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[jerry]

I hear what both BJ and Vamps are saying, and agree with the points made, but ,as Albs says, Im not  simply slagging off the "public "sector at all. There are an awful lot of overworked/underpaid and dedicated people within that sector. All I am saying is that there also continues to be a lot of waste and wasteful practices with too many people expecting themselves to remain exempt from the economic pressures around them. Re my thoughts on unions, well, like a lot of us on here I am old enough to remember the 70s  but unions like anything else must evolve. For far too long through the 50s/60s/70s Labour governments ignored true economic realities and let the big unions dictate to them, allowing them power that ultimately benefited no-one . Thatcher, for all her many faults, probably did (in my opinion)us all a favour in curtailing their power. Anyone on here like the idea of "closed shops"? Or maybe remember the "jollies" that some reps enjoyed? ANY form of "power" can corrupt. We too easily forget that its not just the capitalists who are susceptible and dedicated to their own self interests. BUT, whilst not buying into the political links with Labour, I firmly believe in the need for trade unions. So,so much of what we now take forgranted within employment law is down to the hard work of the unions and it cannot be allowed to be eroded. And these apects of employment law are all about fairness and equal opportunities. Not over the top political correctness, just basic rights that we should all be entitled to. Much of the present economic crisis can be laid at New Labour's door but I still believe that the Tories are still a party of too many "Im alright Jacks", already trying to overturn things like the minimum wage and Sunday trading laws. I totally believe in what I do as a rep. in trying my best to enure my members are treated fairly and legally. But gone are the days if you think a rep will protect your underperformance just because you are a union member.

[jerry]

oh, almost forgot, "Power to the people!"

[aaronjb]

As for the pensions increase, my missus already pays £370 a month and this rise will take it closer to £500. Add that to the £1350 a month income tax and £350 NI and it's adds up to five or six claimants she is keeping in fags and beer.

That £370 a month is what gets her the final salary pension? (Soon to be £500)

That's not a bad deal if so - judging by the tax amounts she earns about the same as I do and pays in about the same to a pension pot; mine will be worth about a quarter of my salary by the time I come to retire.. assuming the ass doesn't drop further out of the stock market, of course.

Not that I expect to ever retire, personally.. I fully expect to work till I drop - but that's my choice since I didn't save more and spend less

[I_want_an_Omega]

As for the pensions increase, my missus already pays £370 a month and this rise will take it closer to £500. Add that to the £1350 a month income tax and £350 NI and it's adds up to five or six claimants she is keeping in fags and beer.

That £370 a month is what gets her the final salary pension? (Soon to be £500)

That's not a bad deal if so - judging by the tax amounts she earns about the same as I do and pays in about the same to a pension pot; mine will be worth about a quarter of my salary by the time I come to retire.. assuming the ass doesn't drop further out of the stock market, of course.

Not that I expect to ever retire, personally.. I fully expect to work till I drop - but that's my choice since I didn't save more and spend less

These are hardly average incomes that are being discussed here 

[tunnie]

Think I get about one of the best pensions outside of the public sector, I pay in 4%, company pays in 8%. What that actually equates to, I have no idea 

Still can't complain, I've just had a 4.5% pay rise and 10% bonus 

[I_want_an_Omega]

I am now in receipt of a final salary pension that I paid ito for 30 years. 11 percent of the top line of my salary every month. Employer (local council, effectively) paid in not one brass razoo. I am getting my own money back.

Not.......

The pension monies I receive on the 15th of the month are the monies taken from the wages of those still serving as police officers. No pot of monies getting swollen by investments over the years, just straight through the accounts of the council.

So no, not all public sector employees are in receipt of public sector cash......

That in no way represents the total cost. About 10 years ago I did some work with a number of Police Authority Finance Directors. At the time their average payment to pensioners was 24% of the total Police budget and increasing year by year. Yes, there is a partial contribution to this by the serving officers 11%, but the vast majority still comes from their combined income stream - i.e local authority and any central government contribution.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong - just making a statement of fact.

[I_want_an_Omega]

Think I get about one of the best pensions outside of the public sector, I pay in 4%, company pays in 8%. What that actually equates to, I have no idea 

Still can't complain, I've just had a 4.5% pay rise and 10% bonus 

It's a "money purchase" scheme - my mate works for the same company. Basically the (tax free) money goes into an investment pot and at your chosen retirement age (currently minimum 55), the total is used to purchase an annuity - i.e. a pension.

So, lets project forward, add in some promotional payrises and inflation and wind the clock forward about 35 years or so.

If annuity rates stay as they are (i.e. about 5%) then, if you want to have a pension of say £50k p.a then your "pot" will have to be worth a staggering £1,000,000 by that time. Yes a million pounds.  :-?

I kid you not.

So, young man. Work hard and SAVE for the next 30 or so years.

[albitz]

When final salary type pension schemes were introduced there were 9 people in work to provide for each pensioner. That figure has reduced to 3 and is heading towards 2.
Therein lies the unavoidable problem, and its a problem which the dinosaurs who are at the head of the public sector unions refuse to recognise the existence of.

[aaronjb]

These are hardly average incomes that are being discussed here 

Oh I know - I was surprised, actually.

Think I get about one of the best pensions outside of the public sector, I pay in 4%, company pays in 8%. What that actually equates to, I have no idea 

Still can't complain, I've just had a 4.5% pay rise and 10% bonus 

If it's anything like mine then, as Robert says, surprisingly little! I pay in 5% and the company pays 5% - at 65, that will be worth a staggering £12,000 a year.

Go me.

[jerry]

what is truly frightening is the number of young people without a pension. God knows I started too late with mine but its hard trying to get across to people the importance of taking advantage of company schemes. Even the poor ones are better than nothing not least because the employer contributes as well. I did an open learning pack in conjunction with my Union on the various types of pensions and it certainly highlighted the issues for me.Guess its hard at their age to envisage being ours

[aaronjb]

I didn't start my pension until I was .. 26 or 27 I think - as you say, far too late.

Still, you live and learn, as they say. Some of us learn slowly, admittedly. Like me. 

[STMO123]

Im not jealous of anyone Steve. Just have a strong sense of whats right and wrong. The public sector can only continue as it is if we either - borrow lots more money,and continue to do so forevermore - which would put us in the same position greece is in now pretty quickly.
Or - I pay even more tax (including my pension fund taxation) so that people who earn far more than me (and most other people) can carry on regardless, even though economic circumstances have changed dramatically. To me, thats wrong.
The public sector used to retire early and have better pensions than the private sector, but earned considerably less than the private sector. Public sector earnings are now higher than the private sector. Something has to give. The private sector is shrinking, the public sector is growing like an out of control monster. It has to stop.

Tell that to binmen, dinner ladies and classroom assistants. Each of them holds down a responsible position and gets paid the minimum wage. Their only compensation is a meagre public pension on top of there meagre state pension.



If you listen to the hype, as most people do, you would think that public servants earn a fortune and get a massive pension....totally unaffordable.
No one listens to the people on the box who tell you that the average public sector pay packet is about £16000 and, when the stock market picks up, the pension fund will be in credit.
It is pure ideology and to portray it as anything else is a lie.



Listen to this for pure, unadulterated shite:

On the telly this morning 'One in nine women now alive will live to be a hundred years old'


So?...... Two in nine will probably not live see the pension they paid into all their life. But that doesn't fit, so....keep it dark.

Dont know where you get that from Steve

The jobs you list are paid at greater than minimum wage and get above average pensions (the wife is in one of those occupations).

The reality is w ALL need to work longer as we are ALL living longer. If you want to retire early then you must work harder and save harder.

Teachers etc are VERY well paid with good job security, a very generous pension scheme (which woudl hit you in the pocket for well over 20% if you wanted the same in a private scheme) and ahev receevied very generous pay increases year on year.

I hear them on the TV moaning and saying they have not had a rise this year and I just think, welcome to the real world!

Reality is they will have to take it on the chin as in these times of hardship, nobody outside of the profesion is going to back them!

I get that from the' Let's wind Albs O'Flaherty up' book of quotes Mark. As I said, before that lad was run over, I was getting ready to give him a hard time, but events over took me.

[STMO123]

And with regards to teachers not getting a pay rise, a lot of then get round that by moving up the pay scale.

[Varche]

These are hardly average incomes that are being discussed here 

Oh I know - I was surprised, actually.

Think I get about one of the best pensions outside of the public sector, I pay in 4%, company pays in 8%. What that actually equates to, I have no idea 

Still can't complain, I've just had a 4.5% pay rise and 10% bonus 

If it's anything like mine then, as Robert says, surprisingly little! I pay in 5% and the company pays 5% - at 65, that will be worth a staggering £12,000 a year.

Go me.

It sounds a lot but it isn't. Firstly you will get taxed on every penny of it as your state pension will have taken up most/all of your tax allowances.

Secondly that figure no doubt is based on no future indexing - in other words same figure per year till you die. If it is index linked then you might get £10,000 per annum. Then the indexing will be at a crappy rate not the one that our MPs get (do as we say not as we do)

Thirdly when you retire and a loaf of bread is £10, a litre of fuel £10 and standing charges on your energy bills £5,000 per annum it isn't going to go anywhere.

My advice(and I ain't an FA) is either to save everything you can afford each month and more for retirement OR blow it each month and "let the state look after you". Depends when you think you are going to die.

[tunnie]

Think I get about one of the best pensions outside of the public sector, I pay in 4%, company pays in 8%. What that actually equates to, I have no idea 

Still can't complain, I've just had a 4.5% pay rise and 10% bonus 

It's a "money purchase" scheme - my mate works for the same company. Basically the (tax free) money goes into an investment pot and at your chosen retirement age (currently minimum 55), the total is used to purchase an annuity - i.e. a pension.

So, lets project forward, add in some promotional payrises and inflation and wind the clock forward about 35 years or so.

If annuity rates stay as they are (i.e. about 5%) then, if you want to have a pension of say £50k p.a then your "pot" will have to be worth a staggering £1,000,000 by that time. Yes a million pounds.  :-?

I kid you not.

So, young man. Work hard and SAVE for the next 30 or so years.

Thats for the clarification, I do indeed need to save hard! But what I have done is buy my own property first, I did not want to reach pension age and not have my own house, a friend, refuses to buy his own place, he will always rent. Something I remind him, that his pension will also have to pay for rent!

I didn't want to be on a pension and be in that situation, so hopefully* come retirement, my pension will just need to pay living cost bills.