Omega Owners Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to OOF

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ... 21   Go Down

Author Topic: The "Leave" campaign  (Read 44672 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Lagondanet

  • Omega Knight
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Bedfordshire
  • Posts: 1099
  • The Omega is gone!
    • View Profile
    • Lagondanet
Re: The "Leave" campaign
« Reply #105 on: 07 June 2016, 10:23:40 »

Apparently 46 million registered to vote & about 7 million eligible but unregistered.
Logged


1980 V8 Lagonda & a 2014 Adam & a 2015 Antara.

LC0112G

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • 0
  • Posts: 2450
    • View Profile
Re: The "Leave" campaign
« Reply #106 on: 07 June 2016, 10:45:52 »

A few issues with that...

1. Our law has supremacy over EU law, so we are a sovereign state again.

2. Our supreme court is our highest court not the ECJ.

The ECJ only rules on intra government EU regulations. HMG have signed up to all these rules and regulations within the EU, so the ECJ is only ruling on whether we are complying with the rules we have already agreed to. The ECJ has nothing to do with "Human Rights" and such - That's the European Court of Human Rights, which is not an EU institution, and we would still be a member of that even if we leave the EU. It's the ECHR that most people/politicians seem to have issues with.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relationship_between_the_European_Court_of_Justice_and_European_Court_of_Human_Rights

4. We can negotiate our own trade deals and this will happen much faster than through the EU as they have to get 28 countries to agree. This is why they have an appalling record with very few trade agreements that have taken an inordinate long time to negotiate, with failure to agree being a very common outcome.

But, the EU zone is the market for 43.7% of all UK exports. http://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/bulletins/uktrade/mar2016
If the EU is so slow to negotiate trade deals with others, why would they be any quicker with us?

5. CAP, CFP, minimum VAT rates will not apply, nor will the currently being implement common tax rules and rates or the soon to be formed EU-Army (which to French great satisfaction, undermines NATO).

If we stay in, these can't happen unless HMG agree.

6. It will take a minimum of 2 years to get the EEA deal and probably more like 6 years to unpick 40 years of EU regulation. The EFTA is a global trading block which will further boost our global trade.

A dangerous assumption. Article 50 defines a MAXIMUM of 2 years negotiation, not a minimum, unless the council agrees to an extension. It would only need one country to not agree, and then we're out after 2 years regardless of whether any agreements have been reached. At that point import tarrifs/duties for our exports into the EU would apply until we manage to negotiate a trade deal.

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

7. All these scare stories fables on how the sky will fall in on the 24th if we vote leave, take with a pinch of salt for the bullsh!t that they are. Norway went through the same with both their EU joining referendums which they rejected and yes it did make a difference they are now one of Europe's richest countries with a massive sovereign wealth fund.

Which they have been building for 50 odd years by saving the proceeds of their north sea oil. A country with similar oil reserves to the UK, but only 5 million people vs the UK's 60 million so it's not difficult to see where all the money has come from. They got lucky, and have been saving their windfall whilst we've been basically wasting the money. We are where we are - the UK is not going to get another north sea oil windfall anytime soon.

8. Being an EEA member means we pay much less than our current EU fees, saving in the order of £5-7bn.
Source?

Norway's (an EEA member) prime minister doesn't appear to agree
http://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/interview/vidar-helgesen-our-eea-contribution-costs-almost-as-much-as-eu-membership/
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model

Also, being in the EEA means complying with most EU laws, and accepting free movement of people, which seems to be what many Brexiters want to stop.
Logged

biggriffin

  • Omega Lord
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • huntingdon, Hoof'land
  • Posts: 9771
    • Vectra in a posh frock.
    • View Profile
Re: The "Leave" campaign
« Reply #107 on: 07 June 2016, 15:44:03 »

Here's a novel idea :o
Why can't somebody tell the truth  ???
Logged
Hoof'land storeman.

Mister Rog

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Wales
  • Posts: 2613
    • Volvo XC70 & V70 D3
    • View Profile
Re: The "Leave" campaign
« Reply #108 on: 07 June 2016, 16:07:54 »

Here's a novel idea :o
Why can't somebody tell the truth  ???


Fact is, they can't. Nobody, I mean NOBODY really knows with complete certainty the longer term benefits of staying and the disadvantages of leaving, and/or vice versa.

Everything we are told is opinion with or without some motive. Read everything, listen to everything, try to take everything on board, but mentally discard some of the hysterical dangleberries. Be sceptical.

In the last few days I've heard things from people that have swayed my opinion. And I think I have decided on my vote. However, I am not going to try and convince anyone to do the same.
Logged
“The desire to be a politician should bar you for life from ever becoming one.” Billy Connolly

STEMO

  • Guest
Re: The "Leave" campaign
« Reply #109 on: 07 June 2016, 16:44:17 »

Instead of trying to make your brain explode by thinking of all of the benefits and losses for the country in general, try to imagine what it might mean to you personally. Then, selfishly, cast your vote.
Logged

Mister Rog

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Wales
  • Posts: 2613
    • Volvo XC70 & V70 D3
    • View Profile
Re: The "Leave" campaign
« Reply #110 on: 07 June 2016, 17:42:38 »

Instead of trying to make your brain explode by thinking of all of the benefits and losses for the country in general, try to imagine what it might mean to you personally. Then, selfishly, cast your vote.

But even that isn't so easy. "imagine" is the correct word

Down my way Sir Terry Mathews (a seriously rich businessman) has come out in favour of remain. He is very highly regarded and respected. But his reasons ? Not at all sure about them.
Logged
“The desire to be a politician should bar you for life from ever becoming one.” Billy Connolly

Rods2

  • Omega Lord
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Sandhurst Berkshire
  • Posts: 7604
    • 1999 3.0 Elite Estate
    • View Profile
Re: The "Leave" campaign
« Reply #111 on: 07 June 2016, 20:43:03 »

A few issues with that...

The ECJ only rules on intra government EU regulations. HMG have signed up to all these rules and regulations within the EU, so the ECJ is only ruling on whether we are complying with the rules we have already agreed to. The ECJ has nothing to do with "Human Rights" and such - That's the European Court of Human Rights, which is not an EU institution, and we would still be a member of that even if we leave the EU. It's the ECHR that most people/politicians seem to have issues with.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relationship_between_the_European_Court_of_Justice_and_European_Court_of_Human_Rights

But, the EU zone is the market for 43.7% of all UK exports. http://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/bulletins/uktrade/mar2016
If the EU is so slow to negotiate trade deals with others, why would they be any quicker with us?

If we stay in, these can't happen unless HMG agree.

A dangerous assumption. Article 50 defines a MAXIMUM of 2 years negotiation, not a minimum, unless the council agrees to an extension. It would only need one country to not agree, and then we're out after 2 years regardless of whether any agreements have been reached. At that point import tarrifs/duties for our exports into the EU would apply until we manage to negotiate a trade deal.

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

Which they have been building for 50 odd years by saving the proceeds of their north sea oil. A country with similar oil reserves to the UK, but only 5 million people vs the UK's 60 million so it's not difficult to see where all the money has come from. They got lucky, and have been saving their windfall whilst we've been basically wasting the money. We are where we are - the UK is not going to get another north sea oil windfall anytime soon.

Norway's (an EEA member) prime minister doesn't appear to agree
http://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/interview/vidar-helgesen-our-eea-contribution-costs-almost-as-much-as-eu-membership/
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model

Also, being in the EEA means complying with most EU laws, and accepting free movement of people, which seems to be what many Brexiters want to stop.

The ECJ regularly through judgments increase the scope and depth of EU laws. Today is a good example that migrants can now ignore inter-border Schengen. The UK lost a very big corporate VAT rebate ruling which cost the Government £billions. Now if this had been UK law it could have been revised so it worked as the UK government intended as it was EU law, there was zero chance of any change. Ask any MP how muchEU law imposes on what they can do compared to what they would like to do and all UK law has to pass the test of being fully complaint with EU law.

In 1989 the EU was 54% of our export market. Where the majority of the EU is now a low growth area, so our exports to the rest of the world are growing at a faster rate then those to the EU. THE EU will not suddenly stop trading with us after 2 years as they sell much more to us than we do to them. It is the EU trade that give us our consistent worrying trade deficit.

You are wrong that tax rules can't be imposed VAT is a classic example, once something is VATable, it can not ever be VAT free and carries a minimum VAT rate of 5% unless all of 28 EU countries agree a special exception like recently with women's sanitary towels. Although the harmonization of taxes is primary aimed at Euro countries, once it is implemented we will no longer have NI numbers but EU tax numbers and it is not difficult to work out what they will be used for! Likewise, it looks like corporation tax rules will also apply EU wide with a common rate to stop abuses tax competition. There is also a wide disparity between the low and high tax countries and it won't be the high tax countries that will be willing to cut. This will mean higher prices for all of us.

Norway have been fortunate, and another EEA country must also be very lucky where they have no oil or gas but have gone from in 1955 to having 63% of PPP wealth compared to the US to 105% in 2015. With small Government, low taxes and very strong democracy with an electorate right to call referendums, the luckier they seem to have got, that's right Switzerland. In comparison Sweden have been very unlucky, nothing to do with being in the EU, large government and high taxes, just bad luck.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/6/richard-rahn-socialism-triggers-downward-spiral/

http://capx.co/is-norway-a-model-for-britains-relationship-with-the-eu/
Logged
US Fracking and Saudi Arabia defending its market share = The good news of an oil glut, lower and lower prices for us and squeaky bum time for Putin!

biggriffin

  • Omega Lord
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • huntingdon, Hoof'land
  • Posts: 9771
    • Vectra in a posh frock.
    • View Profile
Re: The "Leave" campaign
« Reply #112 on: 07 June 2016, 21:08:57 »

Here's a thought.
Mr Eu says to Blighty, "we fine you €20millon euro"
Blighty says "up yours we ain't paying"

What is Mr Eu going to do, send the army in, arrest Dave,.
A pint to think over :-X
Logged
Hoof'land storeman.

Sir Tigger KC

  • Get A Life!!
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • West Dorset
  • Posts: 23588
    • 2 Fords
    • View Profile
Re: The "Leave" campaign
« Reply #113 on: 07 June 2016, 21:17:32 »

Here's a thought.
Mr Eu says to Blighty, "we fine you €20millon euro"
Blighty says publicly "up yours we ain't paying"

Blighty says privately "How soon can we pay?"


Probably nearer the truth to mull over your 568ml  ;)
Logged
RIP Paul 'Luvvie' Lovejoy

Politically homeless ......

gbh

  • Intermediate Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • forest of dean
  • Posts: 440
    • omega cdx 2.6
    • View Profile
Re: The "Leave" campaign
« Reply #114 on: 07 June 2016, 22:14:09 »

Just watched the EU debate,at least Farage tried to answer the questions when not interupted, Cameron just dodged at least 2 questions in classic politician style!!
Logged

LC0112G

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • 0
  • Posts: 2450
    • View Profile
Re: The "Leave" campaign
« Reply #115 on: 07 June 2016, 22:29:40 »

The ECJ regularly through judgments increase the scope and depth of EU laws. Today is a good example that migrants can now ignore inter-border Schengen. The UK lost a very big corporate VAT rebate ruling which cost the Government £billions. Now if this had been UK law it could have been revised so it worked as the UK government intended as it was EU law, there was zero chance of any change. Ask any MP how muchEU law imposes on what they can do compared to what they would like to do and all UK law has to pass the test of being fully complaint with EU law.
They don't extend the scope or depth. They interpret the laws that have been passed by the various EU bodies. On occasions one countries interpretation of these laws conflicts with another countries interpretation. The ECJ makes a determination on which (if either) interpretation is "correct". If the laws are badly drafted, or the countries involved didn't understand what they were signing up to then that's their fault, not the ECJ's. 

In 1989 the EU was 54% of our export market. Where the majority of the EU is now a low growth area, so our exports to the rest of the world are growing at a faster rate then those to the EU. THE EU will not suddenly stop trading with us after 2 years as they sell much more to us than we do to them. It is the EU trade that give us our consistent worrying trade deficit.

No-one is saying the EU will stop trading with the UK after BRexit, but the damage caused by tarrifs/duties to the UK would be much worse than to the remainder of the EU. The EU accounts for 43.7% of UK exports. The UK imports account for around 18% of EU exports. So whilst it's true the monetary value of EU imports is higher (as you say trade defecit), the percentage impact is much worse on the UK. Worst case (which won't happen) the UK loses 43% of exports, and the EU loses 18% - who's would that hurt the most?  It's difficult to imagine any scenario where the UK comes out as the "winner" (or more accurately best loser) in any post Brexit tarrif/duty war.

You are wrong that tax rules can't be imposed VAT is a classic example, once something is VATable, it can not ever be VAT free and carries a minimum VAT rate of 5% unless all of 28 EU countries agree a special exception like recently with women's sanitary towels. Although the harmonization of taxes is primary aimed at Euro countries, once it is implemented we will no longer have NI numbers but EU tax numbers and it is not difficult to work out what they will be used for! Likewise, it looks like corporation tax rules will also apply EU wide with a common rate to stop abuses tax competition. There is also a wide disparity between the low and high tax countries and it won't be the high tax countries that will be willing to cut. This will mean higher prices for all of us.

I'm not wrong. Your description of the VAT system is correct. The recent VAT ECJ cases have revolved around the UK not applying the EU rules that we have already agreed to and have been passed correctly. The UK may want to vary it's tax rates, but it has already agreed that it would follow EU rules. You can't agree to do something and then go off and unilaterally do something else.

There is no chance of EU wide NI or corporation tax unless all 28 countries agree. The UK will use it's VETO if it has to in order to stop it.

Norway have been fortunate, and another EEA country must also be very lucky where they have no oil or gas but have gone from in 1955 to having 63% of PPP wealth compared to the US to 105% in 2015. With small Government, low taxes and very strong democracy with an electorate right to call referendums, the luckier they seem to have got, that's right Switzerland. In comparison Sweden have been very unlucky, nothing to do with being in the EU, large government and high taxes, just bad luck.

Huh? Switzerland isn't a member of the EEA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Supranational_European_Bodies-en.svg

It is in EFTA. In order to trade within the EU is pays roughly half what Norway does (per capita) into the EU coffers, and has a reciprocal free movement of people agreement with the EU.
Logged

Mister Rog

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Wales
  • Posts: 2613
    • Volvo XC70 & V70 D3
    • View Profile
Re: The "Leave" campaign
« Reply #116 on: 07 June 2016, 23:01:04 »


There's a lot of words here. And I'm dyslexic   ???
Logged
“The desire to be a politician should bar you for life from ever becoming one.” Billy Connolly

Steve B

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Leicestershire
  • Posts: 3638
    • '52' MV6 3.2 Saloon
    • View Profile
Re: The "Leave" campaign
« Reply #117 on: 07 June 2016, 23:18:08 »

You have had all the "good the bad and ugly" Of what will happen if we leave or stay....That's your lot folks...All they can do is go over old ground now, so its time to vote.  :D :D :D :D

WW3 Or a night in bed with...........Angie  ;D ;D ;D ;D

« Last Edit: 07 June 2016, 23:20:29 by BIGtime »
Logged

Mister Rog

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Wales
  • Posts: 2613
    • Volvo XC70 & V70 D3
    • View Profile
Re: The "Leave" campaign
« Reply #118 on: 07 June 2016, 23:30:07 »

You have had all the "good the bad and ugly" Of what will happen if we leave or stay....That's your lot folks...All they can do is go over old ground now, so its time to vote.  :D :D :D :D

WW3 Or a night in bed with...........Angie  ;D ;D ;D ;D


Cor ! Where's my Sildenafil. Actually, not sure even that would do it . . . . .
Logged
“The desire to be a politician should bar you for life from ever becoming one.” Billy Connolly

Steve B

  • Omega Baron
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Leicestershire
  • Posts: 3638
    • '52' MV6 3.2 Saloon
    • View Profile
Re: The "Leave" campaign
« Reply #119 on: 07 June 2016, 23:34:49 »

You have had all the "good the bad and ugly" Of what will happen if we leave or stay....That's your lot folks...All they can do is go over old ground now, so its time to vote.  :D :D :D :D

WW3 Or a night in bed with...........Angie  ;D ;D ;D ;D


Cor ! Where's my Sildenafil. Actually, not sure even that would do it . . . . .
Dont be so fussy
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ... 21   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.022 seconds with 17 queries.