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[Varche]

So we have the pro Russian yanks negotiating with Russia without Ukraine or for that matter Europe present.

This despite Europe now bankrolling the war effort. Europe does have a leader ( VDL) who could get the none EU leaders onside and agreeing. However they cannot even agree on how to use the seized assets , mostly held by Brussels let alone how to get peace. Meanwhile Russia is waging cyber war and drone intrusions here in Europe.

Anyone else feel that the war will grind on and on until Russia gets Ukraine and Europe absorbs the displaced Ukrainians?

[dave the builder]

....

Anyone else feel that the war will grind on and on until Russia gets Ukraine and Europe absorbs the displaced Ukrainians?

it won't STOP there 

[Sir Tigger KC]

I read earlier that Britain only has 14 large artillery guns, 40 odd operational tanks and no air defences, so if it does become a wider conflict we're fooked because if Putin does start lobbing missiles about, London or somewhere like RAF Coningsby/HMNB Portsmouth will be a prime targets! 

Meanwhile our ragtag bunch of student activists who currently run this country, lie about the state of the nations finances so they can 'ask people to pay a little bit more' so they can dish out more money in benefits to placate their restive leftie back benchers. 

[STEMO]

I was going to have a rant and try to list everything that's wrong with the UK, and the rest of the world. But I thought that would take too long, as there are so many.
So, instead, I thought I'd list everything that's going well at the moment.
Here it is:

[Varche]

I read earlier that Britain only has 14 large artillery guns, 40 odd operational tanks and no air defences, so if it does become a wider conflict we're fooked because if Putin does start lobbing missiles about, London or somewhere like RAF Coningsby/HMNB Portsmouth will be a prime targets! 

Meanwhile our ragtag bunch of student activists who currently run this country, lie about the state of the nations finances so they can 'ask people to pay a little bit more' so they can dish out more money in benefits to placate their restive leftie back benchers.  ::)what.  30%

A defence expert said the uk only has defence against incoming missile, drones at military bases.

Rachel from accounts had the perfect opportunity to say we are defenceless and need to spend the black hole on defence.. even the rich would have swallowed that. 2.6 % of gdp is just not enough when Russia is spending what    30%

Buy shares in any military drone making company

[Kevin Wood]

If Europe could make a decision about it, it wouldn't take much more support for Ukraine (along with more sanctions against Russia) to turn Putin's feeling that he's gradually winning to one of gradually losing.
That would be a game changer. The US can't be relied upon to do the right thing so Europe's future is in Europe's hands...

[STEMO]

If Europe could make a decision about it, it wouldn't take much more support for Ukraine (along with more sanctions against Russia) to turn Putin's feeling that he's gradually winning to one of gradually losing.
That would be a game changer. The US can't be relied upon to do the right thing so Europe's future is in Europe's hands...

Since when has 'Europe' ever made a decision, about anything? Too many competing interests, ideas and cultures. If Russia nuked the UK, Europe would find a way to say that we're not really European and, anyway, it's our own fault for being so British.

[Kevin Wood]

If Europe could make a decision about it, it wouldn't take much more support for Ukraine (along with more sanctions against Russia) to turn Putin's feeling that he's gradually winning to one of gradually losing.
That would be a game changer. The US can't be relied upon to do the right thing so Europe's future is in Europe's hands...

Since when has 'Europe' ever made a decision, about anything? Too many competing interests, ideas and cultures. If Russia nuked the UK, Europe would find a way to say that we're not really European and, anyway, it's our own fault for being so British.

True, and exactly my point.

[Varche]

True, a very big failing of the EU. They would have to have some meetings to agree to move friendly forces through each others countries to defend…….oh and Hungary would veto.

Here’s a thought. fag packet maths. Assuming Russia takes all of the Ukraine. How many would stay and become Russian citizens. ? Let’s say 30 million leave and are distributed equally across Europe
.
Britains share? 70/500 x 30 =4,2 million. Where would they live? It would dwarf the illegal boat people!

[LC0112G]

People need to make up their minds - do you want an EU army/navy/airforce or not?

At the moment defence is not an EU function. Every European country (EU or not) has sovereign control of it's own forces. So whilst the EU is guilty of many things, it's got no role in military support for Ukr using any countries existing assets. Sure - it can provide funding for Ukr to buy stuff, but it has no control of any army, navy or airforce to send in.

If there were a "coalition of the willing" then one, some or all of the European nations could send in their army, navy and/or airforce now, with no approval required from anyone. That would certainly upset both the US and Russia, and would likely result in a response from Russia against those countries that took part. And worse, if Russia were to attack a NATO country as a result of their participation, that would not automatically invoke Article 5 of the NATO treaty, since it can be argued that the NATO country 'started it'.

I've said it from the beginning, this war is going to go on for 5+ years. The west will not get directly involved, and the best that can be hoped for is that western countries use that 5+ year period to re-arm. That's exactly what Poland, Sweden and Finland are doing, and to a lesser extent France and Germany. However, the UK response so far has been very poor. Lots of talk about 3.5% and 5% defence spending, but no sign of it actually happening.

[Sir Tigger KC]

People need to make up their minds - do you want an EU army/navy/airforce or not?

Well we are not a member of the EU so it's irrelevant to us and they can do what they like, but if we were still members I'd say no as defence cooperation should be concentrated through NATO.

Why spend billions of taxpayers cash building an EU NATO type organisation? 

[STEMO]

It would please the Donald immensely if he thought that Europe had its own defence force. No need for NATO any more, and no feeble excuses needed for walking away.

[Sir Tigger KC]

All Trumpy has ever asked is that NATO countries pull their weight and maintain decent sized and equipped militaries so they can make a proportionate contribution.  If he did pull America from NATO, we'd only have ourselves to blame as we've taken the piss for decades. 

[Doctor Gollum]

Or stop finding Ukraine.

I know that's a controversial perspective, but...

[Sir Tigger KC]

Or stop finding Ukraine.

I know that's a controversial perspective, but...

Damn those clever satnavs!