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[albitz]

Max Hastings is a highly respected/talented/ intelligent/thoughtful/reasonable journalist and historian. It does annoy me to see him referred to as "Hitler" by someone without two brain cells to rub together.
How much of his work have you actually read, before deciding to give him the "Hitler" nickname ?

[jerry]

had to work sohave been missing this debate . I made the post because I guess I was getting a bit annoyed with it all-and,like Albs, this is not about "envy", its about a sense of "fairness". As I said, I personally know many people who work in various areas within the vast spectrum we call the "public sector" and I can conclude the following :1)there are a lot of poorly paid workers 2)still too many "middle management" strata 3)there are some who are really hard workers who care about what they do with a passion 4)there are far too many whove been there so long they play the system to reep the most benefits from the least input and 5)there are some very overpaid people too. Now, I hear you all say, this is exactly the same as in any private organization-particularly the bigger ones. Well, as someone already hinted at, when times were good this is undoubtedly true but in todays climate most companies have had to tighten their belts and cut the slack and are far more challenging and demanding of their staff and managers. Now no one likes this but actually you step back and you realize that, whilst it is certainly tougher, you CAN actually reach a point where you can cut staffing levels and increase productivity to achieve the same levels as before. Problem is finding the right "balance" so that the goals are achievable and realistic and your staff/managers not constantly overstretched. My concerns with much of (not all! ) of the public sector is that this is not happening enough-too many staff/managers remain unchallenged with (due to the structure) too few being made personally accountable and too much waste and wasteful practices allowed to continue. Public services are just that-a "service"-but some "private" business practices are still, in my view, essentialto their running.

[albitz]

Its nice to see someone with an honest, objective viewpoint Jerry. As you hinted in your post.The private sector has already had to take the pain(a lot of pain) and its unavoidable that the public sector has to take some pain as well now. It seems to me that the problem is going to be overcoming that deeply entrenched sense of entitlement which seems to have seeped into certain sections of the public sector over time. Just how prevelant this is will become clear I suppose in the coming months.
Doesnt matter which sector your in - theres no such thing as a free lunch, and nor should there be.

[Banjax]

Max Hastings is a highly respected/talented/ intelligent/thoughtful/reasonable journalist and historian. It does annoy me to see him referred to as "Hitler" by someone without two brain cells to rub together.
How much of his work have you actually read, before deciding to give him the "Hitler" nickname ?

Max "Hitler" Hastings is referred to as Hitler because of his knowledge of WWII history, affectionate Private Eye joke 

[Nickbat]

Its nice to see someone with an honest, objective viewpoint Jerry. As you hinted in your post.The private sector has already had to take the pain(a lot of pain) and its unavoidable that the public sector has to take some pain as well now. It seems to me that the problem is going to be overcoming that deeply entrenched sense of entitlement which seems to have seeped into certain sections of the public sector over time. Just how prevelant this is will become clear I suppose in the coming months.
Doesnt matter which sector your in - theres no such thing as a free lunch, and nor should there be.

I quite agree, Albs, Jerry makes good points in his post.

As I am rather tired of pointing out, as the earning sector within the economy, the private sector essentially pays for the public sector.

In an ideal world, the salaries within the two sectors should roughly equate, and that is more the case now than was so a couple of decades ago. However, the two sectors should, for that equality in pay, share similar working practices and benefits. Accordingly, when the country is as impoverished as it is, the public sector has no right to feel any less pain as the private sector. If it is necessary to extend the working age, then we should all, both public and private sectors, accept that. 
 

[albitz]

In the general strike of 1926 the workers were absolutely justified in their actions imo. Those were the days when the Labour movement was a force for great good, and was lead by men (and women) of real conviction and principle who were fighting against real poverty and exploitation on behalf of workers who had no voice outside of the movement and little control over their own lives.
Many annual incomes were not much more than £100 - around £4,500 in todays world. A train driver earned around £156 pa - approx. £7000 at todays prices. London underground drivers apparently earn over £40,000pa these days.
Working hours were much longer,holidays were rare,pensions were almost unheard of, life expectancy was was under 60 years old and retirement (for those who lived that long) was at 70. Genuine health and safety practices and law were at best, in their infancy.
Great progress was achieved by the Labour movement in those times, but somewhere along the way (in the 70,s?) the movement was hijacked by power hungry characters who wanted to run the country, and live the high life off the backs of their members.
To me todays union leaders (Bob Crowbar being the most obvious example) arent fit to wipe the sweat from the brow of the people who lead he movement in days gone by.
Mark Serwotka (PCS UNION) promised his membership when elected that his salary would be the average of their salaries. His salary is currently £90,000 pa plus benefits.
To try to link the action planned for the near future with the actions of those people in 1926 is beyond disgraceful.
These leaders are not just living the high life off the backs of their own members but off the memory and legacy of the genuinely principled and compassionate people who took very different action, for very different reasons all those years ago.

[STMO123]

You can debate until you wet yourself, this little spat will be decided by government and unions and, as usual, public opinion won't matter a jot.

[albitz]

My fear is that this govt wont have the backbone for the battle.

[Banjax]

theres seems to me to be this great sense of schadenfraude when it comes to belittling public sector workers, the fact is the vast majority are underpaid and undervalued, but this theres this feeling of "my job sucks, so everyone elses should too" i dont buy it, and which public sector workers are we wishing to attack here? nurses? nope, police? nope, the armed forces? nope, paramedics? nope, so lets not group everyone together in a large amorphous blob, when you say "Public Sector" are you talking about the guy on little over £12k a year doling out benefit to a claimant making twice that? surely not, or the guy cleaning up the broken glass, kebabs and vomit off the pavement afer a typical friday night? you do it then if its so cushy...oh, not them...so please dont use "Public Sector" when what you really mean is this idea of some middle manager working 9 to 5 in a nice air conditioned office on £50k a year, theres maybe a few of them, but its a very small number and yes people need to be realistic, all people, so maybe MPs could vote for a pay freeze once in a while and reduce their over-inflated pension pot perhaps? or maybe, just maybe the banks took a little look in the mirror and said to themselves "maybe we'll go easy on the bonuses this year as really its taxpayers money" or maybe Tesco, Vodafone, etc should pay a reasonable and fair amount of tax and not the minimum they can legally get away with, after all, its you, me, and every consumer up and down the land that makes them their  massive profits each year, so giving a bit back to the community that so richly rewards you isnt asking too much.....every little helps, right?

so yes, there are some cushy jobs in the public sector, but most arent, most of them are jobs most people wouldnt do for the wages, mostly the half decent pension (actually, in most cases it'll be less than £10k a year...hardly a kings ransom) is really the only perk (unless you're a teacher of course, in which case add half the year off  ) and ask yourself is this government really tackling the villains? or taking on easy targets that the mostly obedient press lap up?

you know what, I dont actually think their should be a general strike, but it'd be easier to accept these cuts if people genuinely thought "we're in this together" instead of this constant pillorying of the "the public sector" maybe it is too large but ask any business in the high street if they care, because i can assure you, all small businesses want (me included) is people in work and spending - thats how you reduce the deficit - a growing, healthy economy - not targeting the lowest paid

and all this rhetoric from mps who've had their snouts in the trough so long that cant even see the irony. I hope the resulting backlash strengthens all unions, now that would be ironic 

[albitz]

An interesting post with some valid points, but it has little to do with the basic facts behind this thread.The money isnt there (and in all likelyhood never will be) to fulfill the current commitments on public sector pensions.
This happened to private sector pensions earlier (because Brown robbed them) and the result was that private sector pensions now depend on the results of how the investment of them turns out. This is perfectly logical and now needs to happen to public sector pensions - except the govt. dont have the balls to actually do it.
The only  alternatives to paying pensions from the money in the persons pension pot is to either take it from someone elses pot, or borrow it and leave future generations with even less in their pot. It really is that simple.

[Vamps]

theres seems to me to be this great sense of schadenfraude when it comes to belittling public sector workers, the fact is the vast majority are underpaid and undervalued, but this theres this feeling of "my job sucks, so everyone elses should too" i dont buy it, and which public sector workers are we wishing to attack here? nurses? nope, police? nope, the armed forces? nope, paramedics? nope, so lets not group everyone together in a large amorphous blob, when you say "Public Sector" are you talking about the guy on little over £12k a year doling out benefit to a claimant making twice that? surely not, or the guy cleaning up the broken glass, kebabs and vomit off the pavement afer a typical friday night? you do it then if its so cushy...oh, not them...so please dont use "Public Sector" when what you really mean is this idea of some middle manager working 9 to 5 in a nice air conditioned office on £50k a year, theres maybe a few of them, but its a very small number and yes people need to be realistic, all people, so maybe MPs could vote for a pay freeze once in a while and reduce their over-inflated pension pot perhaps? or maybe, just maybe the banks took a little look in the mirror and said to themselves "maybe we'll go easy on the bonuses this year as really its taxpayers money" or maybe Tesco, Vodafone, etc should pay a reasonable and fair amount of tax and not the minimum they can legally get away with, after all, its you, me, and every consumer up and down the land that makes them their  massive profits each year, so giving a bit back to the community that so richly rewards you isnt asking too much.....every little helps, right?

so yes, there are some cushy jobs in the public sector, but most arent, most of them are jobs most people wouldnt do for the wages, mostly the half decent pension (actually, in most cases it'll be less than £10k a year...hardly a kings ransom) is really the only perk (unless you're a teacher of course, in which case add half the year off  ) and ask yourself is this government really tackling the villains? or taking on easy targets that the mostly obedient press lap up?

you know what, I dont actually think their should be a general strike, but it'd be easier to accept these cuts if people genuinely thought "we're in this together" instead of this constant pillorying of the "the public sector" maybe it is too large but ask any business in the high street if they care, because i can assure you, all small businesses want (me included) is people in work and spending - thats how you reduce the deficit - a growing, healthy economy - not targeting the lowest paid

and all this rhetoric from mps who've had their snouts in the trough so long that cant even see the irony. I hope the resulting backlash strengthens all unions, now that would be ironic 

Nicely put, stop slagging everyone off, I know a lot of people who work very hard and put up with a lot of abuse, and can not do their Job without working extra hours in the office or working in the evenings at home, for no overtime..........

[albitz]

If you read my post answering that one Mike - its nothing to do with slagging anyone off - apart from the politicians who cynically overmanned the public sector - its to do with economic reality, and fairness to everyone.

[Banjax]

If you read my post answering that one Mike - its nothing to do with slagging anyone off - apart from the politicians who cynically overmanned the public sector - its to do with economic reality, and fairness to everyone.

its a lot of things, but fairness to everyone it certainly isnt....no, as usual the vulnerable and the lowest paid get hit - i believe theres better and more logical ways of dealing with the deficit instead of the usual race to the bottom for pay and conditions 

[albitz]

They have stated that the  position of the lower paid workers will be unchanged/ protected.
Personally, I bleive this needs to be done regardless of the deficit. The deficit just makes it more urgent.

[Marks DTM Calib]

Im not jealous of anyone Steve. Just have a strong sense of whats right and wrong. The public sector can only continue as it is if we either - borrow lots more money,and continue to do so forevermore - which would put us in the same position greece is in now pretty quickly.
Or - I pay even more tax (including my pension fund taxation) so that people who earn far more than me (and most other people) can carry on regardless, even though economic circumstances have changed dramatically. To me, thats wrong.
The public sector used to retire early and have better pensions than the private sector, but earned considerably less than the private sector. Public sector earnings are now higher than the private sector. Something has to give. The private sector is shrinking, the public sector is growing like an out of control monster. It has to stop.

Tell that to binmen, dinner ladies and classroom assistants. Each of them holds down a responsible position and gets paid the minimum wage. Their only compensation is a meagre public pension on top of there meagre state pension.



If you listen to the hype, as most people do, you would think that public servants earn a fortune and get a massive pension....totally unaffordable.
No one listens to the people on the box who tell you that the average public sector pay packet is about £16000 and, when the stock market picks up, the pension fund will be in credit.
It is pure ideology and to portray it as anything else is a lie.



Listen to this for pure, unadulterated shite:

On the telly this morning 'One in nine women now alive will live to be a hundred years old'


So?...... Two in nine will probably not live see the pension they paid into all their life. But that doesn't fit, so....keep it dark.

Dont know where you get that from Steve

The jobs you list are paid at greater than minimum wage and get above average pensions (the wife is in one of those occupations).

The reality is w ALL need to work longer as we are ALL living longer. If you want to retire early then you must work harder and save harder.

Teachers etc are VERY well paid with good job security, a very generous pension scheme (which woudl hit you in the pocket for well over 20% if you wanted the same in a private scheme) and ahev receevied very generous pay increases year on year.

I hear them on the TV moaning and saying they have not had a rise this year and I just think, welcome to the real world!

Reality is they will have to take it on the chin as in these times of hardship, nobody outside of the profesion is going to back them!