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[Nickbat]

To start with they are not!

How do you know, Lizzie? You're just guessing and hoping someone takes it on as a fact!

Then there is the legal situation.  Read this Nick:

The land dispute has increasingly focused on Israel's occupation of the remaining territories -- the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem. UN Resolutions 242 and 338 stipulate that Israel must withdraw completely from these territories. Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip on 12 September 2005, but continues to build many Jewish settlements in the other territories, actions deemed illegal by virtually all other states. The Oslo Accords (1993) and the Road Map (2003) have failed to reach a land agreement between the parties or to bring Israeli withdrawal.

Since 2002, the Israeli government has been building a "security fence" that winds deep into Palestinian territory, claiming the barrier would keep Palestinian suicide bombers from striking Israeli citizens. But this separation wall is a major de facto annexation of Palestinian territories. By building the wall and increasing settlement expansion, Israel retains control over important Palestinian economic areas, agricultural grounds and natural resources like water. The International Court of Justice has ruled that Israel's West Bank barrier violates international law, but the unequal struggle over the land of Palestine continues. "

There is no "legal" position per se, since there is no world body that can legally decide what is, and what isn't, legal. That's why all that talk about the Iraq war being illegal is a bit daft. The ICJ has no globally-accepted mandate and no powers of enforceable punishment. Ditto, the UN. No-one, to my knowledge, has yet written the Rules of the World.

Besides which, as I said earlier, your stance is clear - that you have a predisposition to one side in this conflict. We need independent, unbiased, viewsto solve the question.   

[Lizzie_Zoom]

For double standards you only have to look at the Jews and Palestine. Why hasn't the murder of Arabs been stopped there? (Rhetorical question doesn't need an answer).
 

Huh? 

What about the murder of Jews? It's a two-way street, Varche.

12 March 2011: Five members of Jewish family killed in suspected Palestinian militant attack

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/12/west-bank-jewish-family-killed

I wish you showed the same sensitivity when palestinians were under phosphor bombs :-/

And what about the Jewish men women and children who have been ripped limb from limb by suicide bombs? If you try to argue that one form of violent death is more or less bad than another, the argument is lost before you start.

Before Cem answers I will just ask you Nick why you think the following figures are as they are?

At least 6,430 Palestinians and 1,084 Israelis
have been killed since September 29, 2000.

That tells a story!

Nick you have conveniently ignored the figures I presented, as above.

Well now look at the composition of those figures:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

NOTE these figures in particular: 
                                                     Israelis       Palestinians
Children Killed
(More on the impact on children.)       124          1,452

 

So all those children were engaged in suicide bombings or causing trouble eh?

Look at the facts at where the people in the chart were when killed!

[Lizzie_Zoom]

To start with they are not!

How do you know, Lizzie? You're just guessing and hoping someone takes it on as a fact!

Then there is the legal situation.  Read this Nick:

The land dispute has increasingly focused on Israel's occupation of the remaining territories -- the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem. UN Resolutions 242 and 338 stipulate that Israel must withdraw completely from these territories. Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip on 12 September 2005, but continues to build many Jewish settlements in the other territories, actions deemed illegal by virtually all other states. The Oslo Accords (1993) and the Road Map (2003) have failed to reach a land agreement between the parties or to bring Israeli withdrawal.

Since 2002, the Israeli government has been building a "security fence" that winds deep into Palestinian territory, claiming the barrier would keep Palestinian suicide bombers from striking Israeli citizens. But this separation wall is a major de facto annexation of Palestinian territories. By building the wall and increasing settlement expansion, Israel retains control over important Palestinian economic areas, agricultural grounds and natural resources like water. The International Court of Justice has ruled that Israel's West Bank barrier violates international law, but the unequal struggle over the land of Palestine continues. "

There is no "legal" position per se, since there is no world body that can legally decide what is, and what isn't, legal. That's why all that talk about the Iraq war being illegal is a bit daft. The ICJ has no globally-accepted mandate and no powers of enforceable punishment. Ditto, the UN. No-one, to my knowledge, has yet written the Rules of the World.

Besides which, as I said earlier, your stance is clear - that you have a predisposition to one side in this conflict. We need independent, unbiased, viewsto solve the question.   

Because I have listened to representatives of the various Jewish organisations, I have spoken to many Jewish individuals (remember my family is non-practising Jewish in origin), and I have read statements by various Jewish individuals.  Many, but I must admit not all, have stated their shame at what the Israelis are doing and the term "like Nazis", the greatest insult to us all, has been used.

The shedding of blood must stop, and the Palestinian and Israeli states must start to live together, with the Jewish settlers vacating Palestinian land forthwith.

Yes it is a complex situation, but just look at those casualty figures

[Nickbat]

For double standards you only have to look at the Jews and Palestine. Why hasn't the murder of Arabs been stopped there? (Rhetorical question doesn't need an answer).
 

Huh? 

What about the murder of Jews? It's a two-way street, Varche.

12 March 2011: Five members of Jewish family killed in suspected Palestinian militant attack

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/12/west-bank-jewish-family-killed

I wish you showed the same sensitivity when palestinians were under phosphor bombs :-/

And what about the Jewish men women and children who have been ripped limb from limb by suicide bombs? If you try to argue that one form of violent death is more or less bad than another, the argument is lost before you start.

Before Cem answers I will just ask you Nick why you think the following figures are as they are?

At least 6,430 Palestinians and 1,084 Israelis
have been killed since September 29, 2000.

That tells a story!

Nick you have conveniently ignored the figures I presented, as above.

Well now look at the composition of those figures:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

NOTE these figures in particular: 
                                                     Israelis       Palestinians
Children Killed
(More on the impact on children.)       124          1,452

 

So all those children were engaged in suicide bombings or causing trouble eh?

Look at the facts at where the people in the chart were when killed!

Oh, no the "Dead Children" argument finally rears its head.

[Lizzie_Zoom]

For double standards you only have to look at the Jews and Palestine. Why hasn't the murder of Arabs been stopped there? (Rhetorical question doesn't need an answer).
 

Huh? 

What about the murder of Jews? It's a two-way street, Varche.

12 March 2011: Five members of Jewish family killed in suspected Palestinian militant attack

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/12/west-bank-jewish-family-killed

I wish you showed the same sensitivity when palestinians were under phosphor bombs :-/

And what about the Jewish men women and children who have been ripped limb from limb by suicide bombs? If you try to argue that one form of violent death is more or less bad than another, the argument is lost before you start.

Before Cem answers I will just ask you Nick why you think the following figures are as they are?

At least 6,430 Palestinians and 1,084 Israelis
have been killed since September 29, 2000.

That tells a story!

Nick you have conveniently ignored the figures I presented, as above.

Well now look at the composition of those figures:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

NOTE these figures in particular: 
                                                     Israelis       Palestinians
Children Killed
(More on the impact on children.)       124          1,452

 

So all those children were engaged in suicide bombings or causing trouble eh?

Look at the facts at where the people in the chart were when killed!

Oh, no the "Dead Children" argument finally rears its head.

Right, at that point, in the interests of my health and the Forum

[cem_devecioglu]

what you want Nick, do we have to ignore who loose their lifes, including children ?

Honestly , many Israelis dont approve that.. but the right wings..

[Nickbat]

Because I have listened to representatives of the various Jewish organisations, I have spoken to many Jewish individuals (remember my family is non-practising Jewish in origin), and I have read statements by various Jewish individuals.  Many, but I must admit not all, have stated their shame at what the Israelis are doing and the term "like Nazis", the greatest insult to us all, has been used.

So you've listened to a few spokespersons and spoken to a few Jewish individuals that you know, yet feel that is enough to validate your assertion that "so many Jews around the world are very "uncomfortable".

I'm sure that there are, indeed, a number of Jews who do not support the actions of Israel, but neither I nor you could put a figure on that. In comparison  to the global Jewish population, the amount that do not support could be a few, or more. I was surprised that you put up your own, non-quantifiable, estimate as an indisputable fact.  :-?

[cem_devecioglu]

Because I have listened to representatives of the various Jewish organisations, I have spoken to many Jewish individuals (remember my family is non-practising Jewish in origin), and I have read statements by various Jewish individuals.  Many, but I must admit not all, have stated their shame at what the Israelis are doing and the term "like Nazis", the greatest insult to us all, has been used.

So you've listened to a few spokespersons and spoken to a few Jewish individuals that you know, yet feel that is enough to validate your assertion that "so many Jews around the world are very "uncomfortable".

I'm sure that there are, indeed, a number of Jews who do not support the actions of Israel, but neither I nor you could put a figure on that. In comparison  to the global Jewish population, the amount that do not support could be a few, or more. I was surprised that you put up your own, non-quantifiable, estimate as an indisputable fact.  :-?

 

deads are enough quantifiable imo!!!

[Nickbat]

what you want Nick, do we have to ignore who loose their lifes, including children ?

Honestly , many Israelis dont approve that.. but the right wings..

No, Cem, and you know perfectly well that I do not ignore them. But, equally, you should understand that presenting figures in this way is neither helpful nor proof of right or wrong. One shell which accidentally misses a terrorist and hits civilians including children is deeply shocking and to be avoided. However, using such errors to build up a league table of infant deaths to make a political point cannot be right. It creates an emotive atmosphere which is more likely to extend hostilities rather than shorten them. Indeed, albeit by slightly tortured logic, such emotional outbursts could actually prolong conflict by hardening people's positions and could therefore actually lead to more deaths than would be the case if people worked towards to resolving the underlying issues. In this case, the rights of both Palestinians and Israelis to peacefully co-exist.       

[albitz]

For double standards you only have to look at the Jews and Palestine. Why hasn't the murder of Arabs been stopped there? (Rhetorical question doesn't need an answer).
 

Huh? 

What about the murder of Jews? It's a two-way street, Varche.

12 March 2011: Five members of Jewish family killed in suspected Palestinian militant attack

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/12/west-bank-jewish-family-killed

I wish you showed the same sensitivity when palestinians were under phosphor bombs :-/

And what about the Jewish men women and children who have been ripped limb from limb by suicide bombs? If you try to argue that one form of violent death is more or less bad than another, the argument is lost before you start.

have you ever seen a British wrapping around C4 bombs and exploding him/herself ..

have you ever seen someone exploding self without any Serious reason ? 

.. means "desperation" in my dictionary.. if a stronger force beats you to death this is the only way left to you

YES! We had British citizens blow themselves and many innocent people to smithereens on the London underground and buses not so long ago Cem. It was not because they had a serious reason or were desperate, it was becuase they were brainwashed pawns in a bigger game, just like some Palestinian people are.
Thee have been large sums of money put into the Gaza strip to build decent homes for the people who live in very poor conditions close to the Isreali border, but Hamas wont use the money for its intended purpose, as it suits them to keep these people just as they are, so that they can take the worlds press to the area and show them the "terrible conditions" these people live in, and why they are firing rockets into Israel out of desperation.

[cem_devecioglu]

what you want Nick, do we have to ignore who loose their lifes, including children ?

Honestly , many Israelis dont approve that.. but the right wings..

No, Cem, and you know perfectly well that I do not ignore them. But, equally, you should understand that presenting figures in this way is neither helpful nor proof of right or wrong. One shell which accidentally misses a terrorist and hits civilians including children is deeply shocking and to be avoided. However, using such errors to build up a league table of infant deaths to make a political point cannot be right. It creates an emotive atmosphere which is more likely to extend hostilities rather than shorten them. Indeed, albeit by slightly tortured logic, such emotional outbursts could actually prolong conflict by hardening people's positions and could therefore actually lead to more deaths than would be the case if people worked towards to resolving the underlying issues. In this case, the rights of both Palestinians and Israelis to peacefully co-exist.       

here is a proof of right.. palestinians also have the right to live, eat , be treated as humans in their homes and in their cities like us ..

[Nickbat]

 

here is a proof of right.. palestinians also have the right to live, eat , be treated as humans in their homes and in their cities like us ..

I didn't say they did not have that right. If they stopped attacking Israel and accepted Israel's right to exist, they would soon live in peace.

Same with the Kurds, perhaps?

[albitz]

Getting back to the original point - Make no mistake, the "war" is about regime change, once they started blowing up Gaddafi,s military infrastructure they were past the point of no return, he must now be removed. If he isnt, the rebels and in time the west will suffer his vengeance.
Cameron and co. have to mouth the platitudes about protecting civilians etc as the reason for being there - it is illegal for a British Govt. to forcibly remove the leadership of another country - but they are there to get rid of Gaddafi. Civilian protesters are being shot where they stand in nearby middle eastern countries but we arent "protecting" them, their didtators are more western friendly and not unpredictable loonies like Gaddafi. This is about getting rid of Gaddafi.
I hope they have a good idea what will happen afterwards, because when you have a power vacuum in middle eastern countries it tends to be filled by nutters like Al qaeda.
Its  all very well saying that is for the Libyan people to decide, but will we still be saying that a few years down the line if Libyan Al qaeda terrorists are wreaking revenge on this country ?
The battle in the middle east now imo is about trying to destroy the creeping influnce which is flowing out of Iran, and trying to bring it back to a western friendly region which supplies us with much of our oil.

[Mysteryman]

I just love the way you lot 'know' what's actually going on in the world. Not what's reported on the news or in the vast amount of documentaries on the subjects, but the real, true story behind the headlines.
I wish I was as clever, the world would hold no mystery or fear any more.
I'm sure MI6 would be very grateful if you were all to pass on your vast knowledge and experience.

[cem_devecioglu]

 

here is a proof of right.. palestinians also have the right to live, eat , be treated as humans in their homes and in their cities like us ..

I didn't say they did not have that right. If they stopped attacking Israel and accepted Israel's right to exist, they would soon live in peace.

Same with the Kurds, perhaps?
 

I dont think palestinians conclude that throwing stones, shouting, crying or exploding themselves will end the Israeli existence

what they want is simple..they want their lands and homes back..which is invaded by Israel when the right wings decide that their lands become insufficient for their growing nation..

Kurds.. Deep subject..Let me briefly try to explain .. We dont sweep them from their cities or lands.. They live everywhere.. free to go everywhere.. free to take every job position..  they become  president, minister, chief commander for army and whatever you can imagine.. they fought with us in all wars side by side.. what changed the picture   is that the far east part of my country is poor.. the villages and lands are mostly owned by agha (landowner) .. and they abuse their villagers to the limit.. and despite trials to correct the situation its still the same (also added the igonarnce of past govts).. so they rebel..  and also some outside countries ( no need to give names as its not the subject but you can guess) give money and guns.. and the trouble started 30 years ago..  but its never the same with israeli- palestinian conflict.. as the agha also is kurd