry on exporting to us – which clearly they would, then we would carry on exporting to them. Trade is two-way!!! 

I think that's wishful thinking, and its constant wishful, overly ambitious thinking that the Leave campaign is now trying to present as fact.

The shareprice of our manufacturers, service providers, and other exporters clearly show that every time a positive Leave poll is announced, the investers dump stock.  Which is hardly surprising when virtually every economist with a track record is saying the same thing.


Rule No 1: Look after your own voters first. That means giving your own industries an advantage.


Even if pigs started to fly and governments decided not levy taxes (dream on), I can tell you from the mindess, pointless training I've had too endure, exporting to non EU markets is a huge overhead, and does push up costs. If your biggest market is no longer open, free trade...   ...well, anyone can see...

To get trade agreements in place, large payments (lets call them foreign aid payments) will be needed to bribe sweeten the deal...   ...I wonder where that will come from? The bottomless pit of money the government has?  Same dream


And it wouldn't be a single deal with EU countries, it would be 27 separate deals, each with their own restrictions, costs, procedures and rules. Each would have to be separately negotiated, and you think we'll come out the winner in most cases? We'll get bogged down in sub-deals, payments, disputes between other countries which will damage our ability to trade with those where we've sided with another country...   ...you get the picture.



I am actually still undecided, but the Leave need to start showing some realistic facts.  I'm currently concerned we may leave for the wrong reasons, such as a "I don't like Cameron" or "I love Farage, what he says is Gospel", rather than what is best for the UK.


A lot of pro leave comments here and elsewhere is naοve 'dangle berries' with no grounding in reality

[Nick W]

There will be no free or favourable trade deal with the EU as all 27 members will have different needs and wants.

And anyone who thinks that individual countries will be bending over to allow us to export our goods into them, when it ultimately damages their own manufacturing/services/farming, without trying to add their own cut on top is probably having a nice pleasant dream.

Consider this conversation:
British trade delegation: we would like to discuss favourable trade deals with you.


Any EU government: what was wrong with the ones you had, that your countrymen voted against in the referendum last week?


BTD: Errrrrrrrr


Any EU government: We'll add you to the list. Now I've an important conference with the ambassador of Wheretheoppsonthemapisit? about importing Spitting Image rubber chickens. Whatever they are.


BTD: But.......


Any EU government: Bye. See you in about 9 years when you're nearer the front of the queue.




I'm not a fan of the EU by any means; it needs some drastic surgery done with an axe. But for the Leave campaigners to be convincing, they need to have a vision of what they're hoping to achieve and a workable plan to do it. Not the "Don't worry about it, we won't all starve to death in the dark"  that we're presented with.

Sorry, but that's simply wrong.

We have a large trade deficit with the EU – meaning that they export more to us than we export to them. Do you really think they would stop exporting to us? And, if they carry on exporting to us – which clearly they would, then we would carry on exporting to them. Trade is two-way!!! 

Thank you for that, I'd always understood a deficit to be a bad thing!


I've just looked up the definition, and the dictionary gives three; all of them are something you should actively strive to avoid.


Also, the EU doesn't trade with us; the member states do using numerous favourable treaties. Once we've slammed the door on those, they won't be coming back. National pride, and politicians(ours and theirs) propensity to cut off their noses to spite their faces will see to that.


I wouldn't be surprised to see the multi-nationals take one look at the figures and hassle, do some back of the envelope calculations, head down to the shop floor, turn off the power, lock the doors and leave for the continent.