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[Kevin Wood]

I realise I am at odds with .. most people, I imagine, but personally I think university degrees should be entirely self funded (via loans if necessary)..

The problem is, that generates a massive incentive for graduates to get into industry and pay back their debts. This is the opposite to what we want IMHO. The most intelligent "thinkers" need to remain in academia doing research, which is poorly paid in comparison. Many of the brightest come from less affluent families and will either be put off further education by the prospect of debt, and never realise their potential,or get jobs in industry after a first degree and not pass it on to others via the academic institutions.

Kevin

[Banjax]

Banjax - that post made a lot of sense.

Im going to lie down in a dark room now.

Yes, it did make sense.

Think I might have to join you in that dark room, Albs!   

I'm glad you two have such an open relationship you feel you can share with the group 

It's quite beautiful....sniff.... 

[aaronjb]

I realise I am at odds with .. most people, I imagine, but personally I think university degrees should be entirely self funded (via loans if necessary)..

The problem is, that generates a massive incentive for graduates to get into industry and pay back their debts. This is the opposite to what we want IMHO. The most intelligent "thinkers" need to remain in academia doing research, which is poorly paid in comparison. Many of the brightest come from less affluent families and will either be put off further education by the prospect of debt, and never realise their potential,or get jobs in industry after a first degree and not pass it on to others via the academic institutions.

Kevin

True I suppose - I always considered, though, that a career in academia was more of a vocation than a career, if that makes sense; something you'd do because you had a deep desire to teach, rather than for the money.

I imagine you could offset some of that problem by careful structuring of the repayment plans for student loans - it might be considerable debt, but debt you could pay off over your entire teaching career and/or die and leave some left behind that's written off by the state.

I imagine my perspective comes from the fact that I didn't go to University at all - a large number of friends of mine did, and ultimately? We all earn similar amounts (in the same industry) despite our vast difference in academic careers - I didn't even finish my A-levels while they went on to, in one case, Oxford..

[pscocoa]

Our erstwhile PM Cameron has gone to China to seek advice how to best deal with students. Hope he finds the solution soon.

Many students go to Unviersity on the back of appallingly low A level standards and even come out of University without a good appreciation of basic maths or how to write a letter.

Internet cut and paste thesis and agencies paid to get them through.

Where's my medicine - I will be ok in a minute!!

[Nickbat]

I have read that some of these "students" (some are allegedly not students at all) are throwing fire extinguishers off the roof of CCHQ. Some serious injuries "reported".

 

[Lizzie_Zoom]

Our erstwhile PM Cameron has gone to China to seek advice how to best deal with students. Hope he finds the solution soon.

Many students go to Unviersity on the back of appallingly low A level standards and even come out of University without a good appreciation of basic maths or how to write a letter.

Internet cut and paste thesis and agencies paid to get them through.

Where's my medicine - I will be ok in a minute!!

Not the students I have got to know well, and certainly have no trouble in writing very good essays.  In addition "cut and paste" is plagiarism, which is not only dealt with harshly, but is now identified by the use of a special software programme being used by the universities.

[Mysteryman]

Our erstwhile PM Cameron has gone to China to seek advice how to best deal with students. Hope he finds the solution soon.

Many students go to Unviersity on the back of appallingly low A level standards and even come out of University without a good appreciation of basic maths or how to write a letter.

Internet cut and paste thesis and agencies paid to get them through.

Where's my medicine - I will be ok in a minute!!

Yes. Our glorious leader has the solution to the problem. 100,000 Chinese students paying top whack for an education over here then taking all their knowledge back home so that they can take over the world.
But never mind, he'll be writing his memoirs by then.

On the subject of what's happening in London, someone suggested tear gas. I would suggest mustard gas, that would be an education for them.

[Kevin Wood]

True I suppose - I always considered, though, that a career in academia was more of a vocation than a career, if that makes sense; something you'd do because you had a deep desire to teach, rather than for the money.

I'm sure that's true, but with a 30k debt hanging over my head, I'd want it gone. Maybe that's just my attitude towards debt in  general... I don't like it.

I imagine my perspective comes from the fact that I didn't go to University at all - a large number of friends of mine did, and ultimately? We all earn similar amounts (in the same industry) despite our vast difference in academic careers - I didn't even finish my A-levels while they went on to, in one case, Oxford..

That is exactly my point. A degree might get your foot in the door easier, but it's not a degree that makes you able to do the job in 99% of cases - so why do increasing numbers of people need them?

I have read that some of these "students" (some are allegedly not students at all) are throwing fire extinguishers off the roof of CCHQ. Some serious injuries "reported".

It was just the same when I was at university with the poll tax. And back then it was those doing "non-degrees" that went to all the protests. .. and were last to leave the SU bar every night.

Not that I can talk really. I had my moments where, if I'd been able to walk I might have left earlier...

Kevin

[Elite Pete]

I just hope my students aren't wasting their rent money on a train ticket to London

[Dishevelled Den]

I was seriously considering taking a degree next year , subject - Take That, the early years. The fees are putting me off though.

So they should.

Having gone through university back when it was all paid for I think the levels of fees currently being touted would make me seriously reconsider whether I want to end up £30k+ in debt at the start of my career just for a certificate, which is a shame for those for whom university education is the right choice.

It's a product of B.Liar's ridiculous assertion that 50% of school leavers need a degree and the proliferation of useless degree courses, IMHO. The state simply can't fund that.

Mine was an engineering degree and pretty much full time education: 9-5 most days with lab sessions and lectures with a good bit of work to take home too.

Even back then there were other students studying other disciplines doing useful activities for no more than a handful of hours a week. Back then I wondered at the sense of the public purse funding this and I don't think it's got any better, nor will it if we are to educate 50% of school leavers to degree level. :-/

I'm not trying to belittle anyone's education here. I just don't believe university is the answer to most people's (or employer's) needs. University is there to set people up for a career in academic research not for the career of practical work at the coal-face in industry that most people end up following.

The fact that most students (myself included) leave after a bachelors degree, go into industry and then have to learn on-the-job from a practical perspective rather than a theoretical perspective how to get the job done shows how irrelevant most degree courses are to real jobs.

I think what we need is to get back to the 1960's level of 20% or so of people going to university and then, mostly, into academic research with a proper government grant but to fill the gap with decent, more practical training that will put people straight into jobs in industry.

Kevin

That's as well reasoned a piece on this subject I've read in a long time.  8-)

[Lizzie_Zoom]

I have not (deliberately) been controversial on here for some time but now....................................................................


I am never one for violence and war, that is my way. 

But I am becomingly increasingly amused by how many members who post their feelings on what the Government are up to, how the EU is somehow stitching us all up, how we are being conned by the "Climate change" lobby, with alternative power generation, and as for "Green" policies along with anything to do with the Environmental controls, well, the 'anger' 'similes' shown display real negative reaction.

However get a movement of young students (and yes other politically motivated individuals) protesting in the strongest terms, getting off their backsides, and actually trying to turn the tide and their is much derision!!

In my youth young. and old, protested over the Vietnam War with very active action outside the American Embassy in London; there was "Ban The Bomb" marches, the LSE (London School of Economics) were continually protesting everywhere about Political decisions of the Government; then we had Unionist throughout the 70s & 80s stirring up trouble, with the Coal Miners Strike of 84/85 causing real violence; but the "Poll Tax" action by students and every politically  active person causing mayhem, and Maggie backing down!!.  Now what are "we" all doing?  Oh, we had mass protests over the Iraq war, but what else.  No we moan about this that and the other on here, but then when a group takes action the "commitment" of some definitely weakens!!

Amazing!  Talk about double standards!  Sometimes to bring about change direct action is required otherwise the Political landscape stays the same.  Thank God I say for the London Correspondence Society, the Chartists of the 1830s/40s, and the earlier Tolpuddle Martyrs, along with many others who took direct action otherwise nothing would have changed!!

[Banjax]

good points Liz, I have no problem with people demonstrating, even violence is sometimes necessary (women were given the vote only after long, turbulent, violent and dangerous protests by the Womens Social and Political Union for suffrage), and I have no doubt that a couple of students can easily make a peaceful demo look, in the eyes of the TV cameras, a violent mob - I have no problem with their right to voice and demonstrate their feelings, but I just think nowadays they only get worked up about what affects them rather than say the Vietnam war, poll tax or human rights, so it looks like a jolly, no ones that worked up - I'd guess a couple of them got a bit "merry" or over excited and the 24hr press are having a field day with the footage.

but chose your battles is all i'd say - we cant afford to fund everyone anymore, why should a cleaner on minimum wage pay for someone elses kid to spend 5 yrs at uni then go on to earn shedloads? that doesnt seem fair basically and the LibDems were stupid to ever promise they'd abolish fees 

[Nickbat]

I have not (deliberately) been controversial on here for some time but now....................................................................


I am never one for violence and war, that is my way. 

But I am becomingly increasingly amused by how many members who post their feelings on what the Government are up to, how the EU is somehow stitching us all up, how we are being conned by the "Climate change" lobby, with alternative power generation, and as for "Green" policies along with anything to do with the Environmental controls, well, the 'anger' 'similes' shown display real negative reaction.

However get a movement of young students (and yes other politically motivated individuals) protesting in the strongest terms, getting off their backsides, and actually trying to turn the tide and their is much derision!!

In my youth young. and old, protested over the Vietnam War with very active action outside the American Embassy in London; there was "Ban The Bomb" marches, the LSE (London School of Economics) were continually protesting everywhere about Political decisions of the Government; then we had Unionist throughout the 70s & 80s stirring up trouble, with the Coal Miners Strike of 84/85 causing real violence; but the "Poll Tax" action by students and every politically  active person causing mayhem, and Maggie backing down!!.  Now what are "we" all doing?  Oh, we had mass protests over the Iraq war, but what else.  No we moan about this that and the other on here, but then when a group takes action the "commitment" of some definitely weakens!!

Amazing!  Talk about double standards!  Sometimes to bring about change direct action is required otherwise the Political landscape stays the same.  Thank God I say for the London Correspondence Society, the Chartists of the 1830s/40s, and the earlier Tolpuddle Martyrs, along with many others who took direct action otherwise nothing would have changed!!
 

By "direct action", do you mean hurling fire extinguishers off roofs, committing criminal damage, theft and assault?

Even the president of the NUS has deplored such behaviour.

There are no double standards at all, Lizzie. In fact there have been some extremely wise comments on here about the way the system has become financially unsustainable and how the political aim of shoving every Tom Dick & Harry through university, whatever their vocation, is not good for the country, or for many students.

The "students'" arguments are not enhanced by violence, which is what "direct action" has come to mean.

Here are my smilies:

     

[Andy B]

....
 we cant afford to fund everyone anymore,  ....

how about tuition fees for north of the border? that'd help!   

[Richie London]

my son is 14 and didnt know where wales was a few weeks ago. anyone know??